QuoteAgain, unlike D&D, which models reality successfully. :tears: :wtfsign:

Really, are you serious? Fool's day is already gone. :confused:

You moron.

I talked about "What GURPS wants to be good at".

This is not about D&D. D&D is about shitloads of other stuff.

That´s why there is a need for something like GURPS.

But GURPS doesn´t fulfill any of it´s alleged niche areas of expertise:

Point buy
Realism

It fails miserably in both.

Quote from: SettembriniSo, the game with few mechanical options is not as diverse as the ones with more mechanical options.

Diversity = V + M

where

V = f(groupskills)
M = mechinacally different options

True, a V might be so large as to make the mere + M irrelevant. But that does not in any way amount to a quality of a game system.

For a moment I read the first line as "Diversity = VtM." I thought he had gone over to the Swine there. The horror.

Other than that, this seems to be about aesthetic choices. Which is to say: important choices.

In a recent rpg.net review thread (of AD&D 1E?) it was pointed out that the game had a lot of funky progressions (saves) and subsystems (thieving skills are percentiles)... and besides, what's with using half a dozen different dice when one or two are sufficient, etc. etc.? To which somebody replied that the more you differentiate these elements the more independent weight each one of them has. Thieving is distinct from combat is distinct from spellcasting. A short sword does d6 damage, and not d8.

Fine. Having said that, can't one have both--diversity folded into a (more or less) single mechanic? I know only slightly more about Rolemaster than I know about GURPS--but isn't that a fair description of what it achieves?

All I can say is, when I rolled up a character or two in HARP I was not bored at all.

Quote from: ClaudiusAgain, unlike D&D, which models reality successfully.

I think a fundamental difference here is that GURPS... or at least it's major apologists... purport it as a feature when contrasting it with D&D.

Just an observation of the respective statements. If GURPS works for you, have fun with it.

QuoteFine. Having said that, can't one have both--diversity folded into a (more or less) single mechanic?

There´s people who´d say D20 is just that.
I´d say Battletech games do that way, way better.

But let´s not talk about other games.

Does GURPS deliver any mechical diversity?

No.

And that´s why it remains a joke of a system.

Quote from: SettembriniYou moron.

I talked about "What GURPS wants to be good at".

This is not about D&D. D&D is about shitloads of other stuff.

That´s why there is a need for something like GURPS.

But GURPS doesn´t fulfill any of it´s alleged niche areas of expertise:

Point buy
Realism

It fails miserably in both.

When you say point buy, I guess you mean character balance (because GURPS cannot fail at having a point buy system, it does have it :confused: ). The problem is both Character Balance and Realism are two slippery squirrels, you try to catch them, and when you're near and about to close your hands, they run and you have nothing.

In other words, there are subsystems in GURPS that are lacking regarding Character Balance and Realism, yes, but tell me, which game hasn't got problems with those?

To all you little GURPS-loving fuckers:

I do not hate GURPS.
You can have a ball with it, like you can have with any skill based system. GURPS, BRP, Mechwarrior = it´s all the same basicallly.

It´s one of the oroginal pillars of Adventure Gaming, it´s needed and it is wanted.

But it is not nearly as well done as it should be.
I want the level of sophistication of D&D for any part of the hobby.

I do not want the same kind of sophistication.

QuoteThe problem is both Character Balance and Realism are two slippery squirrels, you try to catch them, and when you're near and about to close your hands, they run and you have nothing.

Which is exactly what happened.

QuoteIn other words, there are subsystems in GURPS that are lacking regarding Character Balance and Realism, yes, but tell me, which game hasn't got problems with those?

Any game that gives fuck about one or the other.

Balance over realism = D&D,
Realism over balance = Harnmaster

Quote from: Caesar SlaadI think a fundamental difference here is that GURPS... or at least it's major apologists... purport it as a feature when contrasting it with D&D.

Of course!! D&D doesn't even try to be realistic. The moment I realized that, I accepted OD&D, AD&D and D&D3 with open arms. D&D is so, asking D&D for realism is like asking a lemon tree for oranges.

