Quote from: gleichman;5349241. They can't play with grid and minis because it's a wargame to them, i.e. they're are not capable of playing by the rules and role-playing at the same time.

What if the rules are not about tactical combat with a grid in the first place? Wouldn't that be playing with the rules to not use a grid and miniatures from there? If yes, why couldn't people express a preference for rules which do not require grids and miniatures, if that is what they prefer to play with?

Quote from: gleichman;5349242. They don't want to be bound by the rules, i.e. they want to cheat.

So, let me get this straight: if you are not playing 100% by the letter of the rules, you are cheating? I'm sorry, but about 99% of the role playing game books and manuals I have here, as well as my personal gaming experience, completely disagree with that ludicrous idea. I have no choice but to point and laugh at this juncture of the conversation.

Quote from: Benoist;534956What if the rules are not about tactical combat with a grid in the first place? .

If the game doesn't include ranges and line of sight, then it doesn't include them. I've taken pains to note such as a different creature completely, one that bores me but also one that I'm not talking about.

Quote from: Benoist;534956So, let me get this straight: if you are not playing 100% by the letter of the rules, you are cheating? I'm sorry, but about 99% of the role playing game books and manuals I have here, as well as my personal gaming experience, completely disagree with that ludicrous idea.

The books and manuals don't want to lose sales, so they'll tell you it's ok. And of course you'll tell yourself that it's ok.

But the fact remains- you can't play the game by the rules. And that is failure pure and simple.

Quote from: gleichman;534960If the game doesn't include ranges and line of sight, then it doesn't include them. I've taken pains to note such as a different creature completely, one that bores me but also one that I'm not talking about.

Ranges and lines of sight don't make a game that would have to be played with miniatures. You can verbally tell the player "you're about 50 feet away from your target and he's running between boulders from time to time as he slaloms between them" and then the player tells you "OK, I'm within range then. I'll take a shot at a moment when he transitions from one cover to the next" and then the referee adjudicates.

That's a role playing game too, and it really doesn't matter whether you like playing like that or not: it's role playing and playing by the rules at the same time too, so your argument really is a steaming pile of bullshit, as far as I'm concerned.

Quote from: gleichman;534960The books and manuals don't want to lose sales, so they'll tell you it's ok. And of course you'll tell yourself that it's ok.

OK. So if a role playing game tells you to take the game into your own hands and that the gameplay and make-believe are more important than the rules in that context, they are actually lying to you. All games are really meant to be played 100% by the rules at all times. It's just marketing when they tell you it's not the case.

Man. I'd love to have authors and publishers of RPGs commenting on that one. I suppose they'll obviously all lie for PR on this thread when in fact they're all convinced their games are meant to be played BTB at all times. That's awesome ESP you got there.

Quote from: gleichman;534960But the fact remains- you can't play the game by the rules. And that is failure pure and simple.

Ah, no. I'm actually playing the game by the rules as per my example above. Check out http://praemal.blogspot.com to see how I use miniatures and grids when I want to. The one here who fails is you, mister, by pretending that only rules using miniatures and grids are worth playing, and that playing these rules sets without miniatures is somehow cheating against all evidence and the accumulated experience of gamers everwhere.

It's a laughable claim. Live with it.

Quote from: Bradford C. Walker;534811It is my experience that players would rather honestly fail than succeed only because the GM made it so, for whatever reason, hence why I play the game even when I run it, if you follow me.

Geez, ain't that true.

In a recent game, we had what should have been a very deadly fight stolen from us by a group house rule, which makes unskilled characters far, far more competent than skilled ones - so rather than having fuck all chance of hitting anything, we took both our opponents down with one shot in the first round of the fight. And I've pointed out, while they complain about the rules they use, the rule in the book works fine and exactly as we want... but I was asked to be quiet because the error made us more likely to win.

It's reached the point where I proposed the rule in the book as a house rule.

Pissed me off. Yeah, we might have died. But our characters knew that when they agreed to the job. There's no fun if there's no risk; what we had was an anticlimax that ruined the entire mission.

Huh. I see Gleichman is back. Yet again.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPundit;535069Huh. I see Gleichman is back. Yet again.

RPGPundit

Are you really surprised?


