Both are good games, and the core rules are fairly simple (3d6 roll low). However, they both offer tons and tons of options. This is kind of like having a $10,000 mechanics tool chest with all the doodads, when all you really need is a ratchet set. While everything you can possibly want is in there somewhere, you have to basically know ALL of the rules in order to find the things you want, and to know how the various skills or powers you are not allowing will affect a game.

While you can maybe get away with a general knowledge of stuff to make your decisions, you still have to read everything. I think many people who make the argument that the "base rules are really simple" just completely miss that fact.

What also has really hurt both games, IMO, is that they are now split up into two separate books. Instead of having everything organized in just one rulebook, you now have to have both books open if your running combats (unless you're one of those people who has actually memorized everything). This is clumsy to handle at the table, and also makes looking up rules during play a major hassle. Especially if you think a rule is in book two, but is actually tucked away in a powers description in book one.

This is one of the areas that D&D has improved. By moving characters and combat into the same book (and lately even treasure), players and the DM can find everything much more quickly, if there's a question during play. Hero and Gurps are moving in the opposite direction, and I believe that's a big mistake.

In three words? Front-loaded complexity. Once you're done with chargen the game runs smooth, but God help you through your first (and sometimes second and third) character sheet.

A free-to-download, easy-to-use automated chargen app works wonders on both cases. It's not to everyone's liking, though.

A character generator would help, but it still would have problems, unless you could go in and tick boxes or something to allow or disallow skills and powers that don't fit the genre of game you're running.

Quote from: The Butcher;532411In three words? Front-loaded complexity. Once you're done with chargen the game runs smooth, but God help you through your first (and sometimes second and third) character sheet.

A free-to-download, easy-to-use automated chargen app works wonders on both cases. It's not to everyone's liking, though.

That's my issue the character creation can be a big endeavour.  The game itself is pretty simple if you're not using the advanced combat or magic rules.  I think it's fairly realistic for a rpg also.

The above is for GURPS never played or ran HERO haven't even read it.

Quote from: The Butcher;532411In three words? Front-loaded complexity. Once you're done with chargen the game runs smooth, but God help you through your first (and sometimes second and third) character sheet.

This is the number one reason why many local rpg gamers I'm acquainted with, have very little to no interest in systems like gurps, hero, rolemaster, mutant & masterminds, etc ...

Now that I think about it more, I suspect many of these same players would have very little to no interest in 3E/3.5E and 4E D&D, if it did not have "Dungeons and Dragons" on the front cover.

The fact that the core books had "Dungeons and Dragons" on the front cover, was the only reason they tolerated 3E/3.5E and 4E.

Quote from: ggroy;532421Now that I think about it more, I suspect many of these same players would have very little to no interest in 3E/3.5E and 4E D&D, if it did not have "Dungeons and Dragons" on the front cover.

The fact that the core books had "Dungeons and Dragons" on the front cover, was the only reason they tolerated 3E/3.5E and 4E.

Having "D&D" on the cover does spell the difference between being taken seriously, and being labeled "yet another fantasy heartbreaker".

Nonetheless, D&D3e is "end-loaded", in that generating a 1st-level character is a very simple affair, compared to GURPS or HERO, with greater complexity emerging at higher levels. Race, class, a couple of feats, 3-4 skills and gear, and you're good to go. Sure, steps 3 and 4 were absent from the even more agile previous editions, but it's still nothing monstruous. Things start getting really complicated as you level up, with feat trees and prestige classes and whatnot.

It may be more indicative of point based vs. class based systems though in being front or back loaded.

I agree, though all of them are really not that bad, it's just the options need to be sorted out.  I'll throw out yet another cry for a GURPS medium that removes the supernatural and cinematic advantages from the (single) core book.  Though I still want to see a series of GURPS lite supplements.  I've got part of one on my hard drive.  It's just since I opened the store I've been too busy to get much done.

Hero on the other hand has a Basic book that is really a great value and functional.  Inexpensive, easy to use, and clear.

Rolemaster is more complex but easier.  That may seem contradictory but it really helps to pick a profession and have that set higher prices for somethings.  Once you've decide to be a Fighter it's not so hard to decide not to spend 50 points a rank on spell lists.  With GURPS and HERO people wind up trying to do everything and it slows them down considerably.

Quote from: The Butcher;532411In three words? Front-loaded complexity. Once you're done with chargen the game runs smooth, but God help you through your first (and sometimes second and third) character sheet.

A free-to-download, easy-to-use automated chargen app works wonders on both cases. It's not to everyone's liking, though.

The Hero Designer program is good.
The designer of Hero Designer has a lot of bugs that need to be worked out.  

JG

QuoteBoth are good games

No, they're not.  GURPS is awful.  Haven't played HERO but from what I've heard, it is sub-par.  If the designers want to make GURPS work, they need to drastically simplify the system and then create genre-specific splats with self-contained rules that can optionally be grafted onto other games.  GURPS Fantasy Heartbreaker should be a completely separate game from GURPS Space Opera in the way that Werewolf is a completely separate game from Vampire.

Fuck GURPS.

Quote from: The Butcher;532411In three words? Front-loaded complexity. Once you're done with chargen the game runs smooth, but God help you through your first (and sometimes second and third) character sheet.

A free-to-download, easy-to-use automated chargen app works wonders on both cases. It's not to everyone's liking, though.

This. This utterly, utterly turns me off games.

I work in accounts and I study maths. A character gen spreadsheet, to me, looks almost exactly like the day job. It's not that I can't do the maths, I just don't want to, unless I know the payoff will be really, really worth it.

Quote from: B.T.;532482No, they're not.  GURPS is awful.  Haven't played HERO but from what I've heard, it is sub-par.  If the designers want to make GURPS work, they need to drastically simplify the system and then create genre-specific splats with self-contained rules that can optionally be grafted onto other games.  GURPS Fantasy Heartbreaker should be a completely separate game from GURPS Space Opera in the way that Werewolf is a completely separate game from Vampire.

Fuck GURPS.

Workable solution but if they did that it wouldn't be GURPS.

The reason that I think they have a popularity problem -- and the reason I quit Hero -- is because making a well designed character is above the time and knowledge investment that many players are willing and able to put into it.

I loved Hero's ability to craft whatever ability I wanted to see in the game, but I could tell some of my players struggled and really didn't "get" the power system.

I didn't feel like shelling out $75 for Gurps 4e when I already had a shelf full of 3e stuff. Especially for two full color, glossy hardcovers.