So tell me, what's the substantive difference between, for example, Old Traveller "Roll below your skill level +8 (plus mods)" and GURPS "Roll over your skill minus modifers"?

Seriously. Isn't the mechanic essentially the same either direction? The difference is in the mods - additive for roll over, subtractive for roll under.

Of course, I'm not a mechanics guy for the most part - fluff is my department.

Quote from: WerekoalaSo tell me, what's the substantive difference between, for example, Old Traveller "Roll below your skill level +8 (plus mods)" and GURPS "Roll over your skill minus modifers"?

Seriously. Isn't the mechanic essentially the same either direction? The difference is in the mods - additive for roll over, subtractive for roll under.

Of course, I'm not a mechanics guy for the most part - fluff is my department.

 I think you made a typo.

 BOTH games are a "roll-under" or "Roll-below-target-number" system.


- Ed C.

Quote from: KoltarI think you made a typo.

 BOTH games are a "roll-under" or "Roll-below-target-number" system.

Argh, dammit.

See, I get all tangled up in mechanics and end up looking like a goof.

So what's a roll OVER system then?

There is no difference between roll-under and roll-over, except for blind superstitious prejudice, apparently based mostly on whatever system was the person's first. I started with OD&D and Traveller, so I have no prejudice either way.

Quote from: balzacqThere is no difference between roll-under and roll-over, except for blind superstitious prejudice, apparently based mostly on whatever system was the person's first. I started with OD&D and Traveller, so I have no prejudice either way.

I don't think that's entirely true.  I prefer roll-over systems, because they're more open-ended in scale.  In particular, I prefer systems like Rolemaster, Unisystem and CORPS that allow for open-ended rolls so that no matter how high the difficulty, there's always a slim chance of success...that 'one-in-a-million' shot.  I also find them easier to work with and more flexible, but that's my own preference.

Given the average IQ of users here (Fucktard) I guess I shouldn't be surprised that most of them forgot I'm into gurps as well, despite the fact if I had it to do over again I would not be due to the dickness of some of the game's players (Koltar, paladin) and the assholishness of some of the people at SJG (Andy hackard, steve jackson)

But the fact remains that I like gurps even if I refuse to capitalize it like a true SJG fhanboi and that I've banned SJ himself from participating in any gurps games I run at conventions. So I will speak out on  it's behalf.

There's an old saying about gurps that goes "Gurps is like a cow, you can't possibly eat the whole thing, just take the parts you like!" That's true, there is so much to gurps you can't use it all in any sane of feasible game. I never use magic, for example, so I don't have the magic book. I run SF games so don't have the fantasy book. So the rules for magic anf fantasy settings don't matter to me, but as to the complaint that "I took the fireball spell but couldn't throw it so gurps sucks!" strikes me as wrong. I mean, you have a wizard who spends all his times learning magic by reading tomes and pouring over scrolls, so he learns to form an explosive fireball in his hand.

But because he never learned to throw things or built up his arm muscles, he can't throw the damn thing. Hey, unless the spell allows you to make a self-propelled fireball in your hand, you need to be able to throw it for effect, so learning to throw and maybe building up the arm muscle should be part of if. Don't want to? Then learn to cast lighting bolts instead.

That actually strikes me as very reasonable, if you want to throw fireballs you have to be able to make them, then throw them.

As to the skills, yeah, there are a lot. So? Gurps has to handle all genres, so it needs drive gravcar skill as well as drive oxcart. It needs fusion gun skill along with crossbow skill and it needs computer operation rules as well as scrying rules.

Duh! If a game covers one genre, technology and setting, a'la D&D, it doesn't need skills to cover all time periods. A game that covers all genres and eras needs many times more skills. Duuuuuh!

Also gurps allows you to set various levels of realism into the various genres. Hardcore, cinematic or somewhere inbetween. That gives you more options but takes more rules. Duuuuuuuh!

Also, at least gurps has hit locations and various damage rules for various locations. Most D20 games make those a tucked aside option at most. I like hit locations.

So while gurps may be made by a company I generally hate and played by some people I'd like a chance to spit on, it's still a great system and much better than d20, hero or most other 'universal' systems.

Nox, you like a decent system like GURPS for all the wrong reasons.

Fireball...realism...same sentence...hit locations...oh man.

Well, at least it´s a respite from the same old same old culture war.
It´s actually refreshing.

Quote from: SettembriniWell, at least it´s a respite from the same old same old culture war.
It´s actually refreshing.

I agree. It's a little weird but I like Koltar's joke analogy. I like Nox's defense. I like talking about GURPS. And actually I'd like to start a game going against some of what Nox said. Eat the whole cow, so to speak. Have a game where EVERYTHING is acceptable. Some gonzo wahoo game where a knuckleheaded spell casting cave man goes Cthulu hunting with his ultra tech robotic insectoid archeologist friend from Betelgeuse 5.... maybe.

