Functionally identical, yes. Psychologically identical, no.

I mean seriously, it's not a game-breaker for me. I will in fact play a roll-under system; I like Heroquest, f'rex, and percentile roll-under is in fact largely okay with me. But it is a tiny downer - I just like rolling high numbers. So sue me. I won't deny myself a good game just because it's roll-under, but there's a little tiny black mark in its column. Just how I (excuse the pun) roll, dawgs.

Quote from: Christmas ApeI mean seriously, it's not a game-breaker for me. I will in fact play a roll-under system; I like Heroquest, f'rex, and percentile roll-under is in fact largely okay with me. But it is a tiny downer - I just like rolling high numbers. So sue me. I won't deny myself a good game just because it's roll-under, but there's a little tiny black mark in its column. Just how I (excuse the pun) roll, dawgs.

That's about where I am, though I find it easier to teach roll over systems to folk new to RPGs (which is another plus for them).

Ironically, I'm the one who brought up roll-over/roll-under AND defended GURPS skills from Sett's side-swipe.

Why does it have to be one system or the other?  My ideal would be a roll-over, probably d20 mechanic with the optional detail in skills/advantages/disadvantages from GURPS.  I'm liking Iridium's loose class system coupled with its Skill/XP mechanic.

I'm just trying to figure out how to mush it all together - and then put a computer behind it for complicated math (in theory leaving me without a specific d-type and a load more options to model things).

On Topic - GURPS is not a joke, it's a perfectly good system that supports the fun many people are having.  The fact that Sett seems to be upset and spraying the crowd notwithstanding.

@Clash - yeah, for some reason it does make a difference.  I can't explain it, I know its a mind thing, I know it's easier to do some things in one way and other things in the other.   But for some strange reason...I just prefer roll-over - to the point that I'd probably be more likely to buy a system with roll-over.  Then again, I've been buying GURPS for a couple of editions, just never played it. Don't know what that means for a broader market...it's just my 8 pence...

Incidentally, here's a post by Kromm (Sean Punch, editor of GURPS 4e) where he describes the  adventure fiction "everyman" skills. I quote it in blue below. It makes a minimum of 16 skills... It's interesting for GURPS players, for players of "adventurer" characters in general, and as a look into the philosophy behinds a lot of GURPS 4e's design.
   
Relying on defaults -- whatever the game system calls them -- is rarely fun. In GURPS, I hint that certain skills are necessary for adventurers, true action heroes or not, to keep the story flowing without annoying breaks caused by PCs being incompetent at tasks that adventure fiction commonly treats as "everyman" skills:

• Carousing, Diplomacy, Fast-Talk, or Interrogation -- Eventually, everybody wants to interrogate NPCs. I'm generous about what skills work, but some skill is required.
  
  
  
• Climbing, Hiking, and Stealth -- The party is only as good at these things as its worst party member, and nearly every party has to move around as a unit at some point.
  
  
  
• Driving or Riding -- Travel is vital to adventure, and while "every hero can drive/ride a horse" is often assumed, it isn't automatic in games that have skills for these things.
  
  
  
• First Aid -- Effective bandaging isn't an unskilled activity, AD&D notwithstanding. Non-action heroes often want to do this to "contribute" to party combat effectiveness, so they especially need this skill.
  
  
  
• Gesture -- Sooner or later, communication without making a sound will be vital to almost any party's survival.



• Observation, Scrounging, or Search -- Noticing interesting things takes training, and finding clues and useful items is so central to adventures that no PC should lack at least basic training here.
  
  
  
• Savoir-Faire or Streetwise -- Everybody came from somewhere. It's passing annoying when a player just assumes that her PC would "get on with folks in her element" without having any practical social skills to back up the assumption.
  

I further suggest -- strongly -- that action heroes have this list as well:

• Axe/Mace, Broadsword, Knife, Shortsword, or Staff -- Wielding a stick, knife, or heavy tool to any real effect requires practice. These common improvised weapons are not idiot-proof, trivial, or safe to use without training.
  
  
  
• Beam Weapons, Bow, Crossbow, or Guns -- However easy "point and shoot" looks, it's quite tough in reality. No credible action hero lacks competency at all ranged combat.
  
  
  
• Boxing, Brawling, or Karate -- Fisticuffs are the worst place to be untrained. Your fists are the only weapons you always have, so learn to use them.
  
  
  
• Forced Entry -- No, it isn't easy to kick in a door. Actually, unless you know how, you'll hurt yourself.



• Holdout -- "Concealable" equipment only works if you have skill at concealment, and frustratingly few players realize this.



• Judo, Sumo Wrestling, or Wrestling -- The number of people who think they should be able to grab others automatically is astounding. In fact, this is a difficult feat, trickier than hitting people, and absolutely requires training.
  
  
  
• Throwing -- Whether you're tossing spare magazines to friends or grenades at enemies, this is a trained skill, so it pays to know it.

I think that players would be far less unhappy about surprises if more GMs made lists like this and did everything possible to get players to take them seriously. A PC with Brawling, Fast-Talk, Forced Entry, Holdout, Knife, Scrounging, Stealth, and Wrestling should be able to make and conceal a shiv, overpower a guard, steal his clothes, sneak away from the scene, talk his way past the other guards, and leave through an inadequately bolted back door.[/COLOR]

Quote from: Christmas ApeFunctionally identical, yes. Psychologically identical, no.

I mean seriously, it's not a game-breaker for me. I will in fact play a roll-under system; I like Heroquest, f'rex, and percentile roll-under is in fact largely okay with me. But it is a tiny downer - I just like rolling high numbers. So sue me. I won't deny myself a good game just because it's roll-under, but there's a little tiny black mark in its column. Just how I (excuse the pun) roll, dawgs.

Umm - I didn't say it's bad or anything, dude! I've played roll-over and roll-under and everything in between, and had fun doing it! I just didn't think it was that big a deal. Since it obviously is to some people, I'll come up with something. That's why I asked the question.

Thanks, CA! I just wanted to know folks' opinions.

-clash

Quote from: James J Skach@Clash - yeah, for some reason it does make a difference.  I can't explain it, I know its a mind thing, I know it's easier to do some things in one way and other things in the other.   But for some strange reason...I just prefer roll-over - to the point that I'd probably be more likely to buy a system with roll-over.  Then again, I've been buying GURPS for a couple of editions, just never played it. Don't know what that means for a broader market...it's just my 8 pence...

Thanks, James. I appreciate you taking the time to answer the question. I probably should have put it in a separate thread though!

-clash

Actually though, GURPS is a joke because it stands for the Great Unnamed Roleplaying System.

Quote from: David JohansenActually though, GURPS is a joke because it stands for the Great Unnamed Roleplaying System.

True that.

Quote from: David JohansenActually though, GURPS is a joke because it stands for the Great Unnamed Roleplaying System.

In some ways calling it gurps really was just an attempt at being honest and unpretentious.

Also, it's impossible to confuse the term with anything else.

Nox!  You old softy!  You almost, just about, said something nice about Steve Jackson.

Quote from: JimBobOz

• Forced Entry -- No, it isn't easy to kick in a door. Actually, unless you know how, you'll hurt yourself.

.[/COLOR]

I'm going to have to disagee with this. I've kicked in more than one door in my lifetime- one very sturdy one (with 2 locks one of which was a dead bolt) in very recent memeory (Cold day, had the kids in the car, left my keys inside). I weigh less than 130 pounds. My special skill? big ass steel toe boots.
As for GURPS it's never been for me; I love generic systems, as I prefer to create all my own setting stuff, but GURPS is too complicated for me- so is 3.0/3.5 for that matter, but that is just a matter of taste.

Quote from: JimBobOz

• Gesture -- Sooner or later, communication without making a sound will be vital to almost any party's survival.[/color]
  

Gurps has a skill for gesturing?  We'd better be talking about ASL or street performance or military hand codes here.  Otherwise... yeah.  "Skill: Wipe Your Ass."

Gesture is a skill for being able to communicate complex ideas through gestures.  It's essentially a primitive version of sign language that's broader but less focused.  So, for instance Gesture would be useful in communicating with cavemen where sign language wouldn't be.  Anyone can communicate with gestures, but the Gesture skill is essential to winning at charades.

Even as this thread rages, I'm doing a merc band with the gesture skill for each one to allow silent communication.

If I want beancounting, I go to the pros from Dover:
Harnmaster annd Millenium´s End.

I just don´t see anything adding to the experience in what JimBob cited.