Indie games - whther Forge-style (such as Vincent Baker's stuff), small-press (like Better Mousetrap), or lone goofball (like me) - are slowly gaining more online attention, are starting to show up in stores...  ...They're growing, while almost every other part of the tabletop RPG industry is shinking.

Let me tell you a few of the reasons that I think this is so.

• Because the writers of these products are personally enthusiastic about them, and that enthusiasm is contagious.
  
• Because the games are individually cheap, and don't require supplements; the buy-in is low, low, low.
• Because the fans of these games can swap stories about hunting them down and getting them, and about how the different games affect their play.
• Because there's some small controversy, as people react negatively to some of them.  Many of these game provoke a reaction, and that sells games.

There's no reason I can see why the few notable-sized companies can't duplicate most of that.  What confuses me is why they haven't.

Your thoughts?

I always figured Indie Gaming was growing so fast because we pile the fertilizer on higher and deeper...

-mice

Quote from: Levi KornelsenIndie games - whther Forge-style (such as Vincent Baker's stuff), small-press (like Better Mousetrap), or lone goofball (like me) - are slowly gaining more online attention, are starting to show up in stores...  ...They're growing, while almost every other part of the tabletop RPG industry is shinking.

Let me tell you a few of the reasons that I think this is so.

• Because the writers of these products are personally enthusiastic about them, and that enthusiasm is contagious.
  
• Because the games are individually cheap, and don't require supplements; the buy-in is low, low, low.
• Because the fans of these games can swap stories about hunting them down and getting them, and about how the different games affect their play.
• Because there's some small controversy, as people react negatively to some of them.  Many of these game provoke a reaction, and that sells games.

There's no reason I can see why the few notable-sized companies can't duplicate most of that.  What confuses me is why they haven't.

Your thoughts?

I think that a lot of it has to do with small publishers being more aproachable. We see many of them here and on other forums. If we have question about a game we can post it and get an response directly from the writer. They are way more enthusiastic than big publishers are and seem to care more of what their fans think. To be honest I'm much more likely to give a publshers game a try if I had the chance to chat with them online or @ a con.

I think that the sole reason is that it's far easier to be self published these days.

I'm ready to be proven wrong though. :cool:

Quote from: Levi KornelsenThere's no reason I can see why the few notable-sized companies can't duplicate most of that.  What confuses me is why they haven't.

Your thoughts?

Well, it's not clear to me that large-sized companies have something to gain by this.  That is, if Mongoose Publishing were to release a game like Polaris -- would it sell better than the Conan RPG?  Or would it sell like, well, Polaris?  The sales of Polaris are absolutely terrific for a single hobbyist author.  However, I suspect it would be considered a waste of effort for someone who is trying to make her daily wages from publishing games.  

In other words, the market may need a year or two of more growth before it becomes worthwhile for professional publishers.  :-)  

I would note that Guardians of Order did have their "Magnum Opus" line that had been active since 2002, which produced games like Swords, Hearts, and Flowers.  However, in the age of electronic publishing, I don't think that indie designers really need a large company to get their work out.

I think the original assumption is basically in error, i.e. growth in the indie market is not significant.

You have a market in decline due to over-publication. In such an event you'll see all sort of short term blips on the radar that will quickly fade from notice as various groups attempt to side-step the cause of the decline.

Such blips are ego-building and may even be worthwhile to the small fish of the sea, but they are weak ground indeed to base a significant business on.

Quote from: Levi KornelsenYour thoughts?

Define "growing" in terms of number of units sold.  How many copies of these games are really selling and does it come anywhere near close to offsetting the number of gamers dropping away from buying mainstream games?

Oh, I wish Indie publishers the best of luck, but don't confuse Internet buzz for a trend curve that's going to keep growing and don't confuse copies on store shelves for sales (I make it a point to talk to game shop owners and clerks about sales).  

Don't think that this is the first time there has been a lot of Internet buzz for a game or the first time that enthusiastic publishers have been able to get some sales.  Fudge?  Theatrix?  Battlelords of the 23rd Century?  Even mainstream games like Torg, Fuzion, and Tribe 8 eventually dropped off the radar.  What I want to know is why you think this batch of Indie games will be able to rise up being low-sale niche products when plenty of others never did, of if you even think they will.

I think some people here are getting the wrong idea. Yes the market is growing, and growing fast. I can support this with my own sales figures since 2002. No, the Indie games market is not yet large enough to offset the number of gamers dropping out of the traditional market. This doesn't matter because Indie distribution methods are not keyed to Big Press distribution methods. Indie publishers thrive on fan bases too small to interest big publishers because they take advantage of Long Tail markets, pdf sales, pod printing, cooperative marketing, and other tricks the Big Press doesn't use or doesn't use well.

-mice

Quote from: gleichmanI think the original assumption is basically in error, i.e. growth in the indie market is not significant.

You have a market in decline due to over-publication. In such an event you'll see all sort of short term blips on the radar that will quickly fade from notice as various groups attempt to side-step the cause of the decline.

I have to agree with you on this point.   The market is flooded with games both mainstream and indie.

There is a certain amount of the "pie" for everyone to take a bite out of and there are only so many gamer dollars to go around.   I am sure this is a part of why the industry is hurting right now (clearly not the only reason).

Well, the indies mostly sell to each other, but there are more of each other to sell to, now.

I personally suspect the real reason is that we now have a convergence of technologies- PDF and lulu and internet and online/web-based billing and order-fulfillment places. Imagine if you had to do all of that by mail-order or advertising in the backs of catalogs or driving a boxload of books from state to state. That would suck! But every once in a while, someone came up with something amazing and it took off, anyway.

The original indie RPG was called "Dungeons and Dragons". It was hand assembled by three friends in a basement in 1974 and it was hugely popular, despite a lack of (haha) marketing. "Vampire" was pretty much indie when it first came out, too. Likewise, Palladium, HERO, etc.

Arrrgh! The sister thread over on RPGNet is so full of snark you can walk on it. If it wasn't for baileywolf - and keeping in touch with my customers - I think I'd be happier leaving that place.

-mice

Quote from: Abyssal MawThe original indie RPG was called "Dungeons and Dragons". It was hand assembled by three friends in a basement in 1974 and it was hugely popular, despite a lack of (haha) marketing. "Vampire" was pretty much indie when it first came out, too. Likewise, Palladium, HERO, etc.

"Indie" generally means "creator-owned".  This is distinct from small press.  Small press will often have someone publishing work authored by someone else -- so the person who wrote the words doesn't necessarily control how the final product turns out.  

So, I'm open to D&D and Palladium being indie when they first came out.  However, while White Wolf was certainly small-press when Vampire came out, I suspect that they were not indie.  There were over 20 people in the credits, and I doubt that authors Mark, Graeme, Tom, Lisa, and Stewart had control over production.  It also had marketing.  There were glossy leaflets promoting the game sent out advertising the game before its release.

Quote from: flyingmiceArrrgh! The sister thread over on RPGNet is so full of snark you can walk on it.

Oh yeah.  That'll be getting nasty quick. I see threads like that, and to put it in Destiny of an Emperor terms:

Quote from: jhkim"Indie" generally means "creator-owned".  This is distinct from small press.  Small press will often have someone publishing work authored by someone else -- so the person who wrote the words doesn't necessarily control how the final product turns out.  

So, I'm open to D&D and Palladium being indie when they first came out.  However, while White Wolf was certainly small-press when Vampire came out, I suspect that they were not indie.  There were over 20 people in the credits, and I doubt that authors Mark, Graeme, Tom, Lisa, and Stewart had control over production.  It also had marketing.  There were glossy leaflets promoting the game sent out advertising the game before its release.

Levi specifically included Small Press publishers in his "Indie" label.

-mice

Quote from: jhkim... However, while White Wolf was certainly small-press when Vampire came out, I suspect that they were not indie.  There were over 20 people in the credits, and I doubt that authors Mark, Graeme, Tom, Lisa, and Stewart had control over production.  It also had marketing.  There were glossy leaflets promoting the game sent out advertising the game before its release.

One thing I notice is that a lot of these creator owned things borrow systems back and forth from one another and list each other in the credits as well. SO I guess I have trouble even with the idea of "creator owned" in some cases.