Quote from: gleichman;532625CO was never tied to the HERO System mechanics, only the medicore Champions setting (with much of the original settings edition being off limits).

Of course the main reason for that was that in order to present the typical genre tropes, the Champions Universe stole pretty much all its stuff from DC and Marvel.  

JG

Quote from: danbuter;532408Both are good games, and the core rules are fairly simple (3d6 roll low). However, they both offer tons and tons of options. This is kind of like having a $10,000 mechanics tool chest with all the doodads, when all you really need is a ratchet set. While everything you can possibly want is in there somewhere, you have to basically know ALL of the rules in order to find the things you want, and to know how the various skills or powers you are not allowing will affect a game.

While you can maybe get away with a general knowledge of stuff to make your decisions, you still have to read everything. I think many people who make the argument that the "base rules are really simple" just completely miss that fact.

What also has really hurt both games, IMO, is that they are now split up into two separate books. Instead of having everything organized in just one rulebook, you now have to have both books open if your running combats (unless you're one of those people who has actually memorized everything). This is clumsy to handle at the table, and also makes looking up rules during play a major hassle. Especially if you think a rule is in book two, but is actually tucked away in a powers description in book one.

This is one of the areas that D&D has improved. By moving characters and combat into the same book (and lately even treasure), players and the DM can find everything much more quickly, if there's a question during play. Hero and Gurps are moving in the opposite direction, and I believe that's a big mistake.

I think it just boils down to this:
We have a lot of games now that do the same things simpler, faster and better.

Quote from: DominikSchwager;532805I think it just boils down to this:
We have a lot of games now that do the same things simpler, faster and better.

I don't know about the "better" part.

Quote from: DominikSchwager;532805I think it just boils down to this:
We have a lot of games now that do the same things simpler, faster and better.

The D20 with it multi-classing rules, design, feats, and skills pretty much killed one of the main reasons for switching to GURPS. The ability to customize your character the way you want it. In the 25 years I been running GURPS that was the #1 appeal to gamers looking to switch away from AD&D (1st or 2nd).

Now GURPS still has more customization options but now it is a matter of inches rather than the gulf that existed before.

I thinks gurps is hurt by reputation more than anything else. It may be a bit unfair but I often hear it described as a game for people who like math or engineering (and in fairness the three people I know who really, really like gurps are your typicial math/engineer types-----actually one of my highschool buddies who was into gurps was a literature and film guy). Personally I have liked GURPS when I have played it. And I like that the core system is so easy to customize. The historical setting books are all quite solid (though they sometimes cover too broad a period for my taste they are great if you are building a fantasy campaign inspired by historical cutltures). However anytime I have suggested GURPS it is usually met with very little enthusiasm.

I really enjoy the GURPS system and enjoy running it. Over half of our playing group doesn't like it in spite of loving the control in character creation. The simple reason:  

NO LEVELS

There is no rush of adrenaline as your character suddenly DINGS and gains all new abilities and generally becomes more badass all around.

Even though steady gains of character points that can be used to improve immediately without waiting for levels to be gained are more immediately gratifying and useful, the lack of level climbing is the big turn off.

I don't really get it.

Quote from: Exploderwizard;532827Even though steady gains of character points that can be used to improve immediately without waiting for levels to be gained are more immediately gratifying and useful, the lack of level climbing is the big turn off.

I don't really get it.

I'm guessing that's a common reaction for folks coming from D&D-ish level-based games (or video games like WOW). It really is a bit of a Pavlovian setup I think, "How do I know I'm playing if I don't see my character improve?"
Conversely, there are some people, like myself, who were always annoyed by levels... and so jumped ship as soon as we spotted games that tossed them out.
Maybe you could buy a jug of glitter and an air horn to blast at them whenever they improve a skill? Hand out cupcakes? A coupon for a blowjob down at Poontang Village?

Quote from: Exploderwizard;532827I really enjoy the GURPS system and enjoy running it. Over half of our playing group doesn't like it in spite of loving the control in character creation. The simple reason:  

NO LEVELS

There is no rush of adrenaline as your character suddenly DINGS and gains all new abilities and generally becomes more badass all around.

Even though steady gains of character points that can be used to improve immediately without waiting for levels to be gained are more immediately gratifying and useful, the lack of level climbing is the big turn off.

I don't really get it.

Take X Template and create a series of 10 or 20 pt level packages as an add-on to that template. They get nothing until they gain a "package" worth of points and then they can buy the new level packages.

Quote from: Simlasa;532831Maybe you could buy a jug of glitter and an air horn to blast at them whenever they improve a skill? Hand out cupcakes? A coupon for a blowjob down at Poontang Village?

:rotfl:

I have actually made cupcakes for our group, but not as a level up treat, just to munch on.

Quote from: estar;532839Take X Template and create a series of 10 or 20 pt level packages as an add-on to that template. They get nothing until they gain a "package" worth of points and then they can buy the new level packages.

I did that many years ago when developing DURPS*


*The Dweomercraefting Universal Roleplaying System

Quote from: gleichman;532556A breaking point came when Steven Long decided for 6th edition that he was now God and that he would change major sections of the Rules (including dropping support for maps and minis)

That sounds awesome. I might actually play that. Please explain more. I thought the system was really tied to inches and all that.

Quote from: 1989;532846That sounds awesome. I might actually play that. Please explain more. I thought the system was really tied to inches and all that.

Nothing to explain, support for it is gone and it's no longer a table top role-playing game.

And there's no reason for a complex character/item system as well. Use the book as a paper weight.

Quote from: gleichman;532847Nothing to explain, support for it is gone and it's no longer a table top role-playing game.

And there's no reason for a complex character/item system as well. Use the book as a paper weight.

So, what did they do to the inches? How are things measured now, such that a grid cannot be used?

Weird you say it's not longer a RPG? How so?

Quote from: gleichman;532752One rule book was the one benefit, the core 4th edition was missing a lot of good things covered in 4th edition expansion. Given the choice, I always want one rulebook to cover the rules 5th was the first edition to almost do just that.

Beyond that, 5th brought little to the table (and introduced the beginning of a number of design mistakes by Steven Long).

I liked 5e for its expansion books (see my earlier statement about setting books not being done right until 5e).  I liked some of the pre-defined perks/advantages/etc. of 5e.  I didn't see (m)any major rule changes between 4e and 5e.

If 6e has dispensed with one of the fundamentals of the game (ranges, movement etc.) couple that with no more figured stats...well, for the first time since I first played Hero System (erm, second, see Dark Champions/Fuzion), there's a game I don't want to play.

Quote from: 1989;532858So, what did they do to the inches? How are things measured now, such that a grid cannot be used?

Weird you say it's not longer a RPG? How so?

Ranges are just given in feet or meters, I forget which because I never used it.

And I didn't say it wasn't an RPG, I said it was no longer a table top RPG. Without a grid and minis- there's no real significant (i.e. required) use for a table.

There's also very little game left IMO but most people here don't really require much in that line in any case.