So, several months back, I picked up the Wilderlands boxed set from Amazon.  I was immediately very impressed with it, pitched it to my players, and started up a game.  The game is going very well (though it is slipping a bit from the swords & sorcery premise I originally set up), and I'm 100% happy with my purchase.

I kind of posted about this on CM several months ago, and I'm cutting & pasting a bit.  Sorry if I get the flow wrong.

First things first, I love Wilderlands because it allows me to run a completely player-driven game with minimal prep-time - if, that is, you're not afraid of improvisation. The world is exhaustively detailed, and most of my gripes are with the organization of it rather than the content.

My players are loving this kind of game, though it took them a while to get into the mindset.  I tend to run event-driven games, where stuff happens and the players can either do something with/about it, do other stuff related to previous plotlines, or set off on their own.

Wilderlands is more of a site-based game.  Although there's stuff happening out there somewhere, it's not generally all that interesting or important to most PCs.  Instead, the setting is what's important.  There's all this stuff - and what the players decide to do is completely up to them.  I still drop in hooks (like having them find Chaositech items and a treasure map or two) - but they're not time-critical.  Instead, they're more like, "Hey, there's probably interesting stuff over there if you decide to go there."  It's akin to the random rumor tables in old D&D adventures.

The setting is huge.  I seriously can't comprehend how anyone could use the whole thing in even 5 years of gaming.  It's well worth the money.

Now, for the gripes...

First off, the Wilderlands set itself doesn't give all that much of a bird's eye view of the campaign setting. It has a history section, but other than that, it more or less starts with "Here's stuff about travel, here's stuff about random ruins, here's a lot of stuff about how random encounters work here."  Then, it hops right into the maps, which have neat geographical overviews of small areas and then the detailed hexes.  I know that gives me more freedom - but at times the setting just feels jumbled and random to me.

Second, (and most critically to me) with the set's hex-based emphasis, you can't just look up (for example) Viridistan or Sea Rune. You need to find them on the appropriate map, look up the number, and then read the description. It's also slow to find what's located around the PCs' current hex, since you need to look up each one individually.  Since the hexes are listed vertically, sometimes it's a page or two before you'd find something that's literally 5 miles away.

As an example, it notes that the World Emperor of Viridistan is afraid of some giant snake somewhere. If you want to find info and stats for that snake, you need to look at all the hexes along the forest boundary. As another example, the overview for the Elsenwood tells you that it's ruled by some elven nobles in a hidden town... but in order to find the town and these guys' stats, again, you need to look through the hex descriptions until you locate it.  The Elsenwood hexes aren't all in one place, either - and the town's not marked on the map.

This becomes important when, say, the PCs run into a wanderer or drop by a town.  It would make sense that the traveler would know what he went through, or the townspeople would know (or hear rumors of) stuff that's a few miles away, but I can't (as a DM) find out what's there without a good bit of research.  I mean, if a red dragon's lair is pretty nearby, that's something the villagers should know.  Sometimes this is done well, sometimes it's not.

Nevertheless, I'd strongly recommend it to any DM who's looking for a different kind of setting for their games.  It has a great oldschool feel to it, and (with the exception of what I noted above) it's a setting which a DM can run freely and with minimal preparation so long as they don't mind filling in some blanks.

-O

coolness!

it's all in one volume, right?  i liked the same thing in all the scarred lands products--more "sites to explore" type of thing.  just needed all the "site" books for details, tho.

Quote from: obrynSecond, (and most critically to me) with the set's hex-based emphasis, you can't just look up (for example) Viridistan or Sea Rune. You need to find them on the appropriate map, look up the number, and then read the description.

Yeah, that is sort of a pisser.

I toyed with the idea of picking up the product in PDF just so I'd have the text search ability.

If I was to actually run a campaign in the Wilderlands, I would undoubtedly do so.

I love the wilderlands boxed set. That's all.

Well, nearly. It's no bother to spend five minutes finding relevant nearby hexes when PCs are either travelling or staying in a certain community. Hell, with all the hooks provided with each community, you can spend weeks, if not months, hardly moving on the maps at all. Five or ten minutes doesn't really matter then does it?

