Quote from: gleichman;533383It's far more likely that your view of the rules are at fault than the rules themselves although there are a lot of really bad games out there.

All along Estar has been doin' it rong.

Quote from: One Horse Town;533385You say tomato, i say tomayto.

But but but you are a Brit, shouldn't you say tomahto?

Also - I say pomidor .

Quote from: Rincewind1;533381Damn bloody straight spot on, estar. But you are aware that you're  trying to argue in a case that requires a flamethrower and a priest, rather then common sense.

I can be aggressively moderate and slug it out with anybody on the forum.

What I would like to see from Gliechman and others (on both sides) a little less one wayisms and more stuff like.

When I want to do X, I do Y for Z reason.

So if you want to use a lot of minatures, what techniques have worked?
If you DON'T want to use a lot miniatures what techniques have worked?
Less detail in tactical rules, more detail in tactical rules, etc, etc.

The scope of RPGs is so vast, even for specific settings and genres, that there is no one true way. Just a bunch of techniques that work (or not) for that type of game and/or campaign.

To bring back to the OP, GURPS obviously works for a lot of gamers. It worked for me and still works for me. My problem with GURPS in the last decade has been I want one book that I can give to a person to get them going either as a player or referee. Preferably focusing on the fantasy genre.  This is an issue because of my attempts to grow the GURPS community here in Northwest PA. This book will solve the #1 complaint that people give me for adopting GURPS.

I am frustrated because the Line Editors and some hard core GURPS gamers don't get how much an issue this is. It like reporting a software bug for years and the programmer does nothing about it. Sure they have reasons for not doing this project even some compelling ones. But since I first brought up the issue a lot more stepped forward with the same concern. Enough that I don't think that the problem is limited to my slice of the hobby.

Given the acknowledged decline in total sales and GURP's relative position in the market, my conclusion is that the lack of a solid intro product is hurting GURPS far more than just the general downturn in RPGs.

Of course they could just put GURPS under an open license and let others assume the risk of time and money.

Quote from: gleichman;533376Then your original reponse to me makes little sense I'm afraid. I not taking about playing a simulator (such as Falcon 4.0)- I'm talking about simulation style table-top RPGs specifically and games in general.

Totally understand that. I pretty much agree with you because I was inferring a simulation like Falcon 4.0 with my original statement. I do not want that. I do want simulation in my rpg's though.

Quote from: estar;533377It all a simulation but people different about what they are want to simulate. What interest many is either particular situations, like dungeon crawling, hunting things that man not meant to know, or interacting with other NPCs, VtM focuses on this a lot.

And the rules are never good enough, leaving the human referee to use his judgment to best plug in the gap. Note the rules can be helpful but ultimately it comes down to the referee making judgment calls.

Again totally agree as I was trying to say with my first post on the subject. I just was not clear enough it seems.

Quote from: estar;533389I can be aggressively moderate and slug it out with anybody on the forum.

What I would like to see from Gliechman and others (on both sides) a little less one wayisms and more stuff like.

When I want to do X, I do Y for Z reason.

So if you want to use a lot of minatures, what techniques have worked?
...
.... more detail in tactical rules, etc, etc.

No one has asked me questions like those- including you. And you ran out of questions fast, that second one for example means what exactly?

In fact, I doubt you even have those questions and certainly wouldn't be interested in the answers. I think you're just writing that to gain some sort of self-defined high ground.

Quote from: Marleycat;533390Totally understand that. I pretty much agree with you because I was inferring a simulation like Falcon 4.0 with my original statement. I do not want that. I do want simulation in my rpg's though.

Then all is good, we understand each other now.

Quote from: gleichman;533383It's far more likely that your view of the rules are at fault than the rules themselves although there are a lot of really bad games out there.

I highly doubt that in my case considering the variety of systems I played for the past 30 years.


AD&D 1st
Hero System (2nd, 3rd, 4th, and 5th)
Harnmaster 1st, Companion, and 3rd.
Runequest 2nd
FASA Star Trek
D&D 3rd Edition
OD&D
Traveller (Classic, Mega, and Mongoose)
GURPS (2nd, 3rd, and 4th)
Hackmaster (5th)

Also I ran a LARP events and chapters for over 15 years. (NERO, boffer larp).

Also happen to published an Swords & Wizardry supplement that people seem to like a lot.

I am known to be a by the book referee. I run this way because I prize consistency and want the players confident in planning complex plans of action.

But I never let the rules stand in the way of the player's creativity. I tell novice players, don't worry about the rules, just tell me what you want to do and I will teach you the best way to use the system to accomplish what you are doing. Eventually the campaign runs long enough that it becomes second nature for everybody.

Quote from: gleichman;533383There are things not covered by the rules of course (Age of Heroes doesn't have a Lava table for example) but that's a bird of a different thread completely. For the rules that are there- there is no need for the judgment of a human referee. All you have to do is follow the rules.

Then you playing a boardgame not an RPG where the boundaries are set by the rules. The focus of the boardgame happens to be individual characters. The RPG in contrast focuses on the individual character interacting with a setting within a campaign. All the possible situations can't be encompassed in a playable set of rules. At best you cover the most likely situation and have a good foundation to be consistent with anything ruled on the fly.

Quote from: misterguignol;533386All along Estar has been doin' it rong.

Damn, I guess I will have to return that $2,000 I made off the Majestic Wilderlands.

I've always assumed the downturn in GURPS material, has far more to do with the success of Munchkin (awesome game, by the by), than a lack of interest by SJG. Munchkin is their cash cow, and they're feeding it.

Quote from: estar;533399I highly doubt that in my case considering the variety of systems I played for the past 30 years.

I highly doubt your highly doubting, for the simple reason that you completely missed the point of my reply to you.

Do you want to reread it and try again or do you need it to be further detailed?

Quote from: gleichman;533403I highly doubt your highly doubting, for the simple reason that you completely missed the point of my reply to you.

Do you want to reread it and try again or do you need it to be further detailed?

But what if he knows that you know that he knows that you know that he would respond that way?

Wait a minute...

Quote from: estar;533400Damn, I guess I will have to return that $2,000 I made off the Majestic Wilderlands.

You should donate that to GURPs fund and BE ASHAMED OF YOURSELF YOU CHEAT!!!1

Quote from: estar;533400Damn, I guess I will have to return that $2,000 I made off the Majestic Wilderlands.

Imagine how ripped off I feel for reading your work and thinking "Oh man, this stuff is cool!"  If only someone had told me it was all wrong!

Quote from: Rincewind1;533410You should donate that to GURPs fund and BE ASHAMED OF YOURSELF YOU CHEAT!!!1

Obviously he should use that money to buy a protractor to send to everyone who bought his books as a way of saying "sorry."