Quote from: Zalman;1116875I'm still scratching my head as to why anyone thought D&D needed to include a "default" setting at all. (And of course using any previously existing setting is going to invoke shoehorning and/or gutting, given the wealth of legacy material from/for a variety of settings).

5e D&D doesn't have a default setting. Faerun is mentioned as an example a few times in the PHB and DMG, and the examples of fantasy names for humans in the PHB are from Forgotten Realms cultures, but other than that, there really isn't any default setting material in the core (there are some lists of gods in Appendix B of the PHB, but those include Norse, Celtic, Greek and Egyptian pantheons, as well as the gods from Greyhawk, Dragonlance and Eberron). The DMG has a lot of material on creating your own setting though. Faerun shows up as the setting of the starter box campaign, and for most of the published adventures, but adventures have to have some setting.

Quote from: tenbones;1116885You know... just go Greybox and you're Faerun is great.

It's all downhill from there. So pick the spot that is your jam and rock on.

There's some good stuff in some of the really early supplements too. The Savage Frontier (FR5) is a really good book for instance, with just the right amount of detail.

Quote from: Shasarak;1116880(snip) Darksun always seemed more like one big gimmick to mash Wilderness Survival Guide together with the Psionics Handbook.

One of Dark Sun's initial code names was War World to try and give the Battlesystem rules a boost. But the Psionics Handbook did play a role in its design and development according to the Bone, Stone, & Obsidian podcast interview with Tim Brown. (The WSG was out-of-print at that point.)

Quote from: tenbones;1116885You know... just go Greybox and you're Faerun is great.

It's all downhill from there. So pick the spot that is your jam and rock on.

One of my favourite personal heresies is that I love the 4E version of the Realms because it upset everything enough that I feel much better about putting my own stamp on the Realms that I did before. (My primary heresy is that 4E remains my favourite RPG.) It's the new Grey Box for me - even if it is no longer new. Oh, and the Neverwinter Campaign Setting is simply superb.

Quote from: SHARK;1116913Greetings!

You know, I remember the Forgotten Realms Grey Box very well, and quite fondly. I think in design and scope, at that point, it certainly was a worthy companion to go along with Greyhawk. I think perhaps, merely a good hardcover book or two beyond that Grey Box would have been fine. Had they kept it at that, Forgotten Realms would be a sort of "evergreen" campaign setting. Simply awesome.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

I would add a few products to that including, inter alia, the Faiths & Avatars trilogy, FR1 Waterdeep & The North, FR5 The Savage Frontier, Lost Empires of Faerun, and the Volo's Guides to the Dalelands, the North, and the Sword Coast.

Quote from: Blankman;1116915There's some good stuff in some of the really early supplements too. The Savage Frontier (FR5) is a really good book for instance, with just the right amount of detail.

Yep, Paul Jaquays did his usual great work with FR5. I used a lot of his material in my 4E Neverwinter campaign.

Quote from: Scrivener of Doom;1116930One of Dark Sun's initial code names was War World to try and give the Battlesystem rules a boost. But the Psionics Handbook did play a role in its design and development according to the Bone, Stone, & Obsidian podcast interview with Tim Brown. (The WSG was out-of-print at that point.).

Yeah, Psionics was one of the key features they wanted to emphasize when they began work on what eventually became Dark Sun, IIRC. They wanted a setting where they could showcase those new abilities and Troy Denning was working on something when he ran into Brom (one of the greatest D&D/Fantasy illustrators ever) who was doing this awesome painting of what eventually became the character Neeva. So Troy Denning roped him into the project (ended up creating a character based on the painting and working her into the story) and it all flowed from there.



Ima have to check this out when I have the chance. This is the same podcast I mentioned in my last post, where they interviewed Troy Denning. Wasn't sure where it was back then, but this link helped me find them. Gonna post them below, cuz these are must-listen for any Dark Sun aficionados:

Troy Denning Interview Part 1
Troy Denning Interview Part 2

Quote from: Steven Mitchell;1116903Yes.  And if I ran FR for 5E, that's how I'd do it.  Heck, when I ran FR for Fantasy Hero, that's mostly how I did it.  

There comes a point in a settings life, if too much crap builds up on top of it, where it starts to affect enjoyment of the original.  Not that it can't be done, but it requires an effort of will to shove aside the crap from your mind while getting back into the good stuff.  It's why I can no longer enjoy the original Star Wars trilogy--too much effort.

I've been very carefully avoiding all FR stuff for several years now in the hope that one day I'll be able to run the Grey box again.

Quote from: SHARK;1116913Greetings!

You know, I remember the Forgotten Realms Grey Box very well, and quite fondly. I think in design and scope, at that point, it certainly was a worthy companion to go along with Greyhawk. I think perhaps, merely a good hardcover book or two beyond that Grey Box would have been fine. Had they kept it at that, Forgotten Realms would be a sort of "evergreen" campaign setting. Simply awesome.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

To be perfectly honest... Greybox + their regional Gazetteers circa up to 2e were pretty much perfect. Most of the stuff tacked on from 3e onward was mostly system-service *at best*, or a re-hash for those new to the setting.

I think some of the best stuff ever written for D&D in terms of how it should work in a kitchen-sink setting, stuff that really resonated with me (and continues to until today) was established during this era. Faiths and Avatars/Powers and Pantheon are great examples that pushed the Cleric class into Deity-specific orders with wonderful write-ups for Clerics, layfolk AND militant Paladin orders (if such existed).

