Quote from: Shasarak;1116783It pushes the idea that Good is actually bad and Evil Vampires are actually good and otherwise its all shades of grey.

No, it does not. It says that some people do horrible things to try to achieve good ends (like trying to purge lycanthropes in a crusade and inflicting some collateral damage on shifter populations) and that an evil vampire king might support a peace treaty to give his ancestral lands time to recover from a war/famine/rebellion that devastated his base. The shades of gray are presented as a bit more rational than you suggest.

Yes, "Good is evil, Neutrality is good, Evil is cool" is Dragonlance's theme.

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee;1116803For instance the Development of Darksun Mostly robbed it of any mystery.

Not just that, but to me it just felt completely bland and meh.

I have often said that Dark Sun is the GREATEST setting in the ENTIRE history of D&D (bar NONE), but every time I've said that I'm mostly referring to the earlier material. After a certain point (don't remember which supplement) the material just started to feel tired and unimaginative--even adding new playable races that just felt arbitrary, and didn't even show up in the first novel series, by Troy Denning (never read the one after the first, so don't know about that one).

Several months ago I ran into a podcast interviewing Troy Denning, where they discussed a LOT of Dark Sun and he mentioned that TSR had taken him out of Dark Sun during that time, so all of that later material was developed by someone else. From how he talked about it, he didn't seem that impressed with most of it either, and most (if not all) of it was developed without consulting him, so it didn't follow the things he would've done with the setting. Pretty depressing stuff, but at least I felt vindicated knowing that I had been right in feeling like that later stuff wasn't true canon, since the original creator hadn't been involved.

Quote from: VisionStorm;1116809Not just that, but to me it just felt completely bland and meh.

I have often said that Dark Sun is the GREATEST setting in the ENTIRE history of D&D (bar NONE), but every time I've said that I'm mostly referring to the earlier material. After a certain point (don't remember which supplement) the material just started to feel tired and unimaginative--even adding new playable races that just felt arbitrary, and didn't even show up in the first novel series, by Troy Denning (never read the one after the first, so don't know about that one).

Several months ago I ran into a podcast interviewing Troy Denning, where they discussed a LOT of Dark Sun and he mentioned that TSR had taken him out of Dark Sun during that time, so all of that later material was developed by someone else. From how he talked about it, he didn't seem that impressed with most of it either, and most (if not all) of it was developed without consulting him, so it didn't follow the things he would've done with the setting. Pretty depressing stuff, but at least I felt vindicated knowing that I had been right in feeling like that later stuff wasn't true canon, since the original creator hadn't been involved.

Yep. When I run Dark Sun, I use the 4e tactic of setting the timeline just after Kalak's death, and then run things from there, completely ignoring the later metaplot, especially the Cerulean Storm event. I pilfer bits of the backstory, but leave more than I take.

I could happily disparage FR, but I'm a Rifts fan so that would seem hypocritical.

FR makes sense as the 5e core because of the economic power of the FR brand, and its not realistic to expect a company to not chase the biggest pile of dollars.  

Personally, I'd prefer if new editions got new settings, but regurgitation of nostalgia makes more money.

Quote from: Ratman_tf;1116820Yep. When I run Dark Sun, I use the 4e tactic of setting the timeline just after Kalak's death, and then run things from there, completely ignoring the later metaplot, especially the Cerulean Storm event. I pilfer bits of the backstory, but leave more than I take.

Same. Granted I don't play Dark Sun as much as I'd wish, but every time I've had the chance to run a campaign I start either soon after Kalak's death and Tyr becoming a free city, or right around the time it happened and people are shouting in the streets "Kalak is dead! KALAK IS DEAD!" and the chaos starts to boil in the streets of Tyr as the implications of the Sorcerer-King's death start to set in and slaves start to riot.

Then I ignore almost everything that comes after in the novels, especially the killing of several of the other Sorcerer-Kings (which technically happens a few years later anyways), etc. The Dragon is still coming to claim his slave levy, though, cuz that creates tension and highlights the brutality of the world.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1116824I could happily disparage FR, but I'm a Rifts fan so that would seem hypocritical.