Quote from: obrynFirst off, the Wilderlands set itself doesn't give all that much of a bird's eye view of the campaign setting.

The Player's Guide does that.  I think it's worth getting (if only as a pdf) just for the overview it provides.

Quote from: AkrasiaThe Player's Guide does that.  I think it's worth getting (if only as a pdf) just for the overview it provides.

That and the one big map of the entire "world" that (if I'm not mistaken) isn't in the boxed set.

Quote from: AkrasiaThe Player's Guide does that.  I think it's worth getting (if only as a pdf) just for the overview it provides.

Also, depending upon your group's preferred play style, the Player's Guide can actually be a better purchase than the box set.

I have the Players' Guide, and while it intends to provide that kind of overview, I find it doesn't do that great a job.  It's nice to have the info organized in a different way, but really it's mostly reprints from the box set...

-O

Quote from: obrynI have the Players' Guide, and while it intends to provide that kind of overview, I find it doesn't do that great a job.  It's nice to have the info organized in a different way, but really it's mostly reprints from the box set...

-O

I think that it's the other way 'round, actually -- I believe that the PG came before the box set.

[Edit: Yep. It was out two years before the Wilderlands box set was released.]

Simple question, big problem:

"Where are big and widely known temples of Mitra?"

I hereby acknowledge that I use a pirated version of the pdf. Without it, the product is next to useless.

Quote from: SettembriniSimple question, big problem:

"Where are big and widely known temples of Mitra?"

Speaking generally and not about Wilderlands in particular, that's the sort of question that, if at all possible, I would defer to my between-sessions e-mail to the player group.  That's not always feasible and not ideal, but that's how I would handle such an issue.

Quote from: jdrakehI think that it's the other way 'round, actually -- I believe that the PG came before the box set.

[Edit: Yep. It was out two years before the Wilderlands box set was released.]

Good point

Still, the point stands that they're basically identical, only that the PG is kind of expurgated and the Wilderlands box set has all the dirt.

-O

Quote from: obrynThe setting is huge.  I seriously can't comprehend how anyone could use the whole thing in even 5 years of gaming.  It's well worth the money.

I haven't and I been using it for 20+ years

Quote from: obrynFirst off, the Wilderlands set itself doesn't give all that much of a bird's eye view of the campaign setting.

Honestly make your own. It has a more of a kinship with Traveller's Spinward Marches than Greyhawk/Forgotten Realm. Wilderlands has some very high level idea (City-State, Viridstan, etc) and a ton of very low level detail (the hex descriptions) but not much in the middle.

With that being said I direct you do this showing what I was thinking when I was writing up the village and citadel for Map 8 (Altanis).

http://home.earthlink.net/~wilderlands/map_8_overview.jpg

Quote from: obrynbut at times the setting just feels jumbled and random to me.

Multiple Authors fleshing out single line entries from lists that were randomly generated in 1977. For example my work was focused on Map 5, Map 8, and northern half of Map 11. And even that was just for the citadel and villages. My personal version is much more cohesive than what was published.

Basically when this project started we had a difficult time getting going because we ALL realized that nobody had the same Wilderlands. Much of Bob Bledsaw was giving Necromancers we never saw before because it was never printed.

Pretend that Third Imperium of Traveller didn't get fleshed over the years. That Traveller stopped before Supplement 8 (Library Data A-M) and just sat there with a core group of fans using building their own campaigns. Then suddenly 20 years later they all got together to publish a definitive spinward marches. And Marc Miller dumps the equivalent of the two library data supplements on the project. Needless say to chaos would ensue.

Basically Clark pulled together Bob Bledsaw's notes, the best of what was run for the Wilderlands. My Majestic Wilderlands, Mishler's Wilderlands of High Adventure, and others and produced the Player's Guide.

My major initial contribution was to show how something like the Wilderlands boxed set could be done. I made the Rorystone Road Preview that is on the Necromancers and showed it everyone. Clark liked the format and decided that the boxed set was feasible after all. Because of my writing I was assigned to do the central maps (5, 8, north 12)

The rest of us had the basics of the Player's Guild when we started writing our sections of the Wilderlands. I can't speak for the other authors but for myself I looked at the original data and wrote all new material. Some of my own Majestic Wilderlands is in there as long as some easter eggs based on my decade long work with the Nero LARP. But it is all new stuff.

