Quote from: gleichmanI don't need it, the person saying "I don't believe" you has the win unless and until the other person making the assertion provides such data.

Absolutely.

They may thus bask in their victory, accrue medals, and commision a flag in their own honor, which shall be heralded to the ends of the earth.

...

More seriously, if you made the opposing assertion (that the presence, growth, and techniques used for sale of Indie games are not and will not be of significance to game designers), you'd have a hell of a time proving that, too, and you've made exactly zero attempts in that direction.

Your only real defense thus far is "That's not how debate works!"; which, while generally true, is kind of hollow.  We are, after all, basically just shooting the shit on a forum about games, on the internet.

@John Morrow: You totally nailed it. I wanna stress another point though:

The so called "indie-games" are nearly all catering to a specific need, which hadn't been adressed before. That's why you see a rise in sales. Once the market is thorougly fed with thematic games, the sales will not rise. Instead of stealing sales from other games , they created their own niche.
but I doubt, for abovementioned reasons, that this niche will grow very large in terms of market share percentage.

Never forget, it's a buyers market.

Quote from: gleichmanSigh.

I don't need it, the person saying "I don't believe" you has the win unless and until the other person making the assertion provides such data.

I know believers in UFOs, Bigfoot,  and Magic Crystals would like it to be otherwise, but at least for now this old pillar of logic holds sway in western tradition.

No offense to you, but I'm starting to think that thre is no way anyone could prove to you that what they say is true not matter what they do.:confused:

We are talking about RPGs here not national economics, so I don't see the need to hire an accounting service to prove the point.

The bottom line small press/indie games are selling more now than they ever have. Should WotC or any of the big guys worry? Nope, the indie/small press segment could increase by four as a whole and likely still only be 10% of what the big guys make.

It's like comparing the PC to a Mac. Both are great, but Mac really is no threat to the Pc market share. I don't think we need detailed accounting for that.

Quote from: SettembriniOnce the market is thorougly fed with thematic games, the sales will not rise. Instead of stealing sales from other games , they created their own niche.
but I doubt, for abovementioned reasons, that this niche will grow very large in terms of market share percentage.

Not all Indie-style games are thematic.

For a ready-to-hand example, I point you to Perfect 20 - which, by all accounts, is Indie.  I mean, it won an Indie games award.

I could fill a page with examples, but that's the best one on hand - Indie gaming isn't all about the one type.

Quote from: Levi KornelsenMore seriously, if you made the opposing assertion (that the presence, growth, and techniques used for sale of Indie games are not and will not be of significance to game designers), you'd have a hell of a time proving that, too, and you've made exactly zero attempts in that direction.

The difference is that Brian didn't start a thread titled "Why Indie Games Won't Grow".

Quote from: Levi KornelsenNot all Indie-style games are thematic.

For a ready-to-hand example, I point you to Perfect 20 - which, by all accounts, is Indie.  I mean, it won an Indie games award.

I like Perfect 20, but it's a free game and counts as a d20 variant. I think Settembrini's point stands.

Quote from: JongWKI like Perfect 20, but it's a free game and counts as a d20 variant. I think Settembrini's point stands.

Burning Wheel, then.

Quote from: Levi KornelsenI could fill a page with examples, but that's the best one on hand - Indie gaming isn't all about the one type.

So what sort of generalizations can you make about a category that includes all different types of things?

Quote from: John MorrowSo what sort of generalizations can you make about a category that includes all different types of things?

Methods of publication.  Which is the part I find most significant, as I've said.

Quote from: Levi KornelsenMore seriously, if you made the opposing assertion (that the presence, growth, and techniques used for sale of Indie games are not and will not be of significance to game designers), you'd have a hell of a time proving that, too, and you've made exactly zero attempts in that direction.

I would indeed be the fool if I made such a claim without backing data (or at least stating it as nothing more than an personal opinion).

But I didn't make such a claim. I didn't start such a thread. I haven't claimed that anyone has "won".

I leave the playing of fool to others on this point.

Quote from: Levi KornelsenYour only real defense thus far is "That's not how debate works!"; which, while generally true, is kind of hollow.  We are, after all, basically just shooting the shit on a forum about games, on the internet.

I hardly think pointing out elemental failures in logic and debate is hollow. Rather I would hope that it would inspire better threads in the future where unfounded claims and personal opinon are not miss-represented as objective facts.

Additionally, it all would have never been a point raised by me- if you hadn't launched a hollow thread to begin with. If "shooting the shit" was your goal instead of serious analysis- you could have phased your opening post so that was obvious.

Perhaps next time you will.

Quote from: Levi KornelsenBurning Wheel, then.

I'm sorry, but I don't know anything about it. :idunno:

Quote from: Levi KornelsenBurning Wheel, then.

If Burning Wheel is all you'll ever need (remember that "complete" claim), why Burning Empire?  Is that a supplement or a whole new version of the game?

Quote from: John MorrowIf Burning Wheel is all you'll ever need (remember that "complete" claim), why Burning Empire?  Is that a supplement or a whole new version of the game?

It's the sci-fi version of a fantasy game.

Quote from: Clinton R. NixonAs an independent publisher, I don't get Luke's sales - mine are in the hundreds of books each year, not thousands. What I have seen, though, which is just totally not the way RPGs are traditionally sold: I sell more of each book each year. I released a game called Donjon in 2002. I sold more of it this year than I did in 2002. The Shadow of Yesterday has sold 1.5 times as many copies this year than it did by September of last year.

For the sales curve to go up year after year instead of down is a complete reversal of what we've seen before in publishing.

Does everyone have Clinton on Ignore or something?  You shouldn't do that, he's a nice guy, we've had dinner together...and his game rocks!

I'm not surprised you've been seeing more sales every year, your product is coming into its own.  I'm also not surprised that any publisher is seeing positive growth, especially when you're not selling non-periodical products using a periodical model...like most "supplement string" RPGs out there.

Really, couldn't White Wolf just do a subscription based perfect bound magazine (ala The Rifter) as a monthly to cover all of there new books?  I wonder if any company has considered that.

Quote from: gleichmanI leave the playing of fool to others on this point.

Why the subtle jabs?

Note, I'm not asking why you're making jabs at all.   But why are you being subtle?  If you think I'm an idiot that argues badly, just say so, man.

Here, I'll make it easy; I think you've got a nice thick wooden shaft lodged up in your colon.  I also think that removing it would probably help.