The addition of Kara-Tur, Al-Qadim to the Realms gave GM's tons of options. I'd argue Kara-Tur (the boxset) and Al-Qadim were the equal to the Greybox in terms of design and execution.

I've used the Greybox for my Savage Worlds games, and it is pretty fantastic. I intend to dive back in once the SWADE Fantasy book drops. I don't care much for the 5e conception of the Realms for all the reasons you both (and others) have cited. It's become too much of a freakshow with little attempt at considering the conceits of the setting beyond the pet-elements of the given writer at the time.

There is a place for the Freakshow(tm) - it's called Spelljammer. And there is another setting that needs some love.

Am I the only one that loves how the "Why Faerun?" topic has wandered into so many other worlds (e.g., Eberron, Dark Sun, etc.)? If this lasts long enough, I'm hoping to get some good stuff on Birthright.

Quote from: Scrivener of Doom;1116930One of Dark Sun's initial code names was War World to try and give the Battlesystem rules a boost. But the Psionics Handbook did play a role in its design and development according to the Bone, Stone, & Obsidian podcast interview with Tim Brown. (The WSG was out-of-print at that point.)

I would have imagined that Darksun is the worst place to boost Battlesystem.  When it is hard to keep an individual alive how are you going to have armies marching around enough to justify its use.

Just to make HappyDaze...happy..I would suggest Birthright as the Battlesystem system.

Quote from: tenbones;1116938I think some of the best stuff ever written for D&D in terms of how it should work in a kitchen-sink setting, stuff that really resonated with me (and continues to until today) was established during this era. Faiths and Avatars/Powers and Pantheon are great examples that pushed the Cleric class into Deity-specific orders with wonderful write-ups for Clerics, layfolk AND militant Paladin orders (if such existed).

While I tend to agree with Pundit that D&D does polytheism wrong (as covered in one of his videos), I have to agree that this era saw a refinement of how religions were portrayed in D&D that led to a lot of customization of the cleric class and adaptation of its abilities to fit specific faiths and religious organizations that added a lot of flavor to the game. After a certain point every single cleric in my game had a custom setup and had to be tailor made to meet their faith's specifications.

Quote from: tenbones;1116938There is a place for the Freakshow(tm) - it's called Spelljammer. And there is another setting that needs some love.

Or Planescape

Or RIFTS... oh, wait! Wrong system! :confused:

Quote from: HappyDaze;1116943Am I the only one that loves how the "Why Faerun?" topic has wandered into so many other worlds (e.g., Eberron, Dark Sun, etc.)? If this lasts long enough, I'm hoping to get some good stuff on Birthright.

I never got around checking out Birthright

But yeah, I love how discussions about FR always tend to devolve into talk about other settings (most of which are better than FR ).

Quote from: HappyDaze;1116943Am I the only one that loves how the "Why Faerun?" topic has wandered into so many other worlds (e.g., Eberron, Dark Sun, etc.)? If this lasts long enough, I'm hoping to get some good stuff on Birthright.

Well, given the nature of the topic, it does invite comparisons to alternatives.

Quote from: Blankman;1116914Faerun shows up as the setting of the starter box campaign, and for most of the published adventures, but adventures have to have some setting.

Do they? I don't recall most published modules of the 1e era including a setting, or even elements of a setting. Could be I'm getting senile I guess. Either way, we always dropped modules into our own settings anyway.

Quote from: VisionStorm;1116963But yeah, I love how discussions about FR always tend to devolve into talk about other settings (most of which are better than FR ).

Is Darksun better for playing Desert Survival then Forgotten Realms?  Well Darksun is Desert Survival 24/7 and on the other hand the Realms has the Anauroch Desert.  So do you want to be Camel riding Nomads fighting the Zhents or do you want to be Dune Beetle riding Psionic Half giants fighting cannibal halflings?

Quote from: Shasarak;1116971Is Darksun better for playing Desert Survival then Forgotten Realms?  Well Darksun is Desert Survival 24/7 and on the other hand the Realms has the Anauroch Desert.  So do you want to be Camel riding Nomads fighting the Zhents or do you want to be Dune Beetle riding Psionic Half giants fighting cannibal halflings?

Presumably if running Dark Sun you'd hack the rules into something more appropriate for the setting.

I wouldn't be running Dark Sun with vanilla 5e - no way.

I'd probably adapt something from the journey rules in Adventures in Middle Earth - I'd ban a lot of spells, there's be rules for defiling etc.

I'd like to thank people who linked to the Bone, Stone and Obsidian podcasts. The interviews with the creators were very interesting.

Quote from: TJS;1116979Presumably if running Dark Sun you'd hack the rules into something more appropriate for the setting.

I wouldn't be running Dark Sun with vanilla 5e - no way.

I'd probably adapt something from the journey rules in Adventures in Middle Earth - I'd ban a lot of spells, there's be rules for defiling etc.

Which is one reason why the Realms is a better setting then Darksun, you need less niche rules.

Quote from: Shasarak;1116984Which is one reason why the Realms is a better setting then Darksun, you need less niche rules.

If by 'better' you mean more suitable for default D&D then sure.

Dark Sun really does need it's own system.