Quote from: jeff37923Every superhero system I've seen would have a tough time handling Classic Traveller or Twilight:2000 or 2300AD style games. The mechanics just wouldn't run quite right for the hard science fiction or realistic post-apocalypse genres.

That's because Hard/Realistic SF games are part of the "Regular People" branch of gaming, along with Historical, Alt.Historical, Military, and other similar genres, and thus runs into the problem of scaling and consequent coarse granularity we have talked about earlier.

-clash

Quote from: SilverlionIf you can accept the grain, then they work well. I know I wouldn't recommend DC Heroes (despite liking the system) for a fantasy or espionage game--because the constant string of similar attributes for all people (since each point is worth twice as much as the one before it.)

We used DC Heroes for a high-power Belgariad/Celtic-myth style fantasy game. It worked splendidly.

But I would agree that I wouldn't recommend it for all scales of fantasy or all games, really.

But that's not saying anything different than I would be saying about any game that tries to sell itself as generic. I don't see any game as truly "universal" without a lot of tweaking; I wouldn't use GURPS for supers for example.

And as the DC Heroes example suggests, I find scale a more telling barrier in creating a truly universal game than genre.

Actually, DC Heroes actually manages to get a better graps on the scale problem than many other games, mainly due to True Scientific Logarithms. Masterbook uses similar mechanics to reconcile the problem.

I once considered the Underground rule set for a fantasy campaign. Not entirely bad, though for some kind of reason we went for Wasteworld...

In DC Heroes, every human character has a 2 in all stats.  Because of the exponential difference in values, even having a 3 is incredible and rare, because it literally means you're twice as good at something than any normal human, and a 4 is the upper limit of human ability, meaning you're four times as powerful as any human can possibly be, and depending on the stat isn't allowed because it actually exceeds human capability.

A 1 makes you a retard.  

The game is just plain built for high power levels.  We once tried to convert a few of the DC characters to Palladium/Rifts, and Superman came out as having a PS in the range of 48,000.  And this for a game that so many, including myself, tend to see as pretty "high-powered".

It works great for DC-style highpowered supers, but even the game bends it's own rules re: humans when it comes to recreating the more low-powered supers in the Heroes rules.  Batman is technically an alien intelligence . . .

Yeah, DC Heroes definitely never did the trick for me.

RPGPundit

So in the effort of encompassing the vast range of the superhero genre, they don't do anything particulary well specifically.  Isn't that the complaint of most generic systems?

Quote from: RPG PunditI ended up concluding that the best system to emulate the Legion of Superheros was Star Wars D20. So as far as I'm concerned, superhero games can't even effectively emulate superheros, much less anything else.

I remember reading your popularity balances superhero thread.  I sum to be brief, not to attack.  I'm not sure if I agree with it though.  The problem lies somewhere in between genre meets game meets expectations of the players.  As a GM you have a huge responsibility to assist establishing the heros role in the group but also establishing the heroes individual role.  Batman's role in Gotham is much different than Superman's role in Metropolis and both of their roles are different in the Justice League.

Quote from: flyingmiceconsequent coarse granularity
-clash

Here, right here, is where you lost me. What exactly is "consequent coarse granularity"?

Generally stats aren't given as numbers from one to - say 100 or 1000. They more likely are smaller numbers, below 20. With the superhuman scale used in supers games, the difference between one digit and the next is profound. This is the granularity I mentioned. The stats units in supers games are extremely large, sometimes increasing logarithmically or geometrically. When units of measure are large, they have a coarse granularity. When units of measure are small, they exhibit fine granularity.

-clash

Quote from: flyingmiceGenerally stats aren't given as numbers from one to - say 100 or 1000. They more likely are smaller numbers, below 20. With the superhuman scale used in supers games, the difference between one digit and the next is profound. This is the granularity I mentioned. The stats units in supers games are extremely large, sometimes increasing logarithmically or geometrically. When units of measure are large, they have a coarse granularity. When units of measure are small, they exhibit fine granularity.

-clash

Got it, thank you.

Quote from: RPGPunditActually, I did like Hearts & Souls, more than any other Supers game I'd ever seen before.

That said, it would certainly be disqualified as a "generic" system, so it really doesn't apply much to this conversation.

RPGPundit

Ah, indeed. I definitely agree. I find that most attempts to do generic will have a bias to one side of the scale or the other: if it does human scale well (ordinary, skilled people) it has issues with high end people (Gurps 3E being one of the more telling ones, I think its better with 4E slightly).  The same goes true the other way--games that handle high end, often have trouble with lower end stuff.