On the other hand, that's one of the reasons I'm not much into D&D, realism is not one of its concern. Which is fine, I don't see it as a failure, rather as a feature.

And this is the reason why I'm against Settembrini's opinion. I can understand some of you don't like GURPS, I can understand that GURPS may deserve some criticism, but being told that GURPS is a joke and a failure? :confused:

Quote from: SettembriniI...am...staggered.
Is this question serious?

You ask me why a point buy chargen should be balanced in point values?

I can´t be communicating this badly, you must be unbelievably dumb.

I'm unbelievably dumb? How can you say that with a straight face. Lets take a look at Rifts for a second the discrepancy say between a rogue scholar and a Ley Line Walker. They both have a bevy of skills. But the ley line walker has magic at their disposal making them infinitely more powerful. Yet people seem to be able to play these characters side by side. There are those on this very board that revel in the rogue scholar. And seem to be able to play them well. Even though they are weaker than almost all other classes. Lets look at 3.5 D&D. Lets compare a Bard to a ranger. In comparison the bard is a foppish asshat thats not really good for much. Yet their are plenty of people who play a bard successfully. Theres no reason that a less powerful character cant be played along side more powerful ones. Or played well on their own. It sounds to me like your the ignorant one. Nothing has to be equal, accept in your mind. Just because your to weak to take on a non power gaming character, is not proof that I'm dumb. Only that you are unable to take on challenges. Which would make you a pretty week roleplayer in my opinion.

Quote from: SettembriniAny game that gives fuck about one or the other.

Balance over realism = D&D,
Realism over balance = Harnmaster

Funny that. I take part in a Spanish forum, and one of the most beloved threads is about how much the sorcerer sucks in comparison to a magician.

And I remember, from my times playing OD&D, that the magician at high levels put to shame all other character classes.

Yes, D&D has always been about character balance, but it's an goal it has never fully attained. And I can understand it, it's a really difficult goal.

About Hârnmaster, no criticism comes to my head (it's a game I like), but if I try hard enough, I'll get some. For example, strength hasn't got much influence on the damage a character can deliver.

Ronin, Rifts is not GURPS.

You can play unbalanced systems your whole life, and be happy and healthy. I do so, except when forced to do otherwise. You don´t have to go to extreme ridicolousness in balance like Rifts. Traveller is just as unbalanced.

But they don´t have a point buy system.

What is the purpose of a point buy system?

Please tell me!

Quote from: ClaudiusOf course!! D&D doesn't even try to be realistic. The moment I realized that, I accepted OD&D, AD&D and D&D3 with open arms. D&D is so, asking D&D for realism is like asking a lemon tree for oranges.

To be fair, D&D3.x is realistic in that it is very internally consistant, which is as much as I can really ask for in a game.

Also:

Quote from: RoninIn comparison the bard is a foppish asshat thats not really good for much.

This is mechanically not the case.

Carry on.

Quote from: SettembriniWhat is the purpose of a point buy system?

You're implying that point buy systems are aimed at balancing characters.  In my experience, point buy systems are the easiest to munchkin.  What they give you is an equal opportunity to munchkin.  So in that aspect, they are balanced.

QuoteIn my experience, point buy systems are the easiest to munchkin.  

Because all point buy systems have seen sloppy execution.
I´ll not accept: "It´s always been like that" as an excuse.

Quote from: SettembriniRonin, Rifts is not GURPS.

You can play unbalanced systems your whole life, and be happy and healthy. I do so, except when forced to do otherwise. You don´t have to go to extreme ridicolousness in balance like Rifts. Traveller is just as unbalanced.

But they don´t have a point buy system.

What is the purpose of a point buy system?

Please tell me!

To put together the kind of character that you want. Be it a muchkinized combat monster, or a skilled individual. Or a mix of the two.
To create what you want, with out limiting classes, pigeon holeing you into something.