My specific technique is what I call a spreading inkblot. I pick X to be some interesting location and plot. Then when I write a nearby community I integrate X into that description as well. The further the community was from X the less chance X would play a part in it. When I was done I felt I had a mosaic of plots that a group could experience as they travel through the map. These plots were kept very local except for a handful that were part of the player's guild and history (City-State, Viridstan, etc).

The big problem of the project was that it was so huge that I think that work of multiple authors wasn't really integrated. So you will that the southern edge of Map 5 have adventures in common with Map 8 because I wrote them.  But you will see that Map 4 and Map 7 don't reference anything on Map 5 and Map 8. Map 4 and Map 7 were written by other authors.

Quote from: obrynSecond, (and most critically to me) with the set's hex-based emphasis, you can't just look up (for example) Viridistan or Sea Rune. You need to find them on the appropriate map, look up the number, and then read the description. It's also slow to find what's located around the PCs' current hex, since you need to look up each one individually.  Since the hexes are listed vertically, sometimes it's a page or two before you'd find something that's literally 5 miles away.

The limitations of the printed page. This type of project is born for  a wiki, or a html help or even just a search able PDF. Of course a Index could be made but it would be a monster. The only solution is to convince Necromancer and Bob Bledsaw to make a wiki out of the Boxed Set.

Quote from: obrynAs an example, it notes that the World Emperor of Viridistan is afraid of some giant snake somewhere. If you want to find info and stats for that snake, you need to look at all the hexes along the forest boundary. As another example, the overview for the Elsenwood tells you that it's ruled by some elven nobles in a hidden town... but in order to find the town and these guys' stats, again, you need to look through the hex descriptions until you locate it.  The Elsenwood hexes aren't all in one place, either - and the town's not marked on the map.

First you are absolutely right summaries would be useful nearly vital in fact. Real-world limitation prevented that. This project had a ton of real world limitations because of it huge size. It cost a lot to print and a ton of time to edit. I don't like resort to "You should be glad it was printed in the form it was." but that is really the case.

If there is the interest I really recommend going to Necromancer and Bob Bledsaw and see if a Wiki could be made. Contact James Mishler as well for help. Note that Marc Miller has given permission for a Official Traveller Wiki to be made so the agreement used there could be used as a model to protect everyone's copyrights.
villagers should know.  Sometimes this is done well, sometimes it's not.

Quote from: obrynNevertheless, I'd strongly recommend it to any DM who's looking for a different kind of setting for their games.  It has a great oldschool feel to it, and (with the exception of what I noted above) it's a setting which a DM can run freely and with minimal preparation so long as they don't mind filling in some blanks.

In my mind the ultimate goal of the original product was to save the GM prep time in creating a campaign world. As a consequence of its format it allowed for a very free exploration style of play. If the boxed set does the same for you and other newer players then we done our job.


Enjoy
Rob Conley

Quote from: obrynGood point

Still, the point stands that they're basically identical, only that the PG is kind of expurgated and the Wilderlands box set has all the dirt.

-O

This is incorrect.  They're not identical.

The PG has information on gods, races, cultures, etc. that cannot be found in the box set.  Moreover, the PG has 'recent history' which (strangely) wasn't included in the box set (the history in the box set stops at a certain point, and instructs the reader to go to the history in the PG).

To be honest, i have absolutely no problem with running nearly everything in the wilderlands without the players guide. There's more than enough brain juice flowing through the whole thing that i don't need someone else to tell me how it fits together. I put my own spin on it. In fact, i've run 2 games in exactly the same area that bore no rememblance to each other at all.

The real beauty is that the game world is so vast, that if you like the look of a community or ruin that is half a continent away, simply re-place in the map you are playing in. Same with NPCs and plots etc.

I guess i'm a bit of a map nerd, which contributes to my love of the set (i've spent hours looking stuff up!), but i'm not really seeing either a problem with running stuff from the boxed set with nothing else, or the problem of where to place things (like Setts temples mentioned upthread). Mix and match baby!