Quote from: gleichman;533351But I will give you one thing, at least you admit what you're doing- So I can't say you're not at honest about your cheating.

If the rules say they are nothing but guidelines for the GM, then one isn't cheating if one treats them as such. In fact, treating them as rules instead of the guidelines they say they are would probably be closer to "cheating." In case you haven't guessed the rules I use are 0e or my Microlite74 modern take on 0e. Both clearly state that they are guidelines for the GM, not rules to be followed or else.

BTW, "game" has several meanings. One of those meanings does require rules that govern play, but not all of them do. For example, here is the noun definition Google gives: "A form of play or sport, esp. a competitive one played according to rules and decided by skill, strength, or luck." Not that "played according to rules" isn't strictly required any more than "competitive" is required.  The Merriam-Webster site gives this as the first definition of "game": "activity engaged in for diversion or amusement". The play by rules version is the third definition and it does not seem to allow for cooperative instead of competitive games: "a physical or mental competition conducted according to rules with the participants in direct opposition to each other."

Quote from: gleichman;533363No. RPGs don't have have traditional winner and losers. Only good and bad players.


RPGs are a game. Games have rules. People who break or change the rules on the fly are cheating. It's that simple.

We wouldn't praise a football ref who moves the goal posts to allow or prevent a fieldgoal. In the same way, I don't praise GMs who make up ranges and line of sight judgements at their whim.

If the rules are there use them, or find a game that doesn't have them at all (easy to do these days).

Fizzbin: The Roleplaying Game

Quote from: misterguignol;533386All along Estar has been doin' it rong.

It's all gone Pete Tong.

JG

Quote from: RandallS;533429If the rules say they are nothing but guidelines for the GM, then one isn't cheating if one treats them as such.

I just lost what respect I did have for you, which wasn't all that much.

Rules in a rpg book are guildelines in that they may be replaced by consistent house rules- not random judgements of the moment and whim as you are insisting.

Of course too many house rules and it means that you cannot be said to be playing Game X at all. And at this point, I willing to say that the only game RandallS plays is "What RandallS wants" game. Boring game.

Quote from: gleichman;533393In fact, I doubt you even have those questions and certainly wouldn't be interested in the answers. I think you're just writing that to gain some sort of self-defined high ground.

I have posted and blogged exactly those sort of questions. One reason Majestic Wilderlands was a success because I wrote it as "Here how I did things in my setting, I hope you find some useful material." As opposing to saying this was THE way to play D&D and that it fixed all it's ills.

Quote from: estar;533335it is impossible to make a perfect simulation. I.e. the only thing that simulate the universe perfectly is the universe itself. At some level the referee has to wing it and make a judgement call.

I don't think Brian is claiming to make a perfect simulation, so this is a bit of a straw man for you to knock down.  I think his point is simply that to the extent that there are rules, all of the participants (including the GM) should follow them and not following them is cheating, because that's what it would be called in any other game context.  For the most part, I agree, and open rolls for the GM have also been the norm for the games I've been in, too.  Where the rules are silent, one can often extrapolate from existing rules, especially in many rules-heavy games like the Hero System.

One of the strengths of the Hero System, in my experience, is that there is very little that one can't resolve using either the rules that are there or through an obvious extrapolation of the rules or the meta-rules by which the rules are often tied together.  While I'm sure there are situations where it would, I never encountered situation in play where the Hero System did not provide a reasonable answer in the rules for how to resolve a situation to the satisfaction of all involved.

Quote from: Halloween Jack;533367Oh, how I wish that "Simulation" in RPG terminology hadn't been hijacked to mean "the rules are a physics engine for the setting."

And what's wrong with the rules being the physics engine for the setting?  That's pretty much what I want out of a set of RPG rules.

By the way Mr Right By Rules:

QuoteAge of Heroes A 80s-Style Fantasy RPG done right. Lulu Link

That'd be An 80s-Style Fantasy I believe, because Eighties begin with an "e".

I dunno if I can trust a man who makes such a blatant mistake to be a potential GM. I think that orthography feels cheated.

Quote from: estar;533389My problem with GURPS in the last decade has been I want one book that I can give to a person to get them going either as a player or referee. Preferably focusing on the fantasy genre.

Out of curiosity, why isn't GURPS Lite an adequate introduction for new players, since that seems to be its purpose?