That is not to say they can't DO it at all, just that there is a certain amount of noticeable and telling loss of fidelity to a genre (and/or scale) it is not biased towards.

I once tried to create a metasystem for building a game from a common set of core elements (think Fudge but without the specialty dice) but didn't get very far at the time. Maybe I'll go back to it someday. (I'd hoped FUZION would have taken off stronger than it did, with its "switches and dials" intact for altering the core system's elements to work.)

I think that having more than one aspect of scale might work. For example if I wanted to do generic--rate traits from 1-x and then add a scale indicator if scale is Alpha then 1-10 is human range with trait 10 being a hair below scale Beta's 1, with some way of making sure challenges in scale work well, and challenges out of scale do also.

Hrms. I'm babbling.  Of course why do we use 1 number for traits? Could two be used to indicate some form of different variable. Say we measure "Combat" ability couldn't we go Combat: 1, 7  and use 1 to map one level of functionality and 7 to map another?  

Ah well.

Quote from: RPGPunditI ended up concluding that the best system to emulate the Legion of Superheros was Star Wars D20.  So as far as I'm concerned, superhero games can't even effectively emulate superheros, much less anything else.

RPGPundit

I'm curious as to why you didn't use Mutants & Masterminds for the Legion game. I've heard you praise M&M often enough, and it seems (from what I've played) to emulate the superhero genre very well.

Thanks!

~Roman

Just read your blog on Supers RPGs here, and now I see why you aren't using M&M. I've also run (though haven't had the joy of playing) T&J, and now I better understand the difficulties you might have with various supers RPGs.

~Roman

Just read your blog on Supers RPGs here, and now I see why you aren't using M&M. I've also run (though haven't had the joy of playing) T&J, and now I better understand the difficulties you might have with various supers RPGs.

~Roman

Thanks for necroing the thread, Roman.  I missed a good one here - don't know why.

I think the scale issue is, as Mr. Slaad mentioned, one of the biggest barriers in trying to make a system truly "generic."

Quote from: SilverlionI think that having more than one aspect of scale might work. For example if I wanted to do generic--rate traits from 1-x and then add a scale indicator if scale is Alpha then 1-10 is human range with trait 10 being a hair below scale Beta's 1, with some way of making sure challenges in scale work well, and challenges out of scale do also.

Hrms. I'm babbling.  Of course why do we use 1 number for traits? Could two be used to indicate some form of different variable. Say we measure "Combat" ability couldn't we go Combat: 1, 7  and use 1 to map one level of functionality and 7 to map another?

This is similar to a concept I toyed with briefly when I was messing aournd with thoughts of rules systems.  It's almost as if you have to have a "dial" indicator (you mentioned FUSION - I do seem to recall that now...) that you set that handles the scale issue.

The question is, is there possibly a way to do this that doesn't increase complexity to a point of useless?  Or will this just have to wait for my computer system/TTRPG hybrid where the computer facilitates the numbers crunching aspect of any rules system thereby reducing the need to worry about that aspect of design?

• Marvel Super-Heroes (FASERIP)
• ABERRANT (WW d10 version)
• Heroes Unlimited 2e (great for lower-leveled supers imho)
• Mutants and Masterminds 2e
• Unisystem (useing Demonic Powers or Primal Powers)
• Dragonball Z RPG (Fuzion)
• Bubblegum Crisis 2032 RPG (Fuzion)
• GURPS 3e / Supers 2e / Wild Cards 2e

I Played/GMed MSH from 1988 to 1998. I Love it. Very simple and easy to use. Advancement can be a pain if you Kill someone on accidient MSH is the easiest Supers rpg to play many characters like Warlock (Technoarch), and other Shapeshifter or Mimicing characters.

Aberrant is another Favorite.
HU2e is good for Low Powered Supers IMHO. But is too ridged in it's Power Catagories for me. Too skill focused for me for a Supers rpg.
M&M2e is very good. A Few powers do suffer problems. Shapeshifting/Mimic/Morph for example. I'm still new to the system is why is lower on my favs. I have not got the system down pat yet.
Unisystem is just good fun period. It still needs a its own Supers rpg though to help us out (Beyond Human)
FUZION = DBZ is actually a very good rpg if you keep the Power Levels below 1,000 and keep it there. Otherwise it gets too High powered blowing up planets. Hell Krillian in Season 1 DBZ could kick Supermans butt. Bubblegum Crisis is good Cyberpunk fun
GURPS. Again another good Lower Powered Supers.