Quote from: SettembriniWhereas geology is just geology [no historical geology, geomorphology, quarternary geology, impact geology, paleontology, in-situ analysis, lab working skill, soil science, geophysics, structural geology etc. ad nauseam].

As a professional geologist, I can attest that this is, in fact, the case.  There is only "Geology".  All of those little subsets are just jokes we made up long ago so we have something to talk about at society meetings.  GURPS somehow got in on the secret and nailed it just right.

For my part, the bit that always got me about GURPS -- and I realise that, as with about 70% of the published matieral, it's wholly optional -- was buying a character's personality.  Aspects of personality that should have come to be as a natural progression of play have point costs.  To be fair, GURPS is not the only game to implement this specious rule.

!i!

Actually, to be precise, personality traits don't "cost" you points, they gain you points. Things like cowardice, code of honour, laziness, chummy, etc, are "disadvantages" in GURPS - they're Disadvantages because they limit your freedom of action with a character.

That means you get extra points to build your character with if you commit to roleplaying them a certain way. Anyone can occasionally be cowardly, honourable, lazy, or chummy - but if you commit to roleplaying your character consistently by taking any of those as Disadvantages, then you get extra points for good stuff.

The player who has some idea of what their character will be like - thus allowing the GM to plan for it, and other players to adjust their own characters to it, and tie them together - and commits to playing their character in that way, gets to have more cool stuff.

I don't see that as a bad thing. Planning ahead, and playing with a degree of consistency - I'm happy to have players rewarded for that.

Offhand I'd say medical skills have more direct application to most games than Geology so they shouldn't be equal. That and GURPS combat system warrents more detail in both dealing and healing damage.

That being said I much prefer GURPS Lite (3e over 4e for more completeness & several tailored genre versions) or Powered by GURPS over core+. While I like the idea of the templates in theory and they work nice with the chargen programs, they produce a long list of skills, ads and disads I don't care for. They also take up a good bit of space.

Which is why I buy GURPS books for info and play using other games. BESM 2e with bits from other Tri-Stat games (margin of success, damage multipliers, etc.) accomplishes much of the same feel I want out of GURPS with a much smaller skill and ad/disad list. "Hexstat" (Tekumel: Empire of the Petal Throne uses a modified 6 stat version of BESM) is even closer out of the box.

Not fully tried out GURPS 4e yet nor BESM 3e. Both look nice but I don't have to have full color full option books and roll low isn't a deal breaker for me.

I really never had a problem this GURPS skills. If the skills given were to narrow, I just broadened them. No big deal.

I'm a big GURPS fan, so I may have lost objectivity, but I'm trying.

Someone said it before. A medical doctor is more powerful than a geologist. In order to reflect this without having special rules for uber expensive skills that leave characters with an overall minuscule chance of doing any thing with said skill, it gets broken up into smaller skills. I think this is what they were trying to achieve.

I think this is done for game balance as much as anything else. It may be the wrong decision and lead to a plethora of skills... but I for one like choices and character customization.

Where the sam hell is koltar?

Most of the complaints I see here (minus the "skills' value variance") have been fixed in 4th ed.  

The variance issue, Sett, that you're raising is indeed a balance issue.  The compendium problem is completely gone now, being that a trimmed and generic skill set is in the Basic Set now.

I've run 4th ed., and found it to be at once easier and more fun than 3rd.  I've had tons of fun with both, mind you, but haven't had the chance to play as much as I'd like.

Since turnabout's fair play: your favorite game sucks too, Sett.  

Quote from: joewolzMost of the complaints I see here (minus the "skills' value variance") have been fixed in 4th ed.  

The variance issue, Sett, that you're raising is indeed a balance issue.  The compendium problem is completely gone now, being that a trimmed and generic skill set is in the Basic Set now.

I've run 4th ed., and found it to be at once easier and more fun than 3rd.  I've had tons of fun with both, mind you, but haven't had the chance to play as much as I'd like.

Since turnabout's fair play: your favorite game sucks too, Sett.  

I don't know if I'd call the 4th ed skill list trim - it can still be a bit unwieldy at times.  But the wildcard skill option helps that a lot.

Now, if only the advantages/disadvantages weren't quite as all over the place (personally, I think Hero's reliance on effect-based ads/disads makes much more sense).

But still, GURPS is perfectly playable and I'm sure some people have a lot of fun with it (3d6 roll under always seems a little dull to me, but other people seem to like it).

GURPS not perfect, film at 11:00!

That said, yes--the skill composition of GURPS is a reasonable target for complaint.

But making the game a joke? Not so much.

-Marco

Quote from: darWhere the sam hell is Koltar?

 Guys, I have to do normal things like SLEEP sometimes.


 Settembrini started this thread probably after I had laid down to get 5 to 7 hours worth of sleep.
 Which in GURPS terms probably  means I've regained some points in my HP score. Woo-Hoo!!


 You know starting a thread just to trash someone's favorite game is kind of silly.  I've partcipated in D20 and DitV threads  - but I didn't start them.   Besides GURPS (both 4th/e and 3rd/e), I I also own the rules to D&D/D20 (PHB, DMG, DMG II,  Eberron setting book, Cityscape), SAVAGE WORLDS ,  SERENITY :the RPG , SPACESHIP ZERO , the classic TRAVELLER hardback book (also have 25 + of the LBBs) The WARLORD game sttting from REAPER Miniatures,  and the  newer WORLD Of DARKNESS core rulebook
 Of all those choices, I still prefer the GURPS 4th/e  rules for their ease of use.

- Ed C.

To twist this around : If GURPS is a joke then its one that a lot of us like telling and groups of people enjoy hearing our version of the joke.

 Ever seen the movie The ARISTOCRATS ?  Its an extremely funny documentary movie about one joke. Thats right ONE Joke.
 This is a joke that comedians usually told each other  behind-the-scenes or at parties.  Its a filthy , scatological dirty joke.  It is als one that could be told dozens of different ways. ...as long as the punchline winds up the same or mostly the same. (0kay maybe hundreds of ways it could be told)

 This documentary showed that even something like a  Joke might be considered a work or art and others could change it around the way jazz musivcians do with a piece of music.

 So to add it all together...:

 If GURPS is a joke - then Sett doesn't get it and is still trying to understand the punchline.
 The rest of us who like and ENJOY  GURPS - we get the Joke and we're having fun telling it and sharing it .

- Ed C.

The Aristocrats wikipedia articles: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Aristocrats_%28film%29

The joke itself: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Aristocrats_%28joke%29
IMDB page : http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0436078/

I've got 3e and 4e - ironically, I've never played them.  I have them for reference.  I know it sounds silly, but I just seem to have a problem with the roll under thing.

Hi, my name is Jim, and I'm a roll-over addict...

Having said that, the main complaint was about skills (though I'd not use the term "laser" or "disection," personally).  I always saw the skill lists differently  I mean, if you were going to run a game where the main characters were pitting their Geology knowledge against the Evil Empire of Igneous From The 10th Dimension (tm), I'd expect Geology to be as granular as medical skills. If you ran a campaign where regeneration was a basic character trait (assume nobody needs healing), perhaps medical skills would be just as broad as Geology.

Your campaign will determine the skill list and the granularity of the various skills on that list.

What are you playing anyhow, Set? I mean, when you're not ripping on games other peeps play?

QuoteHaving said that, the main complaint was about skills (though I'd not use the term "laser" or "disection," personally). I always saw the skill lists differently I mean, if you were going to run a game where the main characters were pitting their Geology knowledge against the Evil Empire of Igneous From The 10th Dimension (tm), I'd expect Geology to be as granular as medical skills. If you ran a campaign where regeneration was a basic character trait (assume nobody needs healing), perhaps medical skills would be just as broad as Geology.

Your campaign will determine the skill list and the granularity of the various skills on that list.

Exactly. Now let´s review what GURPS promises to do:

Basic Rules + Campaign specific book(s) = ready to play.

And that´s just not the case. You have to balance the skill selection yourselves. Do you have an idea of the work involved? You might be as well drop GURPS and adapt the setting to your favorite skill based system (if that happens to be also GURPS, there you go).

The basic engine of GURPS obviously does work well, there´s nothing bad or special about it. The special thing about GURPS is:

- an allegedly balanced point buy system

And it just isn´t balanced, that´s why it is a joke.

Now there are hundreds of reasons to be playing GURPS, there are hundreds of sorts of fun to be had. But the point buy rules compared to their mission are: you guessed it, a joke. There´s no point denying that.

Or does anybody on these boards believe in the balance of GURPS point buy rules?

Quote from: Ian AbsentiaFor my part, the bit that always got me about GURPS -- and I realise that, as with about 70% of the published matieral, it's wholly optional -- was buying a character's personality.  Aspects of personality that should have come to be as a natural progression of play have point costs.  To be fair, GURPS is not the only game to implement this specious rule.

!i!

You know, it's funny... I've never played GURPS, and exactly for that reason, among others--the "psycho with Ninja skillz" point-buy paradigm etc. etc.

But now, as my Traveller fetish has suddenly reasserted itself and I find myself looking at GT Far Trader, some of those templates really do appeal. The Free Trader template would give me a guy who on one hand is a charismatic, gregarious, daring, intuitive J-o-T, and who on the other hand has baroque tastes (alcohol, gambling), dresses extravagantly, is overweight and greedy with a bad rep.

In other words, a guy who's just like this shifty merchant whom Kirk & Co. run into periodically in ST. In yet other words, a really cool dude I'd play in a heartbeat. I just need to buy him baldness, a fez and a couple of tasteless rings to wear (hopefully those are disads), and I'm good to go.

Quote from: James J SkachI've got 3e and 4e - ironically, I've never played them.  I have them for reference.  I know it sounds silly, but I just seem to have a problem with the roll under thing.

Hi, my name is Jim, and I'm a roll-over addict...

Me too.