Quote from: RPGPundit;1122440No. The Realms were seriously fucked up by 2e already.

2e was the high point of the Realms, peaking with the release of the 3e Campaign book.  You could make the argument that it slowly got strangled under the control of WotC and certainly current day Realms is nowhere near what it was but understandable given the current state of the DnD department.

Quote from: sureshot;1122247They can express any opinion they want. Yet don't complain about a setting having too many gods then when the rpg publisher listens to the feedback reduces the amount of gods. Then complain again that too many were removed. Too many FR fans want it both ways complain about the flaws of FR while not wanting anything to change. Other rpg companies fanbase have the same problem yet the D&D fandom are extra special in that regard. I'm a not a fan everything Wotc did with 4E FR I hated the sheer number of gods in FR many redundant imo. We have the god of War, The goddess of tactical war, the god of chaos of war. We don't need three different gods for the same thing imo.

Don't forget the gods of nature, of which we have:

• Silvanus (all-father of nature)
• Mielikki (autumn, druids, dryads, forests, forest creatures, and rangers.)
• Lurue (Queen of Talking Beasts, was a chaotic good archfey who was often worshiped as a goddess of intelligent and talking beasts. She was worshiped by many unicorns, pegasi, and other intelligent non-humanoid creatures)
• Rillifane (was the elven god of protection of woodlands and the guardian of the harmony of nature.)
• Eldath (who acted as the guardian of groves and watersheds, her presence was felt wherever there was calm.)

Like.... seriously?

I like open settings with unlimited numbers of deities, I don't see that as a problem. Bugs me more when they have to worship Mielikki in Unther because there's no local nature deity (I just made that up, FR fans).

Quote from: Shasarak;11224722e was the high point of the Realms, peaking with the release of the 3e Campaign book.  You could make the argument that it slowly got strangled under the control of WotC and certainly current day Realms is nowhere near what it was but understandable given the current state of the DnD department.

They lost me with the Avatar trilogy.

Quote from: sureshot;1122247They can express any opinion they want. Yet don't complain about a setting having too many gods then when the rpg publisher listens to the feedback reduces the amount of gods. Then complain again that too many were removed. Too many FR fans want it both ways complain about the flaws of FR while not wanting anything to change. Other rpg companies fanbase have the same problem yet the D&D fandom are extra special in that regard. I'm a not a fan everything Wotc did with 4E FR I hated the sheer number of gods in FR many redundant imo. We have the god of War, The goddess of tactical war, the god of chaos of war. We don't need three different gods for the same thing imo.

FR fans aren't a monolith. You can have a cacophony of contradictory opinions coming from the same general community on the internet (on almost any topic), but that doesn't make every individual member of that community responsible for the opinions of others. It's not like they have control over it--online communication is inherently chaotic, with people from all over the world pitching in their ideas (as idiotic as they might sometimes be). They also have no control over what conclusions a company's marketing team arrives at or what decisions they ultimately make when opting to make sweeping changes to their product. Ultimately it's up to the marketing team to parse through the feedback and try their best to interpret it, but the community has no control over what others post and there's no org of "FR Fans" that can get together and decide what can be posted or not regarding the topic. And even if there was, such an org would ultimately operate in an authoritarian manner squashing dissenting voices in order to promote their own vision of what FR should be.

I also partly disagree about redundant gods, although I can see how keeping track of many gods dealing with similar portfolios might seem redundant or cumbersome to some people. But that is pretty much the way that gods operated in real life polytheistic pagan pantheons. The Greek, for example, had Ares the God of War, but also Athena as a goddess of tactical warfare (and also Wisdom), Nike Goddess of Victory, and a whole bunch of other gods and minor deities related to conflict (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_war_deities#Greek_mythology).

The problem is that D&D treats polytheistic practices more like henotheism (worship of one single god out of several) with specialized priesthoods dedicated to that single god, which is not quite how pagan polytheism worked in most cultures in real life, which tended to worship all gods more or less equally and just invoke specific ones on a case by case basis, or some gods might be favored in specific regions, etc. But "redundant" gods with overlapping or even contradictory (or oddly paired) traits are pretty much as staple of real life polytheistic paganism. Pundit covered a lot of this in a video a while back:

[video=youtube;Eb8CBXBciyc]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eb8CBXBciyc&t=935s[/youtube]

Quote from: Pat;1122498They lost me with the Avatar trilogy.

The biggest problem with the Avatar trilogy was that it depicted most of the deities as morons and Ao as a trigger happy idiot.

Quote from: Ghostmaker;1122513The biggest problem with the Avatar trilogy was that it depicted most of the deities as morons and Ao as a trigger happy idiot.

That strikes as one of the more minor problems. A much bigger one is how all the gods, with the possible exception of Torm, are unambiguously presented as petty self-centered hedonists, who don't give the slightest fuck about their worshipers, and abusively neglect them. Which would have made sense if the gods were treated as fearsome beings, who must be propitiated by mortals who fear their wrath, or desire a boon. Except the metatext of the story still treats the "good" and "neutral" gods from a Christian perspective, as if they're innately deserving of love and worship, despite their appalling behavior. And that's not even touching the monstrous implications of the Wall of the Faithless.

Or portraying Elminster as catastrophically criminally negligent and uncaring, or Storm Silverhand as a murderous psycho who needs to be put down. Or Midnight's complete lack of anything even coming close to resembling a personality. The only sympathetic character in the entire trilogy was the supposed villain, Cyric.

Quote from: Pat;1122514That strikes as one of the more minor problems. A much bigger one is how all the gods, with the possible exception of Torm, are unambiguously presented as petty self-centered hedonists, who don't give the slightest fuck about their worshipers, and abusively neglect them. Which would have made sense if the gods were treated as fearsome beings, who must be propitiated by mortals who fear their wrath, or desire a boon. Except the metatext of the story still treats the "good" and "neutral" gods from a Christian perspective, as if they're innately deserving of love and worship, despite their appalling behavior. And that's not even touching the monstrous implications of the Wall of the Faithless.

That was the exact point of the Avatar Trilogy, that Gods have to start to care about their Worshipers.

But I do admit the Wall of the Faithless is pretty pretty cool.

Quote from: Shasarak;1122515That was the exact point of the Avatar Trilogy, that Gods have to start to care about their Worshipers.

But I do admit the Wall of the Faithless is pretty pretty cool.

That could have been the intended point, who knows? But the actual point expressed in the trilogy is that the gods are bratty children, who were given a timeout by Dad (Ao) until they did their chores (picking up their worshipers on the Fugue Plain). That doesn't mean the spoiled brats want to do their chores (care about their worshipers), it just means they were forced to do so under threat of punishment (losing their godhoods), and resented the fuck out of it (and probably their worshipers, too). Except it's worse than that, because the gods, even the supposedly good ones, literally abandoned their worshipers on the Fugue Plain for millennia. And Ao punished them by sending the gods to Faerun, which caused planet-wide catastrophes and untold deaths (way to go godDad).

And if any mortal says fuck this, I'm not worshiping any of these psychotic little brats, what happens? When the mortal dies, they're literally mortared into a wall, where they're stuck, conscious but helpless, until the end of time.

Quote from: Pat;1122516That could have been the intended point, who knows? But the actual point expressed in the trilogy is that the gods are bratty children, who were given a timeout by Dad (Ao) until they did their chores (picking up their worshipers on the Fugue Plain). That doesn't mean the spoiled brats want to do their chores (care about their worshipers), it just means they were forced to do so under threat of punishment (losing their godhoods), and resented the fuck out of it (and probably their worshipers, too). Except it's worse than that, because the gods, even the supposedly good ones, literally abandoned their worshipers on the Fugue Plain for millennia. And Ao punished them by sending the gods to Faerun, which caused planet-wide catastrophes and untold deaths (way to go godDad).

I dont remember worshipers being abandoned for millennia, that seems unlikely to be true considering that Demons and Devils would hardly wait around for a thousand years before coming in to steal souls away.

You could certainly complain about Ao causing death and destruction but there is no evidence that he cares to interfere directly on behalf of individuals unless they are high level named NPCs that have helped to kill off other Gods.  To me it is like being mad at Krakatoa for erupting or the Chicxulub asteroid for hitting the Earth, more of a force of Nature then anything to be negotiated with.

QuoteAnd if any mortal says fuck this, I'm not worshiping any of these psychotic little brats, what happens? When the mortal dies, they're literally mortared into a wall, where they're stuck, conscious but helpless, until the end of time.

You literally have a million different psychotic little brats to follow of every different flavour, colour and creed and you could not even pick one?  You literally deserve to be mortared into a wall with all of the other dumb as a rock people.  Even the people that make a Faustian bargin with a Devil get themselves a better deal then an Atheist.

Quote from: Shasarak;1122527I dont remember worshipers being abandoned for millennia, that seems unlikely to be true considering that Demons and Devils would hardly wait around for a thousand years before coming in to steal souls away.

Which makes it even more abominable.

Quote from: Shasarak;1122527You could certainly complain about Ao causing death and destruction but there is no evidence that he cares to interfere directly on behalf of individuals unless they are high level named NPCs that have helped to kill off other Gods.  To me it is like being mad at Krakatoa for erupting or the Chicxulub asteroid for hitting the Earth, more of a force of Nature then anything to be negotiated with.

Except volcanoes and bollides aren't thinking beings that take voluntary action. There's a difference between an accident, and deliberate genocide.

Quote from: Shasarak;1122527You literally have a million different psychotic little brats to follow of every different flavour, colour and creed and you could not even pick one?  You literally deserve to be mortared into a wall with all of the other dumb as a rock people.  Even the people that make a Faustian bargin with a Devil get themselves a better deal then an Atheist.

What does any of this have to do with atheism? This is Faerun, gods are objectively real. This is maltheism, pure and simple. Gods who are monstrous and wicked, and who must be appeased, or you'll be tortured forever. Which could be quite fun, in a story or a campaign setting (see Valus, for instance). Except they wrapped that up with the sugary coating of the New Testament god is good and loving and perfect, and they did that at the authorial level. Which takes away from the fun, because it's basically like some creep loudly proclaiming on some internet forum that is great.

Quote from: Pat;1122533Which takes away from the fun, because it's basically like some creep loudly proclaiming on some internet forum that is great.

Ao did nothing wrong!!!

Quote from: Pat;1122533Which makes it even more abominable.

It would be abominable if it had happened.

QuoteExcept volcanoes and bollides aren't thinking beings that take voluntary action. There's a difference between an accident, and deliberate genocide.

What is the difference from the perspective of a person caught up in the catastrophe?  You can rage against the machinery of your destruction but neither really cares what happens to you.

QuoteWhat does any of this have to do with atheism? This is Faerun, gods are objectively real. This is maltheism, pure and simple. Gods who are monstrous and wicked, and who must be appeased, or you'll be tortured forever. Which could be quite fun, in a story or a campaign setting (see Valus, for instance). Except they wrapped that up with the sugary coating of the New Testament god is good and loving and perfect, and they did that at the authorial level. Which takes away from the fun, because it's basically like some creep loudly proclaiming on some internet forum that is great.

Sure we can use which ever descriptive Noun you like.  Realistically what fraction of a percent of the population are there going to be of these people in your average Realms game?  When these Maltheists are going through their life getting told that they are going to end up in the Wall of the Faithless for being Faithless and then they die and end up in the Wall of the Faithless is it inherently unfair?  When plane traveling adventurers go past the Wall and see Old Joe rotting away in the wall as an object lesson for everyone back on the Prime, would any of them be surprised?  I doubt it.

In any case for me, I look at the whole continuum of punishments that a soul can receive after death and the Wall of the Faithless would not rank in the top ten.  How many levels of Hell, the Abyss and Carceri are much much worse.

Quote from: Shasarak;1122541Sure we can use which ever descriptive Noun you like.  Realistically what fraction of a percent of the population are there going to be of these people in your average Realms game?  When these Maltheists are going through their life getting told that they are going to end up in the Wall of the Faithless for being Faithless and then they die and end up in the Wall of the Faithless is it inherently unfair?  When plane traveling adventurers go past the Wall and see Old Joe rotting away in the wall as an object lesson for everyone back on the Prime, would any of them be surprised?  I doubt it.

In any case for me, I look at the whole continuum of punishments that a soul can receive after death and the Wall of the Faithless would not rank in the top ten.  How many levels of Hell, the Abyss and Carceri are much much worse.

I was pointing out the clash between the authorial voice and the setting, and you're trying to justify the setting as if some nonsense henotheistic malthestic-in-denial quasi-religion in a game was a real thing, and somehow both fair and just.

Quote from: Pat;1122514...Except the metatext of the story still treats the "good" and "neutral" gods from a Christian perspective, as if they're innately deserving of love and worship, despite their appalling behavior. ...

So not the Christian perspective.

Quote from: Pat;1122514That strikes as one of the more minor problems. A much bigger one is how all the gods, with the possible exception of Torm, are unambiguously presented as petty self-centered hedonists, who don't give the slightest fuck about their worshipers, and abusively neglect them. Which would have made sense if the gods were treated as fearsome beings, who must be propitiated by mortals who fear their wrath, or desire a boon. ...And that's not even touching the monstrous implications of the Wall of the Faithless.
....

Yeah well, It's written by people who do not understand real world religions or how they actually work.

If I could describe it  - it comes across as a hodgepodge religion put together by aethiests/agnostics based upon what they think religions/religious people are like.

I their defense, nowadays forgotten realms is  played by lots of people who do not understand real world religions or how they actually work.

So except for a few outliers posting on the internet; no one really gives a shit.