Quote from: joewolzDoes everyone have Clinton on Ignore or something?

Not yet.

Quote from: Levi KornelsenNote, I'm not asking why you're making jabs at all.   But why are you being subtle?  If you think I'm an idiot that argues badly, just say so, man.

I was leaving it open that this was just a slip on your part. But if you're for burning all the bridges here and now go for it. You've made a excellent start.

Quote from: gleichmanI was leaving it open that this was just a slip on your part. But if you're for burning all the bridges here and now go for it. You've made a excellent start.

It's a forum.  On the internet.  Hosted by the Pundit.  For talking about games.  Which I play and talk about for fun.

That's all it is.

You're asserting that I should take it more seriously.  I don't intend to.

Quote from: Levi KornelsenIt's the sci-fi version of a fantasy game.

Does it use the same rules?

Quote from: JongWKDoes it use the same rules?

A modified set.

Quote from: Levi KornelsenYou're asserting that I should take it more seriously.  I don't intend to.

You already did.

And that wasn't want I was asking you to do. Rather I was asking for you to be either serious or not upfront. It prevents headaches down the line- for you.

Quote from: Levi KornelsenMethods of publication.  Which is the part I find most significant, as I've said.

Almost none of your original points seemed to have much to do with methods of publication, to me.  

Many commercial role-playing publishers do promote their games with enthusiasm online.  Look at all the Ptolus hype.  But I've seen little correlation between writer enthusiasm and success in the mainstream.  d20 Gamma World?  Secret of Zir'An?  Tribe 8?  Yes, Exalted got a lot of writer enthusism, too, but I don't think that's ultimately why it's had some success.

The books are cheap because the profits (and, honestly, quality) are low, not because there is any efficiency in being small but because there is no conventional marketing (e.g., print ads in Dragon) and because the authors expect little profit.  The absence of supplements isn't entirely true because Indie games do have them.  Sorcerer and Sword?  Burning Empires?  So where the buy-in is low (and as I pointed out earlier, it isn't always low), it's low because of the uncompensated effort of authors who are publishing as a labor of love, not to profit from it.  The low prices are subsidized by the authors' day jobs (or their spouses' jobs or parents, etc.).

Having a difficult time actually finding a game and swapping stories about the experience and lay experience is not  something the mainstream is all that interested in, in my experience.  Why do you think this is a selling point outside of the Forge faithful?  The same with controversy.  Do you really think the broader gaming community cares?

Quote from: gleichmanYou already did.

And that wasn't want I was asking you to do. Rather I was asking for you to be either serious or not upfront. It prevents headaches down the line- for you.

oh.....geez, here we go.:gnasher:

get off your high horse already. :talktothehand:

Quote from: Mcrowget off your high horse already. :talktothehand:

No thanks, I like the view from up here.

Quote from: Levi KornelsenA modified set.

Ok.

Somehow, I have this gut feeling that games like P20 and BW tap the huge pool of fantasy players, usually getting people who want to try something new. The market is big and already there. Games like DotV, on the other hand, appeal to an entirely different niche market.

Quote from: John MorrowAlmost none of your original points seemed to have much to do with methods of publication, to me.

I hesitate to use this word, since it's loaded in some circles.  But, still...

Marketing is part of the publication strategy for an RPG.  And all of my points were about marketing.

Quote from: John MorrowWhy do you think this is a selling point outside of the Forge faithful?  The same with controversy.  Do you really think the broader gaming community cares?

I give you the Kool-Aid Point.

Quote from: gleichmanYou already did.

And that wasn't want I was asking you to do. Rather I was asking for you to be either serious or not upfront. It prevents headaches down the line- for you.

So, you'd like me to work towards being consistent by your standards?

Okay, funny.

Quote from: Levi KornelsenMarketing is part of the publication strategy for an RPG.  And all of my points were about marketing.

And none of the methods you talked about, if you think them through, scale past niche vanity publishing.  And that's why most big publishers aren't doing what you suggest.

Quote from: Levi KornelsenI give you the Kool-Aid Point.

I think that article confuses a superficial side-effect for a driving force.  I'm a Mac owner and I have no delusions that all the enthusiasm of Mac owners and all the hatred of Macs by Windows lovers didn't stop the Mac's market share from dropping below 5%.  And if you want to see a wonderful example of confusing hype for success, see Snakes on a Plane.

QuoteI could fill a page with examples, but that's the best one on hand - Indie gaming isn't all about the one type.

I know very well. But my point was that "them Thematics" have a new product life cycle. And as I understood it, at least BE is following the basic recipe of them Thematics niche:

- low prep
- input from all participants ["Distributed Authoring"]
- One book
- Forge-based publicity
- GM as a player
- heavily character centered
- heavily navel-gazing/ conncerned with personal themes EDIT: (not meant in bad blood, but I don't know how to put it better; call me an anal retentive bean counter wargamer, if that helps )

Sure there are totally mainstream indie products. But in this thread nobody ever discussed the D&D supplementary pdf market, which is even indier than the Indians, as they are even independent from the Forge and have no one to talk to, but their three customers (Hey Guys! I love your stuff! It was me and my friends who bought Feast of Crows! *Wave*)
Or EXP. That's some kewl shit, and rightfully selling well.

So my point was: What is called indie in this thread is nearly exclusively thematic, and that is a new thing, and thusly is just reaching it's peak in the product life cycle.

Quote from: John MorrowAnd none of the methods you talked about, if you think them through, scale past niche vanity publishing.

Really?  Tell me why not.

Quote from: John MorrowAnd if you want to see a wonderful example of confusing hype for success, see Snakes on a Plane.

I did see it.

And I loved it, much as I also loved The Lost Skeleton of Cadavera, or Jesus Christ, Vampire Hunter.

The movie also made significantly more money than it cost, in a healthy industry.

Which doesn't line it up real well, to me, as an example or counter-example to games that are pulling more profit-per-unit in a (mostly cottage) industry that is, on the whole, losing it.

Maybe I'm missing your point, though.