For some reason, I'm surprised that the OSR movement hasn't tried to revive the older term "FRP" in place of RPG. To me, RPG is a term that has been (successfully) appropriated by the video game industry to cover a wealth of things not always related to pen and paper games.
Is it just the genre thing that the F implies? My oldest version of CoC is subtitled "Fantasy Roleplaying in the Worlds of H.P. Lovecraft" and I saw even Traveller referred to as an FRP back then, though not by the publisher.
To my thought any sort imagined setting is 'fantasy' so I think it still fits just fine.
Because the OSR has always been about D&D and nothing else.
Quote from: Christopher Brady;854341Because the OSR has always been about D&D and nothing else.
Even if that were true I'm not seeing how it matters since D&D is generally focused on 'fantasy'... so FRP still fits just fine.
I'd guess it's because the "OSR" isn't an entity with marketing strategy and planning and direction. It's a very loosely connected group of sorta like-minded individuals and small companies that are sometimes going in kinda the same direction, except when they're not. And nobody has thought of it (or if they did, they decided not to run with it).
If you like the terminology, start using it. Maybe it will catch on.
(FWIW, I don't have a strong preference one way or the other, but I do think the "FRP" terminology is nifty.)
Quote from: Christopher Brady;854341Because the OSR has always been about D&D and nothing else.
Incorrect.
It also includes multiple old school games: RuneQuest, Basic Role-Playing, Traveller, Boot Hill, Rifts, Gamma World, Metamorphosis Alpha, Rolemaster, Call of Cthulhu, Marvel Super Heroes, Star Frontiers, Palladium Fantasy Role-Playing Game, Tunnels & Trolls, etc.
The OSR also includes the various retro-clones being published.
But it's never been limited to only D&D.
Wait, so would Zweihander be considered OSR? Because when I hear FRP, the first thing that comes to my mind is Warhammer. FRP almost doesn't sound right to me without a W in front of it.
The OSR hasn't reclaimed FRP because the OSR does not exist as a monolithic entity. The OSR is whoever wants to be OSR. Want publish an OSR game? Publish a game and call it OSR. Others may or may not agree that it is an OSR game, but there is no governing authority to make it stick.
Lamentations of the Flame Princess, one of the flagship OSR games, uses "Weird Fantasy Role Playing" as it's subtitle.
I was always fond of the extremely vague yet completely accurate "Fantasy Adventure Game".
Quote from: Simlasa;854342Even if that were true I'm not seeing how it matters since D&D is generally focused on 'fantasy'... so FRP still fits just fine.
Sp what non-D&D game is called 'OSR'? Just because a game is OLD enough to fit under that title does not make OSR. Simply because Runequest et al. SHOULD be considered OSR, they're not. For some reason.
But then, I personally disagree with what OSR is. It doesn't exist, past some nostalgic concept by people who either have a certain playstyle they miss from their high school or younger days, or by people who took the bait, hook, like and sinker, and try to emulate this 'groupthink' style of gaming.
Doesn't mean it hasn't produced some good games, it's just not that common a play style, because even to this day, we all play games a unique way to us.
Quote from: Christopher Brady;854381Sp what non-D&D game is called 'OSR'?
Any game I play in an OSR style?
In many ways I have trouble getting OSR. I still play OD&D from the three little brown books. I still play 1e Metamorphosis Alpha. I still play Traveller (classic).
Does that make me an OSR gamer? Does it make me "old school"? I don't play them the way I played them 35+ years ago. My GMing style and my playing style have evolved over time.
Many OSR and retro-clone games don't really appeal to me because I still have the originals to play if I want to.
I don't think of Stars Without Number as a particularly "old school" game, despite its D&D based mechanics.
Beyond the Wall and Other Adventures is clearly based on D&D, but it is not at all old school, nor a retro-clone. It takes a new approach to the old mechanics and is a style of play that would have been quite foreign to us back in the day.
As for FRP, RPG is what stuck and I don't think we'll see a strong movement to replace it or rename the hobby after all this time.
Quote from: Simlasa;854385Any game I play in an OSR style?
Ah, so you co-opted the term to refer your personal play style. As opposed to what people wanting to sell you copies of OSRIC or Labyrinth Lords or other D&D based product that supposedly mimics a certain play style back in the mid-late 70's.
Unfortunately, the latter use is what we're talking here: Why hasn't games like Runequest or Traveler or whatnot been called OSR, the answer is that no one's remade an older version of them, rather focused on D&D products and called them OSR. Which is also why FRP hasn't been co-opted.
Quote from: Christopher Brady;854388Ah, so you co-opted the term to refer your personal play style.
Nonsense, I'm pretty much thinking of Matt Finch's Primer... that was the thing I read and saw how it aligned with my tastes... not necessarily how I'd every actually played but how I'd like to play... a set of descriptors to aspire to. Not much of it is limited to D&D.
I really don't give a crap if it's historical or not... for me it's a revolt against certain trends in RPGs and an embrace of a DIY attitude.
Quote from: Simlasa;854395Nope, I'm pretty much thinking of Matt Finch's Primer... that was the thing I read and saw how it aligned with my tastes... not necessarily how I every actually played but how I'd like to play... a set of descriptors to aspire to. Not much of it is limited to D&D.
Again, it's you co-opting someone else's interpretation. Nothing to do with the actual topic at hand. You might believe that Runequest and them are Old School, (and I would agree with you) but it's not what's been marketed.
First you say you don't believe such a thing exists, now you're trying to force your definition on said non-existant thing.
As Philotomy said, there's no 'official' judge of what is/isn't OSR... and to me anyone claiming they are automatically wouldn't be.
If anything I`d drop the "roleplaying" term entirely. It isn`t pretending to be somebody else that makes these games great it`s their open ended nature.
When I run D&D for my students they never ever get in character but they love it because they can choose to do anything and there`s plenty for non-RPG games (hi Crusader Kings!) in which a lot of the fun comes from being in character.
Quote from: Simlasa;854398First you say you don't believe such a thing exists, now you're trying to force your definition on said non-existant thing.
As Philotomy said, there's no 'official' judge of what is/isn't OSR... and to me anyone claiming they are automatically wouldn't be.
You're not getting what I mean. I say it's a meaningless term because it's just a play style. One that was ASSUMED to be common back in ye olden days. It was not. Secondly, whether or not you believe your personal play style IS OSR or not, doesn't matter in this conversation. It's about the term Fantasy Role Play and why it's not included in this silly market based 'movement' to emulate a play style that never truly existed as this monolithic group-mind way of running various game, and how this market has attached it to older editions of D&D.
Most people playing the old versions of Runequest, still have the books, they're not remaking them with fancy names and claiming that their ways is the only way to truly play it in an 'Old School' fashion. Which again, I contend never existed past certain people's memories, or the way it's been assumed by people too young to know.
Wow, I remember FRP being a thing! Totally forgot about it, and like Brand55 my first reaction is where is the W?
I agree Fantasy Roleplaying Game is a good term.
I also like Fantasy Adventure Game.
Probably shouldn't use the acronym for that one though...
OSR Taliban will TAKE FRP and hold against all infidels & new school invaders! We shall entrench deep in our hex maps keep enemies at bay with our 10 foot poles! :rotfl:
Quote from: DavetheLost;854387I still play 1e Metamorphosis Alpha.
Please start a thread about MA!!
I'm a Gamma World player and I'd love to hear about MA gaming!
I like the term "Roleplaying Adventure Game", or RAG for short. :D
The OSR is usually/often only concerned with a D&D based approach, so I can see why a larger FRP category might not have any utility for the average OSR participant.
Quote from: Daztur;854402If anything I`d drop the "roleplaying" term entirely. It isn`t pretending to be somebody else that makes these games great it`s their open ended nature.
When I run D&D for my students they never ever get in character but they love it because they can choose to do anything and there`s plenty for non-RPG games (hi Crusader Kings!) in which a lot of the fun comes from being in character.
I always like the term "adventure game" and the computer world really hasn't been using it for a while so maybe they wouldn't mind us stealing it :D
Quote from: Piestrio;854514I always like the term "adventure game" and the computer world really hasn't been using it for a while so maybe they wouldn't mind us stealing it :D
Yeah, like that a lot too. I think "go and do stuff" captures the genre better than "pretend to be somebody else." Not that getting into character isn't a good thing, it's just not core or essential.
Quote from: Sacrificial Lamb;854349But it's never been limited to only D&D.
There the OSR and the osr. The OSR is a term used by some people playing, publishing, and promoting classic editions of D&D and similar games.
Alongside the OSR there is been a increase of people playing, publishing, and promoting older games in general, a old school renaissance.
The OSR also includes other games because the people involved are not just interested in classic D&D. So you get RPGs and supplements involving apocalypse roleplaying, horror, science fiction, swords and planets, and so on. However outside of classic D&D there no rhyme or reason united them other than it was something that interested the people involved.
As Philotomy said there is no authority behind the use of OSR. Just a bunch of people, including myself, who use it as a shorthand for what they do. However classic D&D continues to be the largest part of the OSR and even the osr because of its legacy of being the most popular roleplaying game of all time.
And what many forget in these discussion over the use of the OSR is that it rest on a foundation of open gaming. The implication of which is that anything that can be done will classic D&D will be done by somebody at some time. There are no gatekeepers and the main factor for the release of anything is only limited to how hard the author is willing to work at it.
Speaking for the Opposition, there are times I've been tempted to abandon RPG to the OSR and revive the term "Dramatic Adventure Game" from Dragonlance: Fifth Age. :)
Quote from: Daztur;854517Yeah, like that a lot too. I think "go and do stuff" captures the genre better than "pretend to be somebody else." Not that getting into character isn't a good thing, it's just not core or essential.
This. I could care less about the pretending to be somebody else part. Some level of that happens, due to dynamic play, but I'm not interested in games where "pretending to be someone else" is the core activity and the rest of the game is secondary.
I've always preferred "adventure gaming".
Adventure Gaming works well for me. Some times I want to pretend to be somebody else, get all deep into role play and all that. Some times I just want to kill shit and take its treasure.
Since not all of us are great improv actors I hear a lot of "I tell the guard what we are doing here," around the gaming table. It works just fine and we all have fun.
Quote from: Paraguybrarian;854289For some reason, I'm surprised that the OSR movement hasn't tried to revive the older term "FRP" in place of RPG. To me, RPG is a term that has been (successfully) appropriated by the video game industry to cover a wealth of things not always related to pen and paper games.
Is it just the genre thing that the F implies?
No, it's that nobody gives a shit.
Quote from: DavetheLost;854630Adventure Gaming works well for me. Some times I want to pretend to be somebody else, get all deep into role play and all that. Some times I just want to kill shit and take its treasure.
Since not all of us are great improv actors I hear a lot of "I tell the guard what we are doing here," around the gaming table. It works just fine and we all have fun.
Yeah with my students you get stuff like:
Student: OK, I throw a rock at the floor before entering the room.
Me: it goes right thought without making a sound then one second later you hear the sound of rock hitting metal.
Student: I'm not going in there.
or...
Me: so as the monster approaches you cast grease on the floor where you've laid all the caltrops. Aaaaaand... the monster falls down right on the spikes.
Student: I throw my torch at the greased floor.
Me: it lights on fire. The monster doesn't seem very happy about this. He's struggling to get up.
Student: awesome, I get ready to hit it! No, wait! I'll get burned. I get my ten foot pole and knock it down.
Me: *rolls* OK, you knock the monster back down on the flaming caltrops. It starts whining pitifully.
Pure D&D, not a single ounce of roleplaying. Roleplaying is nice icing on the cake but the freaking cake is interacting with the environment to get what you want, not roleplaying.
Quote from: Armchair Gamer;854560Speaking for the Opposition, there are times I've been tempted to abandon RPG to the OSR and revive the term "Dramatic Adventure Game" from Dragonlance: Fifth Age. :)
How about expanding it to Dramatic Roleplaying Adventure Game Of Note, Leveraging a Nicely Chosen Environment For Intense Fun That Heralds A Grand Experience?
Quote from: Daztur;854675Yeah with my students you get stuff like:
Student: OK, I throw a rock at the floor before entering the room.
Me: it goes right thought without making a sound then one second later you hear the sound of rock hitting metal.
Student: I'm not going in there.
or...
Me: so as the monster approaches you cast grease on the floor where you've laid all the caltrops. Aaaaaand... the monster falls down right on the spikes.
Student: I throw my torch at the greased floor.
Me: it lights on fire. The monster doesn't seem very happy about this. He's struggling to get up.
Student: awesome, I get ready to hit it! No, wait! I'll get burned. I get my ten foot pole and knock it down.
Me: *rolls* OK, you knock the monster back down on the flaming caltrops. It starts whining pitifully.
Pure D&D, not a single ounce of roleplaying. Roleplaying is nice icing on the cake but the freaking cake is interacting with the environment to get what you want, not roleplaying.
What choo talkin about Willis? That right there is all role playing.
If you are taking actions and interacting with the environment in an imagined scenario then you are in fact role playing.
Speaking in a fake accent, attempting to justify your actions as "in character", or hell, even playing a character who isn't you are all just theatrics. What you described is pure role playing- making decisions based on the POV of being in the imagined situation.
Too much focus on the window dressing and theatrics has caused quite a few people to forget what actual role playing is all about.
Quote from: Warthur;854737How about expanding it to Dramatic Roleplaying Adventure Game Of Note, Leveraging a Nicely Chosen Environment For Intense Fun That Heralds A Grand Experience?
I see what you did there. :) But that sounds more suited to
Castle Falkenstein.
Hmmm... Card-based Adventure Story-Telling Leisure Entertainment ...
Quote from: Armchair Gamer;854752I see what you did there. :) But that sounds more suited to Castle Falkenstein.
Hmmm... Card-based Adventure Story-Telling Leisure Entertainment ...
Faithfully Adapting Lifelike Keep Environments, Notionally Supporting Tales of Extravagant Intrigue Narratively?
Quote from: Exploderwizard;854743What choo talkin about Willis? That right there is all role playing.
If you are taking actions and interacting with the environment in an imagined scenario then you are in fact role playing.
Speaking in a fake accent, attempting to justify your actions as "in character", or hell, even playing a character who isn't you are all just theatrics. What you described is pure role playing- making decisions based on the POV of being in the imagined situation.
Too much focus on the window dressing and theatrics has caused quite a few people to forget what actual role playing is all about.
Yep. There is more to role playing than just improvisational method acting. There is also the game aspect of RPG.
Quote from: Exploderwizard;854743If you are taking actions and interacting with the environment in an imagined scenario then you are in fact role playing.
Speaking in a fake accent, attempting to justify your actions as "in character", or hell, even playing a character who isn't you are all just theatrics.
Too much focus on the window dressing and theatrics has caused quite a few people to forget what actual role playing is all about.
HO!!!!!! This is spot on here.
Quote from: Exploderwizard;854743If you are taking actions and interacting with the environment in an imagined scenario then you are in fact role playing.
Speaking in a fake accent, attempting to justify your actions as "in character", or hell, even playing a character who isn't you are all just theatrics. What you described is pure role playing- making decisions based on the POV of being in the imagined situation.
Too much focus on the window dressing and theatrics has caused quite a few people to forget what actual role playing is all about.
Yes. Cool. For ages I've been reading various forums and blogs and thinking what the fuck are these people even talking about? Doesn't anybody play the way I do anymore? Thank fuck.
Quote from: Paraguybrarian;854289For some reason, I'm surprised that the OSR movement hasn't tried to revive the older term "FRP" in place of RPG. To me, RPG is a term that has been (successfully) appropriated by the video game industry to cover a wealth of things not always related to pen and paper games.
Is it just the genre thing that the F implies? My oldest version of CoC is subtitled "Fantasy Roleplaying in the Worlds of H.P. Lovecraft" and I saw even Traveller referred to as an FRP back then, though not by the publisher.
On a psychological level, perhaps because not enough people have any particular positive association with the term? I recognize the term as the first term people started using to describe what we now know as Table Top RPGs after TSR started rabidly protecting their brand, but it has no particular emotional ressonance for me. "Role Playing Game" has a personal meaning to me, even if it is confusing for those who might more associate that with the computer games that were inspired by TTRPGs. "Old School" has such a positive emotional resonance that various groups are battling for the use of the term and arguing over who is genuinely old school. FRP is accurate (especially with the broader interpretation of the term 'fantasy'), but what advantage does it give a designer to include it on their product?
Quote from: Weru;854774Yes. Cool. For ages I've been reading various forums and blogs and thinking what the fuck are these people even talking about? Doesn't anybody play the way I do anymore? Thank fuck.
Damn straight.
Quote from: Brand55;854360Wait, so would Zweihander be considered OSR? Because when I hear FRP, the first thing that comes to my mind is Warhammer. FRP almost doesn't sound right to me without a W in front of it.
It sure is! However, ZWEIHANDER (http://warhammerfantasyroleplay.com)- at this point - resembles Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay (http://grimandperilous.com) only in passing. It is to Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay (http://grimandperilous.com) that Fantastic Heroes and Witchery is to OD&D: unique enough to stand on its own two legs. Meaning, it's not really a retroclone.
Just my two cents!
Quote from: Exploderwizard;854743If you are taking actions and interacting with the environment in an imagined scenario then you are in fact role playing.
Indeed, that's what was what was meant when the term was applied to D&D, though some would have you believe otherwise.
I sometimes use 'FRP' in my posts, because I picked up the term back in the '70s. I don't see from what it needs 'reclaiming', though, or what value (apart from liking 'retro' fashions) would be served by a concerted attempt to make it more widespread today.
The only shift in usage that occurs to me is one that seemed happened pretty early, the 'F' coming to refer specifically to fantasy as a genre as distinct from semi-historical or even science-fictional imaginings. Maybe it's tended since to get even more specific to a set of sub-genres typified by "sword & sorcery."
That people prefer to spell out 'fantasy' rather than abbreviate it presents a retro-style pleasure of its own, in an age seemingly awash in abbreviations and jargon cryptic to the uninitiated.
Quote from: Sacrificial Lamb;854349Incorrect.
It also includes multiple old school games: RuneQuest, Basic Role-Playing, Traveller, Boot Hill, Rifts, Gamma World, Metamorphosis Alpha, Rolemaster, Call of Cthulhu, Marvel Super Heroes, Star Frontiers, Palladium Fantasy Role-Playing Game, Tunnels & Trolls, etc.
The OSR also includes the various retro-clones being published.
But it's never been limited to only D&D.
On the view that it means a renaissance in publication of material for out-of-print games, I reckon folks using the term started pretty quickly to notice things beyond the D&D domain. However, the phenomenon remains D&D-centric, with expanding rings of less closely related (or widely shared) affinities: other TSR products, other games in some regard similar to D&D, other games that were also popular in the neighborhood, etc.
Tunnels & Trolls, Chivalry & Sorcery, RuneQuest and other contemporaries were in various ways expressions -- sometimes trumpeting -- of philosophies their creators and enthusiasts saw in opposition to that of the "boss of the status quo" that old D&D was.
That can be even more pronounced today since differences often correspond to differences between the opposing schools of D&D. TSR's market was vast compared with its rivals', so when "old school" gets defined as an ethos the ones doing it with the loudest voice are coming from that mass. It's their view that, in the eyes of most folks who identify themselves with "the OSR", says which works (old or new) are included under the rubric.
People who are fans of this or that game but
not of D&D are at a handicap if they wish to be widely regarded as "old school." From what I've seen, the views of fans of a game count for less than the views of it of never-played-it constructors of "old school" theory.
Quote from: DavetheLost;854364The OSR hasn't reclaimed FRP because the OSR does not exist as a monolithic entity. The OSR is whoever wants to be OSR. Want publish an OSR game? Publish a game and call it OSR. Others may or may not agree that it is an OSR game, but there is no governing authority to make it stick.
That fact of life grates on some people's nerves. There's a practical consideration: If you're not allowed to refer to trademarks such as "D&D" because of the OGL, how do you capitalize on the network externalities of the plethora of variously named product lines that are about as compatible with yours as TSR's various lines were with each other?
Since "Old School" is not feasible to acquire as an actual legal trademark, the fight over who gets to use it is instead political.
Quote from: Exploderwizard;854743If you are taking actions and interacting with the environment in an imagined scenario then you are in fact role playing.
Speaking in a fake accent, attempting to justify your actions as "in character", or hell, even playing a character who isn't you are all just theatrics.
That's my own view as well. The 'thespian' view of what's "not role-playing" came to my attention back in the '80s, and seems to have become a conventional wisdom.
I even see people distinguish combat activity as a separate domain. If one starts with that assumption, perhaps it supports the view that a usually big part of the game can be divorced from considerations that might (by any definition) be key to role-playing.
I never much cared for "frp" as a term.
Quote from: Christopher Brady;854341Because the OSR has always been about D&D and nothing else.
So, it should use the term "fantasy wargame" ?
Quote from: TristramEvans;857026So, it should use the term "fantasy wargame" ?
Well, yes. But this 'movement' is not known for their facts.
Quote from: TristramEvans;857026So, it should use the term "fantasy wargame" ?
"Fantastic medieval wargame"
Unfortunately, "wargame" has also shifted in usage since the '70s.
Completely agree on the role-playing comments. Dave Weseley didn't like the term, either. In retrospect, it may have been the seed of a departure similar to the seemingly-innocuous use of "story".