Quote from: darI agree. It's a little weird but I like Koltar's joke analogy. I like Nox's defense. I like talking about GURPS. And actually I'd like to start a game going against some of what Nox said. Eat the whole cow, so to speak. Have a game where EVERYTHING is acceptable. Some gonzo wahoo game where a knuckleheaded spell casting cave man goes Cthulu hunting with his ultra tech robotic insectoid archeologist friend from Betelgeuse 5.... maybe.

I like the way you think. Don't forget the wisecracking tough as nails but soft and vulnerable female reporter sidekick who knows ju-jitsu.

The real problem is people who don't get GURPS not GURPS itself.  There's a certain design philosophy that people indoctrinated with D&D think (or stupidity as I like to call it) just have trouble getting their heads around.

In GURPS your character can try to do anything.  It doesn't have to be on your character sheet.  People buy these ridiculous shopping lists without any consideration for game effects of the same.  If you want hard to kill + immune to disease + cast iron stomach, you just buy some Health.  GURPS has a pyramidal structure within which you only buy stuff like advantages if you want to specialize beyond what's represented in the attibute.

Similarly the skill list allows tremendous specialization but if you want a broad based fighter buy Dexterity and weapons with few points in them.  If you want Broadsword, Great Sword, and Shortsword, just put the points into Broadsword and use defaults for the others.

Lastly, the old High DX high IQ problem has largely been fixed in fourth edition.  Now you pay 10 / level for ST and HT and 20 / level for DX and IQ though if you strip off the Will and Perception from IQ you can get it down to 10 / level.

Quote from: darI agree. It's a little weird but I like Koltar's joke analogy. I like Nox's defense. I like talking about GURPS. And actually I'd like to start a game going against some of what Nox said. Eat the whole cow, so to speak. Have a game where EVERYTHING is acceptable. Some gonzo wahoo game where a knuckleheaded spell casting cave man goes Cthulu hunting with his ultra tech robotic insectoid archeologist friend from Betelgeuse 5.... maybe.

Actually there is something like that. It's called "Gurps Rifts".

There are 5 steps to it:

1. Get rifts.
2. Get gurps.
3. Tell Kevin Seimbada it's "Too bad." he doesn't like people porting rifts stuff to other systems.
4. Tell Steve Jackson to "Eat shit and die." if he doesn't like people violating KS's wishes about porting stuff to gurps.
5. Port rifts stuff to gurps and play gurps rifts.


BTW, it's Cthulhu.....

Quote from: SettembriniNox, you like a decent system like GURPS for all the wrong reasons.

Fireball...realism...same sentence...hit locations...oh man.

Well, at least it´s a respite from the same old same old culture war.
It´s actually refreshing.

Tiresome bashing on me aside, the spell for fireball says it lets you create a fireball that explodes on impact after you THROW it at your target. So where is it unfair to say that you have to throw it?

I mean, shit, if I sell you a hand grenade do you expect it to throw itself at the enemy?

Being able to make a fireball and being able to throw it are two different things. The example that goes "Gurps sucks because I couldn't throw a fireball after learning to cast it!" is therefore fallacious.

Like I said, if you want a typical weak wizard with no throwing arm, learn to cast lighting bolts or other spells that don't require an effort to throw them.


Please note I'm defending Sean Punch and Dave Pulver here, not the rest of the SJG crew. I'd defending gurps and the people who write it, no one else.

Quote from: Dominus NoxActually there is something like that. It's called "Gurps Rifts".

There are 5 steps to it:

1. Get rifts.
2. Get gurps.
3. Tell Kevin Seimbada it's "Too bad." he doesn't like people porting rifts stuff to other systems.
4. Tell Steve Jackson to "Eat shit and die." if he doesn't like people violating KS's wishes about porting stuff to gurps.
5. Port rifts stuff to gurps and play gurps rifts.

My brother bought GURPS to run Rifts.

I remember someone did a bunch of work porting rifts to gurps. Then caught all kinds of highlife from palladium about it. I think the home page is still up somewhere.... here!

I love google.

Quote from: dar....... Eat the whole cow, so to speak. Have a game where EVERYTHING is acceptable. Some gonzo wahoo game where a knuckleheaded spell casting cave man goes Cthulu hunting with his ultra tech robotic insectoid archeologist friend from Betelgeuse 5.... maybe.

 Eat the Whole Cow!! I love that motto now.  Really silly catch-phrase for gaming. (Its Doc Rotwang that came up with the cool picture version of that analogy)

 As for those two character suggestions  :

1. Knuckleheaded cave man Cthulu hunter
....and the....
2. Ultra-Tech Robotic Insectoid Archeologist from Betelgeuse 5

 I accept the challenge. Those are the next TWO characters I make with the GCA.

- Ed C.