Quote from: estar;533437I have posted and blogged exactly those sort of questions.

You haven't directed any such questions to me, and I certainly have never read your blog but I imagine it didn't direct such questions at me either.

Quote from: gleichman;533436I just lost what respect I did have for you, which wasn't all that much.

Rules in a rpg book are guildelines in that they may be replaced by consistent house rules- not random judgements of the moment and whim as you are insisting.

Of course too many house rules and it means that you cannot be said to be playing Game X at all. And at this point, I willing to say that the only game RandallS plays is "What RandallS wants" game. Boring game.

And here we go. A full blown out Swine of the "Thou shall not change the rules and play the game as creator intended".

:forge:

PS. It's "An 80s game", because 80s, when spelled, start with an "e".

Quote from: John Morrow;533441And what's wrong with the rules being the physics engine for the setting?  That's pretty much what I want out of a set of RPG rules.

In practically every RPG there will be a double or triple or quadruple standard, sooner or later. Or is gold magic in DnD, and makes you suddenly a better wizard by virtue of dragging it out of dungeon?
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It's threads like these that make me wish that we'd be still in the days of letters to the newspapers. Because as it is, I need to print the pages here, so I could wipe my arse on them.

Quote from: estar;533389I am frustrated because the Line Editors and some hard core GURPS gamers don't get how much an issue this is. It like reporting a software bug for years and the programmer does nothing about it. Sure they have reasons for not doing this project even some compelling ones. But since I first brought up the issue a lot more stepped forward with the same concern. Enough that I don't think that the problem is limited to my slice of the hobby.

No kidding.  I've done some work on a GURPS Fantasy Lite but the new store has kept me running too hard to get it done.

Still there will be GURPS Disc World and there is GURPS Vorsiekien.  Both of which are stand alone products.  The hard part is getting them to understand why neither of those settings is an acceptable tool for the task at hand.  Though both would be perfect if the setting was stripped out.

Quote from: gleichman;533403I highly doubt your highly doubting, for the simple reason that you completely missed the point of my reply to you.

Do you want to reread it and try again or do you need it to be further detailed?

Son,we live in a world that has gamers, gamers that need to play a character and kick in some dungeon doors, and those character have to be adjudicated by referees, referees with dice.

Who's gonna do it? You, Gleichman? I have a greater responsibility than you could possibly fathom. You weep for those who make up rules on the fly, and you curse the referees that do so. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know.

That on the fly rules, while random and at a whim, are fun for a lot of gamers. And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, is fun for gamers. You don't want the truth because deep down in places you don't talk about at gaming tables, you want me making up rules, you need me making up rules. We use random tables, rumors, and wandering monsters. We use these as the backbone of a life spent refereeing. You use them as a punchline.

I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a referee who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very fun that I provide, and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather you just said thank you, and went on your way, Otherwise, I suggest you pick up some dice, and make up some rules. Either way, I don't give a damn what you think you is wrong about playing RPGs.

Quote from: John Morrow;533447Out of curiosity, why isn't GURPS Lite an adequate introduction for new players, since that seems to be its purpose?

It a good intro to the system itself especially for players. But I don't think it is enough to gamers excited to run a full GURPS Campaign.

Quote from: John Morrow;533438I don't think Brian is claiming to make a perfect simulation, so this is a bit of a straw man for you to knock down.  I think his point is simply that to the extent that there are rules, all of the participants (including the GM) should follow them and not following them is cheating, because that's what it would be called in any other game context.  For the most part, I agree, and open rolls for the GM have also been the norm for the games I've been in, too.  Where the rules are silent, one can often extrapolate from existing rules, especially in many rules-heavy games like the Hero System.

One of the strengths of the Hero System, in my experience, is that there is very little that one can't resolve using either the rules that are there or through an obvious extrapolation of the rules or the meta-rules by which the rules are often tied together.  While I'm sure there are situations where it would, I never encountered situation in play where the Hero System did not provide a reasonable answer in the rules for how to resolve a situation to the satisfaction of all involved.

What you say reflects my experience with HERO System and GURPS as well. But I have run into situations many times where I have to simply fall back to the game most basic mechanics and make a call like "OK you need to make your Acrobatic by 2 to pull that off". Or when I felt the encounter didn't need a detailed resolution and just told the player to make a roll.