Except that RIFTS is a cool setting with its own flavor and original stuff, and every single one of its failings is due to the system and inconsistent power levels between supplements (also a system issue), rather than the world itself. While FR's failings are almost entirely its own (not that D&D is perfect, but system and setting are separate products).

I think FR now makes a great default setting for 5E.  Giving that WotC has demonstrated that they are almost entirely imaginatively bankrupt, I don't see why we would welcome them trashing other settings.  Think of FR as a quarantine zone.

Quote from: Steven Mitchell;1116839I think FR now makes a great default setting for 5E.  Giving that WotC has demonstrated that they are almost entirely imaginatively bankrupt, I don't see why we would welcome them trashing other settings.  Think of FR as a quarantine zone.

  On the other hand, if current trends continue, Dragonlance would be a perfect fit for 6E--there's an anti-institutional, relativist, 'power to the marginalized and the educated elite' subtext to it that's been present from the beginning, and that I picked up on 20 years ago.

Quote from: Armchair Gamer;1116840On the other hand, if current trends continue, Dragonlance would be a perfect fit for 6E--there's an anti-institutional, relativist, 'power to the marginalized and the educated elite' subtext to it that's been present from the beginning, and that I picked up on 20 years ago.

Ha!  Since DL is the only setting that I can see arguably replacing FR as "most immune to being trashed because previous trashing has already done its worst," I'm not seeing a problem with that plan, either.  

Now, if they wanted to be really stupid, they'd make Planescape the default.  Making it the default is exactly the kind of thing that a college sophomore mentality could talk one into being a good idea.

I'm still scratching my head as to why anyone thought D&D needed to include a "default" setting at all. (And of course using any previously existing setting is going to invoke shoehorning and/or gutting, given the wealth of legacy material from/for a variety of settings).

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee;1116803As a person who hates how Static Star Wars has become, Il say there is a counterbalance to this.

A setting can be "Just-Right" and developing it can simply make it worse. You can always play in older material but its less likely to receive support.

You have to answer some mysteries, thats why you have adventures: go into the unknown and meet new people so that you can kill them and take their stuff.

I remember one developer who talked about never answering one mystery without giving two more.

QuoteFor instance the Development of Darksun Mostly robbed it of any mystery.

Darksun always seemed more like one big gimmick to mash Wilderness Survival Guide together with the Psionics Handbook.

Quote from: Zalman;1116875I'm still scratching my head as to why anyone thought D&D needed to include a "default" setting at all. (And of course using any previously existing setting is going to invoke shoehorning and/or gutting, given the wealth of legacy material from/for a variety of settings).

The most popular setting is still homebrew so does that answer your question?

You know... just go Greybox and you're Faerun is great.

It's all downhill from there. So pick the spot that is your jam and rock on.

Quote from: tenbones;1116885You know... just go Greybox and you're Faerun is great.

It's all downhill from there. So pick the spot that is your jam and rock on.

Yes.  And if I ran FR for 5E, that's how I'd do it.  Heck, when I ran FR for Fantasy Hero, that's mostly how I did it.  

There comes a point in a settings life, if too much crap builds up on top of it, where it starts to affect enjoyment of the original.  Not that it can't be done, but it requires an effort of will to shove aside the crap from your mind while getting back into the good stuff.  It's why I can no longer enjoy the original Star Wars trilogy--too much effort.

I've been very carefully avoiding all FR stuff for several years now in the hope that one day I'll be able to run the Grey box again.

Quote from: tenbones;1116885You know... just go Greybox and you're Faerun is great.

It's all downhill from there. So pick the spot that is your jam and rock on.

Greetings!

You know, I remember the Forgotten Realms Grey Box very well, and quite fondly. I think in design and scope, at that point, it certainly was a worthy companion to go along with Greyhawk. I think perhaps, merely a good hardcover book or two beyond that Grey Box would have been fine. Had they kept it at that, Forgotten Realms would be a sort of "evergreen" campaign setting. Simply awesome.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK