Quote from: SettembriniNo. I´m saying any game with just a big list of skills and a simple mechanism for rolling them is not actually diverse, but mechanically bland.

Imagine D20 without feats, spells, maneuvres.
now add a table with X+1 skill.

How can that be "diverse"?

So what is it that you think makes d20 "diverse" when you claim GURPS is not? Regardless of whether you are swinging a sword or using a non-combat skill, you have a simple mechanic in which your die roll is modified by the bonuses/penalties incurred by the various feats, spells, and maneuvers that affect what you are doing; the goal is to roll over an "target/difficulty number" that is generally arbitrarily assigned.

It's the same with GURPS...the differences being

• In GURPS, your combat skills are true skills that anyone can acquire and improve individually and usually at any time between adventures, rather than abilities that are tied into a specific role that you portray (fighter, cleric, etc) and can only improve at specified intervals ("level advancement").
• You are rolling against your effective skill (skill level +/- modifiers), with an 18 being a automatic failure of one sort or another.

Quote from: James J SkachSo the idea is that because the mechanic is the same, it gives the characters the same feel?

Huh.

Never would have occurred to me. To me what a made a character unique or not was what made up the character/how the character was played. Mechanics were there only to resolve issues that required it. The reason I liked that D&D went from % rolls to d20 for thief skills was it removed something to worry about (is this a % roll or a d20 roll, that is, the mechanical aspect) and allowed for more focus on the character.

Amazing how different people perceive different things...

And to emphasize that, it is very much the perception and preferences of the player. One person, such as yourself, may wish a more simplified approach, while another craves the crunch. I have run Iridium for several Harn and RM players who decried Iridium as too simple and as a lite system. I would never describe Iridium as lite...heck, I am hesitant to call Iridium Lite "lite" int he classic sense.

So, yes, much of it, as in most matters RPG, it comes down to preference.

Bill

Quote from: HinterWeltAnd to emphasize that, it is very much the perception and preferences of the player. One person, such as yourself, may wish a more simplified approach, while another craves the crunch. I have run Iridium for several Harn and RM players who decried Iridium as too simple and as a lite system. I would never describe Iridium as lite...heck, I am hesitant to call Iridium Lite "lite" int he classic sense.

So, yes, much of it, as in most matters RPG, it comes down to preference.

Bill

And the reason it doesn't bothers me in Iridium (to any great extent other than the OCD side of me rearing it's ugle head) is because there is a good line of demarcation.  I'm not about to perform Knowledge (History) in the middle of combat. So d20 over here (combat), percentage over there (skill).

Though as I'm typing that and thinking about D&D, I can see a thief using hide in shadows or move silently during a combat. And I'm not familiar enough with Iridium, yet, to know how that would play out.

Now back to your thread about GURPS...

Quote from: James J SkachSo the idea is that because the mechanic is the same, it gives the characters the same feel?

Huh.

Never would have occurred to me. To me what a made a character unique or not was what made up the character/how the character was played. Mechanics were there only to resolve issues that required it.

Sett did say something to the effect of "If all there is to the character is what's on the sheet..."

-clash

Quote from: flyingmiceSett did say something to the effect of "If all there is to the character is what's on the sheet..."

-clash

Awww C'mon Clash.  I went through all that trouble to type "how the character was played" after the little slashy dealie and everything.

QuoteSett did say something to the effect of "If all there is to the character is what's on the sheet..."

With the word mechanically firmly applied!

Look the variance supplied by outside forces is always the same, a function of the gaming group.


So, the game with few mechanical options is not as diverse as the ones with more mechanical options.

Diversity = V + M

where

V = f(groupskills)
M = mechinacally different options

True, a V might be so large as to make the mere + M irrelevant. But that does not in any way amount to a quality of a game system.

You can say: GURPS inspires me to make XYZ-characters. But it does not, in any way lend you a mechanical hand. because there are not many mechanics.

Compare a warblade to a fighter = huge mechanical difference.
Compare GURPS character A to GURPS character B. Mechanically the same.
A list of skills, with some colour added.

Quote from: SettembriniWith the word mechanically firmly applied!

Look the variance supplied by outside forces is always the same, a function of the gaming group.


So, the game with few mechanical options is not as diverse as the ones with more mechanical options.

Diversity = V + M

where

V = f(groupskills)
M = mechinacally different options

True, a V might be so large as to make the mere + M irrelevant. But that does not in any way amount to a quality of a game system.

You can say: GURPS inspires me to make XYZ-characters. But it does not, in any way lend you a mechanical hand. because there are not many mechanics.

Compare a warblade to a fighter = huge mechanical difference.
Compare GURPS character A to GURPS character B. Mechanically the same.
A list of skills, with some colour added.

So...what...if GURPS added Feats you'd be OK? Otherwise, you seem to be comparing apples and oranges.

QuoteSo...what...if GURPS added Feats you'd be OK? Otherwise, you seem to be comparing apples and oranges.

No-
I don´t want to change GURPS into D&D.
But I want GURPS to be as professional as D&D.

I know GURPS is "just" a big skill list. And it shall remain one. But please, please, please with sugar on top:

Make up your mind on what breadth these skills have!
Balance the fuckers!

That´s why GURPS is a joke:

It doesn´t do what it is supposed to do: Provide equal amount of ability for an equal amount of points.

Or model reality in any meaningful way.

The point I made upthread was to fight some of the ridicolous stuff that Nox posted. My main points are here and in the OP.

Quote from: SettembriniNo-
I don´t want to change GURPS into D&D.
But I want GURPS to be as professional as D&D.

I know GURPS is "just" a big skill list. And it shall remain one. But please, please, please with sugar on top:

Make up your mind on what breadth these skills have!
Balance the fuckers!