-TGA

That's why I love games like Barbarians of Lemuria.  They don't have miniature rules and even say don't use miniatures.

You have distances and from there you determine how far away the enemy is (IE the enemy is 75 feet away so they are at medium distance).

I have been gaming for 25 years and the games I have played, few if any have had miniature rules.  

That's how I like to game and that's how the many people I have gamed with game.

And for the record, I think the whole problem with Gurps and Hero is that, Like D&D the many editions have caused fracturing of the fan base.

I used to love Hero/Champions and played it in the 4e days.  I don't play anymore because with my limited gaming time, I don't have time for overcomplicated games anymore.   I prefer games that are easier to learn and less time is wasted on looking up rules.

Quote from: Benoist;534966Ranges and lines of sight don't make a game that would have to be played with miniatures. You can verbally tell the player "you're about 50 feet away from your target and he's running between boulders from time to time as he slaloms between them"

Yes, you can attempt to do that. And since you've limited your example to two characters you'd almost think you'd get alway with it. But the additions of boulders and the like ruin the one-dimensional encounter that you could have had.

In short, you're example fails. I can show you why, are you willing to proved wrong? Or do you want to whine some more instead.

>That's a role playing game too, and it really doesn't matter whether you like
>playing like that or not:

It's a rpg alright, but if that rpg included ranges and line of sight questions- you're break the rules playing it that way, i.e. you're being cheating.


> All games are really meant to be played 100% by the rules at all times. It's
> just marketing when they tell you it's not the case.

Not all, Long actually thought you didn't need a grid and minis for HERO and produced 6th edition without support for them. And sixth edition tanked.

Some authors drink the cool-aid. Others (most) are open to people expanding the written game but rightfully would hold that that when one changes the rules too much- you're no long playing that game.

In short, don't call you'r T-Ball version of Professional Baseball Professional Baseball, it's not. And you're gridless version of D&D isn't D&D.

Quote from: Benoist;534966Ah, no. I'm actually playing the game by the rules as per my example above. Check out http://praemal.blogspot.com to see how I use miniatures and grids when I want to.

Be more specific with your links, I'm not reading a entire blog (and a boring one to boot) looking for whatever you're trying to say here.

Quote from: gleichman;535289And you're gridless version of D&D isn't D&D.

:rotfl:

Thanks. I haven't laughed at something that funny in days!

Quote from: The Good Assyrian;535111Are you really surprised?


-TGA

Not even a tiny bit.

RPGPundit

Quote from: Benoist;534966Man. I'd love to have authors and publishers of RPGs commenting on that one. I suppose they'll obviously all lie for PR on this thread when in fact they're all convinced their games are meant to be played BTB at all times. That's awesome ESP you got there.

Microlite74 clearly states:

QuoteGuidelines Not Rules

Finally, remember that these rules are a tool for the GM. If something herein does not work right in your campaign, change it. The object is to have fun, not be a slave to rules or to players who think being a rules-lawyer is the way to get ahead. In many roleplaying games, the Rules As Written (RAW) are often considered sacrosanct or at least somehow better than those a GM can come up with himself. This is not true of Microlite74 so please change anything you do not like.

It also says stuff like:

QuoteReality/Common Sense Trumps Rules: Old-school games use loose and simple rules that cover average cases and the GM and players are supposed to apply common sense and their knowledge of how reality works to cover the unusual and edge cases. "Reality/Common Sense" as interpreted by the GM always trumps the written rules if they conflict. For example, a character has a magic weapon and the rules for that weapon say it always causes its target to fall prone if hit. The character hits a gelatinous cube moving down the corridor toward them with the weapon. The rules say that the target should fall and be in a prone position. Reality, however, says otherwise. Gelatinous cubes don't have a top and bottom (so prone penalties make no sense) and a 10 foot cube can't fall when it is moving through a 10 foot corridor. In some modern games, the rules would be applied anyway and the cube would suffer the effects of falling prone no matter how little sense that makes. In an old school game, the GM ignores the rule because it makes no sense in the specific situation.

Forget "Rules Mastery": As some of the above differences have hinted, player skill in "old school" style games isn't about mastering the game rules so you can solve any problem by knowing the right combination of rules from 20 different rule books. Microlite20 is designed to be rules light and Microlite74 tries to stress this even more by encouraging GMs to make rulings on the spot taking into account specific circumstances instead of trying to hunt up special cases in the SRD or a stack of optional rule books. This is faster and helps players immerse themselves in their character and the game world instead of in rule books. GM rulings will be based on specific circumstances and common sense, not just on the written rules and prior rulings. Just because it requires a certain roll to jump one 10 foot pit does not mean all 10 foot wide pits will require the same roll. After all, all sorts of variables can affect the roll (terrain, weather, lighting, pressure to jump quickly, etc.). Players need to remember that these rules are merely a tool for the GM. They are just guidelines for the GM, not something written in stone that the GM must obey. If something herein does not work right in your campaign (or the GM just does not like a rule), the GM is well within his right to change it. Microlite74 is not a game for rules lawyers or for those who believe that the game designer always knows what is best.

Considering Microlite74 has one author and no marketing department, I believe I actually do intend for GMs to make spot rulings, treat the rules as guidelines, and generally ignore or change anything they do not like. This, of course, means that the resulting game will be completely unacceptable to some -- but I do not care. I am not trying to make the one true game that will please everyone.

Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;532973I've watched such games.  It's painful.  People sitting around the room asking the DM where their character is in relation to the guy they want to attack.  And the DM saying, "He's behind you."  And another player asking, "What is my character doing?  Am I close enough to help them?"

These people obviously have known each other for years and this is more just a social night for them and not a serious RPG session.

I've decided that you're a tedious, boring fuck and that I hate you. Therefore you don't really have any reason to exist anymore.

I suggest one bullet...to the temple. Efficient and painless. Of course, if you have a flair for the dramatic you can douse yourself in kerosene and light yourself on fire. Either way is fine with me, just don't be alive anymore.

Hey! Asscunt! What the fuck are you typing and why? You don't owe the world a suicide note...only a suicide. Get on with it. Chop chop!

Quote from: RandallS;535342Microlite74 clearly states:



It also says stuff like:



Considering Microlite74 has one author and no marketing department, I believe I actually do intend for GMs to make spot rulings, treat the rules as guidelines, and generally ignore or change anything they do not like. This, of course, means that the resulting game will be completely unacceptable to some -- but I do not care. I am not trying to make the one true game that will please everyone.

Well you are a good designer then. That preface is gold though.

Quote from: gleichman;535289In short, don't call you'r T-Ball version of Professional Baseball Professional Baseball, it's not. And you're gridless version of D&D isn't D&D.

Here are a list of the recommended items for D&D from my copy of  Men & Magic (3rd Printing - 1975):

QuoteRECOMMENDED EQUIPMENT:

Dungeons and Dragons (you have it!)

Outdoor Survival (available from your hobby dealer or directly from Avalon Hill
Company, 4517 Harford Road, Baltimore MD 21214)

Dice — the following different kinds of dice are available from TSR
1 pair 4-sided dice 1 pair 20-sided dice
1 pair 8-sided dice 1 pair 12-sided dice
4 to 20 pairs 6-sided dice

Chainmail miniature rules, latest edition (available from your hobby dealer or
directly from TSR Hobbies, POB 756, Lake Geneva, Wi. 53147)

1 3-Ring Notebook (referee and each player)
Graph Paper (6 lines per inch is best)
Sheet Protectors (heaviest possible)
3-Ring Lined Paper
Drafting Equipment and Colored Pencils
Scratch Paper and Pencils
Imagination
1 Patient Referee
Players

Note that minis (or substitutes), grids, terrain for minis, a sand table, rulers, and the other items needed for minis or gridded combat are not included in this list of recommended items. I'm sure you will try to read minis into the system because of a set of minis rules are included, but without minis, etc. being listed as needed (or even recommended) those rules would be useless for for actual minis use.

OD&D did not require minis for play -- heck, they were not even on the RECOMMENDED EQUIPMENT list for D&D. There no mention of grids or grid substitutes either. Therefore the claim that "your gridless version of D&D is not D&D" is silly. Perhaps this is true of WOTC editions of  D&D -- especially  3.5 and 4e which seem to be almost unplayable without grids, but it is certainly not true of original D&D.