I was looking at my small collection of Palladium books and a recurring thought kept popping up, I could run any of those games with just Heroes Unlimited.  It's one of the reasons I haven't picked up TMNT because HU has the ability to do that as well.  Just as easily I could do the same thing with the Marvel (FASERIP) system.  If a system can do superheroes, it should be able to emulate all genres because of the scope of the superhero genre.

Granularity. Most superhero games have to deal with the huge spread between someone like the Punisher or Batman vs. Superman, Thor etc.
Most other systems, don't have this huge disparity of power levels, even D&D in all its iterations.

Note that I said 'most' systems. MSH certainly doesn't, but Champions comes pretty close. Mutants & Masterminds could emulate something like the usual dungeon crawl, but you'll end up putting powers into delineated paths and would have something in the end that comes pretty close to a normal fantasy game. And fantasy comes pretty close to superheroics, don't even bother with sci-fi or horror...

If you haven't picked up TMNT because you have HU, you are doing yourself a disservice. TMNT is one of the most brilliant games of all time.

To the point, IMO Supers doesn't do gritty well, and gritty doesn't do supers well. The default assumptions are just too different. There's a pont where they overlap - the seriously competent 'normal' - but otherwise they are very different in feel. If the only tool you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail.

-clash

Quote from: flyingmiceIf you haven't picked up TMNT because you have HU, you are doing yourself a disservice. TMNT is one of the most brilliant games of all time.

If I could trade all of my Rifts stuff for a copy, I'd do it in a heartbeat.  I loved the book and the turtles.  I thought, that the mutant animal rules in HU were taken directly from TMNT.  

Quote from: flyingmiceTo the point, IMO Supers doesn't do gritty well, and gritty doesn't do supers well. The default assumptions are just too different. There's a pont where they overlap - the seriously competent 'normal' - but otherwise they are very different in feel. If the only tool you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail.

Could you explain this more.  I'm not quite comprehending why they can't do gritty well.

Quote from: GunslingerIf I could trade all of my Rifts stuff for a copy, I'd do it in a heartbeat.  I loved the book and the turtles.  I thought, that the mutant animal rules in HU were taken directly from TMNT.  

Hmmm - not in my edition of HU. Maybe you have the later edition? Zachary could tell us!

Quote from: GunslingerCould you explain this more.  I'm not quite comprehending why they can't do gritty well.

As Sosthenes said at the same time I was posting, it's a matter of scale. At the scale Supers games have to work on to cover the Bats to Supes thing, regular people are all pretty much alike. Gritty needs differences between regular people to be important. Gritty games work between one and two, while Supers need to work between one and one hundred. On a one to two scale, a 1.2 to 1.5 difference is profound. On a one to one hundred scale, you need a magnifying glass to see it.

-clash

Indeed. It depends a great deal on the superhero game, and its assumptions.

Some are quite capable of being used for many things. But being used for many things and being optimal are different. Just as doing ALL things is not the same as doing many things.

I know someone who used H&S to run a High Fantasy game for example and found it worked well (but that is often similar to supers anyway)


(and yes TMNT is better than HU, HU later editions do have some Mutant Animal stuff, but its not IIRC as good.)


If you can accept the grain, then they work well. I know I wouldn't recommend DC Heroes (despite liking the system) for a fantasy or espionage game--because the constant string of similar attributes for all people (since each point is worth twice as much as the one before it.)

I ended up concluding that the best system to emulate the Legion of Superheros was Star Wars D20.  So as far as I'm concerned, superhero games can't even effectively emulate superheros, much less anything else.

RPGPundit

Quote from: flyingmiceHmmm - not in my edition of HU. Maybe you have the later edition? Zachary could tell us!

-clash

Which version are you talking about?  The mutant animal rules have seen some tweaks, but still remain terribly fun.

BTW, thought it may lack some of the whupass factor of having the original, Palladium's After The Bomb is really TMNT 2e, with much of the same awesomeness of creating Mutant Animals.

Quote from: Zachary The FirstWhich version are you talking about?  The mutant animal rules have seen some tweaks, but still remain terribly fun.

BTW, thought it may lack some of the whupass factor of having the original, Palladium's After The Bomb is really TMNT 2e, with much of the same awesomeness of creating Mutant Animals.

Klaxon informs me I just missed it. It's after the regular mutant section, and I thought it was part of the same thing, so I skipped it. He says it is basically a condensed version of the TMNT rules. Sorry for the confusion!

-clash

Quote from: Zachary The FirstWhich version are you talking about?  The mutant animal rules have seen some tweaks, but still remain terribly fun.

I have the revised and 2nd editions of HU, though it seemed HU had a much smaller amount of animal choices.  I've been tempted to spend the $30 dollars on the After the Bomb bundle but haven't pulled the trigger for the same reason I haven't got TMNT.

Quote from: GunslingerI have the revised and 2nd editions of HU, though it seemed HU had a much smaller amount of animal choices.  I've been tempted to spend the $30 dollars on the After the Bomb bundle but haven't pulled the trigger for the same reason I haven't got TMNT.

While the after the bomb bundle is very sweet. You should get the After the Bomb 2nd edition. Which is a stand alone game. It has a lot more animals and stuff for the animals. It is a fantastic book IMHO.

Quote from: RPGPunditI ended up concluding that the best system to emulate the Legion of Superheros was Star Wars D20.  So as far as I'm concerned, superhero games can't even effectively emulate superheros, much less anything else.

RPGPundit

You wound me! And I thought you liked H&S *sniffles*

That being said Legion of Superheroes is not "typical" superheroes.
 it misses a lot of the genre aspects of regular supers, while magnifying others.missed the "Dealing with normal life" in a lot of series. (Still good stories for some runs. Just "not exactly the core of the genre")

Supers is a tricky genre.  Heroes Unlimited is actually a pretty good take on it.  V&V 2 is the best it's ever been done, but Champions did a few things better before it got bogged down with too much supplemental material.  I've always wanted to figure out a Rolemaster supers varient, but I think I'd have to re-write the critical hit tables a fair bit.

The blast of flame scorches all the skin off his body in an unimaginably painful burst of charcoal flakes.

just wouldn't fit as well as

The blast of flames lifts him off the ground and hurls him through the air.  His costume and face are sooty for the next three pannels.

Quote from: SilverlionYou wound me! And I thought you liked H&S *sniffles*

That being said Legion of Superheroes is not "typical" superheroes.
 it misses a lot of the genre aspects of regular supers, while magnifying others.missed the "Dealing with normal life" in a lot of series. (Still good stories for some runs. Just "not exactly the core of the genre")

Actually, I did like Hearts & Souls, more than any other Supers game I'd ever seen before.

That said, it would certainly be disqualified as a "generic" system, so it really doesn't apply much to this conversation.

RPGPundit

Every superhero system I've seen would have a tough time handling Classic Traveller or Twilight:2000 or 2300AD style games. The mechanics just wouldn't run quite right for the hard science fiction or realistic post-apocalypse genres.