That´s why GURPS is a joke:

It doesn´t do what it is supposed to do: Provide equal amount of ability for an equal amount of points.

Or model reality in any meaningful way.

The point I made upthread was to fight some of the ridicolous stuff that Nox posted. My main points are here and in the OP.

Sett, I'm not politically correct. I'm also a racist bigot hatemonger who happens to believe other people have a right to their views even if they're different than mine as long as tey don't force their views on me.

As I wait for the boys to come by and pick me up for our weekly lynching, I will just say you can believe anything you want about gurps, you can even troll and flamebait over it, that's you're business.

Unlike the Oh so tolerant PC koolaid drinkers here, I'm not going to harass and abuse you incessantly for your view even if it doesn't agree with mine.

So think what you want of gurps.

Anyway, the truck's here and we've got some necks to stretch....

Quote from: SettembriniNo-
I don´t want to change GURPS into D&D.
But I want GURPS to be as professional as D&D.

I know GURPS is "just" a big skill list. And it shall remain one. But please, please, please with sugar on top:

Make up your mind on what breadth these skills have!
Balance the fuckers!

Why? Why does it have to be balanced?

Quote from: SettembriniThat´s why GURPS is a joke:

It doesn´t do what it is supposed to do: Provide equal amount of ability for an equal amount of points.

Really I though what a game was supposed to do was be fun and enjoyable by the participants.

Quote from: SettembriniOr model reality in any meaningful way.

Wow. Did you just say GURPS isnt realistic enough? If anything sometimes its to realistic.

Quote from: SettembriniThe point I made upthread was to fight some of the ridicolous stuff that Nox posted. My main points are here and in the OP.

So the rest of it was just you hating on people, and/or a game that you dont like?

Quote from: Lord SvengaliThat depends upon your style of play.

Isn't it always? That is, of course, why the quoted statement is prefaced with IMO.

QuoteI've always viewed telling players "You must include this, that, and the other thing among your characters" is pretty much forcing the players to create characters that conform to the GM's idea of how the game will progress.

Don't get me wrong. I grew up an old traveller GM. Letting players come up with solutions with a variety of approaches is part of my GMing nature.

But there came a point where I realized that the composition of the party played a big part in defining what the game, as a whole, was about. I found that all too often with freeform point-buy games, I was finding the playstyle being too entirely determined by player whim and too little attention being payed to what I was interested in/good at as a GM. So as I grew as a GM, I realized the importance of establishing boundaries and core competencies for the action at hand in producing an enjoyable game.

QuoteRather, at the start of a campaign, I have already worked out a rough storyline, and I give the players a bit of information that will allow them to create suitable characters. I do not require them to do so, however; most of my players are experienced enough to create characters that will complement each other nicely.

Perhaps it's my background, but I've been historically involved with a fluid group of players in the best of time and really couldn't rely on the players arriving at the table with a good enough sense of teamwork to pull that off without some external guidelines, and I seldom considered it worth the time for them to naturally evolve to that state. I've come to find it more convenient to utilize games that set those guidelines in the rules, or gives the GM the tools to do so (the one thing I really disliked about the HERO 5e revision was the gutting of the package deal mechanic.)

QuoteAs the game progresses, they learn the hard way which skills they are lacking should probably pick up. Even if they don't have a particular skill that is needed to accomplish a particular segment of the adventure, they can usually attempt it at a default; if they find that they need the skill more than once or twice, somebody is bound to learn it. If they absolutely need the skill in order to succeed, with no other means of success open to them, I will usually allow the PC most likely to possess it to spend a character point on the spot to have the skill.

And again, this goes back to the post I was replying to: this is really nothing that I couldn't do in d20 in some form. Skills aren't so exclusive in d20 that no class in a well balanced party won't have easy access to any needed skill at some level, and some d20 implementations explicitly support spontaneous use of skills or other abilities (e.g., the feat emulation in the Unearthed Acana action point rules, or the mission training picks or I can swim feat in Spycraft 2.0.)

Assaulting all of D20 like it had no skills & feats like it was C&C (a system that I loathe for the qualities it has that Nox pretends is true of D20 in general) doesn't really say anything about d20 as a whole.

please ignore

@Nox:
And that says what?

That´s no defence of GURPS, just some shotgun snark.

Do I come across PC?
Have I fought for your right of free speech?
Have I insulted you with the implications you made?
Wasn´t it other people who accuse you with that?

The only accusations I made against you, was that you like GURPS for reasons that aren´t in the game. GURPS is a nice thing, and it´s no shame to bne playing it. But the stuff you have attributed it with doesn´t actually exist.

So get off your cross, at least while you are speaking to me.
I´ve got nothing to do with your politics, I don´t care.

QuoteWhy? Why does it have to be balanced?

I...am...staggered.
Is this question serious?

You ask me why a point buy chargen should be balanced in point values?

I can´t be communicating this badly, you must be unbelievably dumb.

Quote from: SettembriniBut I want GURPS to be as professional as D&D.

:confused:

QuoteI know GURPS is "just" a big skill list.

A skill list, an advantage list, a disadvantage list... :rolleyes:

What did the Romans do for us?

QuoteThat´s why GURPS is a joke:

It doesn´t do what it is supposed to do: Provide equal amount of ability for an equal amount of points.

Unlike D&D, wherein two same level character have the same ability. :roofle:

QuoteOr model reality in any meaningful way.

Again, unlike D&D, which models reality successfully. :tears: :wtfsign:

Really, are you serious? Fool's day is already gone. :confused:

Jesus, now I know how a D&D fan feels when, in spite of having lots of fun with D&D, he is told that D&D is a substandard game and he's having badwrongfun. :rolleyes:

Well, sorry Settembrini, I don't want to offend you, but this is what I think of this thread:

:lamer: