Quote from: SonTodoGato on August 31, 2021, 01:10:41 PM

I agree. Even dwarves and elves are too much for me. I'd rather keep them as supernatural creatures alongside fairies or angels. Tieflings, aasimar, furries, etc. are all debasing the flavor. I don't mind it, though, if sometimes the rules are not too impartial; it's okay to give the players some leeway for the sake of fun or the story every now and then (inb4 woke storygamer, you know what I meant)

I agree with this, a lot of the time. Other times, all that shit is fine. I think the important things to recognize are:

1) These are preferences. There's nothing wrong with a human-centric world a la Conan, or even a purely human world with no other races even lurking in the shadows. There's also nothing wrong with a kitchen sink world, where everything under the sun and then some exists. It's vanilla vs. chocolate, or long hair vs. short, not 1+1 = 2 vs. 1+1 = 3.

2) Some things don't fit in some worlds. Sometimes the DM has a clear vision and wants to stick with it, and thus some things are out of bounds. Sometimes it's anything goes. Sometimes the DM is willing to allow the players to partially shape the world by their choices, and the decision they make during character creation will shape the nature of the world, but once that's established it becomes fixed. It's also useful to recognize that deciding what works and what doesn't in the context of a world isn't a strictly rational or explicable process. Sometimes the DM will say no, and not be able to explain why. That doesn't mean whatever the player wants should be allowed. It just means it's more art than science.

Quote from: Chris24601 on August 31, 2021, 01:31:16 PM

Quote from: King Tyranno on August 31, 2021, 12:50:40 PM

Quote from: Chris24601 on August 31, 2021, 12:48:09 PM


If your fantasy world doesn't have humans, dwarves, elves and hobbits as playable races you're doing it wrong. According to them if you have have a world where, because of its history humans, tieflings and dragonborn are the dominant races and elves and dwarves are reclusive forest/underground spirit-folk who want nothing to do with mortals and halflings don't exist because you don't want your world to be a Tolkien rip-off... well, that's Wokists trying to destroy the hobby.

How DARE you have race options that didn't appear as members of the Fellowship of the Ring (or human only if you're hardcore)! How DARE you use anything other random dice rolls for your ability scores! How DARE you not follow the "Zero-to-Hero" model where low level PCs can die at the drop of the hat and you cycle through them like changes of clothing until you get one lucky enough to survive!

This but unironically.

I rest my case. The reason people hate the OSR is exactly because assholes like this are the main ones trying to push it; people who insult any player who likes anything other than their OneTrueWay. In terms of OSR people I've met in real life, every last one of them had this sort of mentality... and yet they can't seem to understand why no one is interested in playing with them.

YOU and those like you are the reason I hold the OSR in contempt and why you'll NEVER actually beat the Wokists... because you place your own gaming preferences ahead of the practical interests of finding common ground with all the non-woke gamers who would otherwise agree with you on 90+% of the problems in gaming.

No one is stopping you from playing Barney the Dinosaur if so you wish... we just think it's not a good way to play. OSR isn't just Sword & sorcery, humans-only, though.

I don't see how we're expected to "beat" the wokists, whatever that is. Are we supposed to compromise and start including genasis in our games so that we don't scare away people who are new to the hobby and have been introduced by the wokes? This is exactly what we want to avoid.

Quote from: SonTodoGato on August 31, 2021, 01:36:58 PM
No one is stopping you from playing Barney the Dinosaur if so you wish... we just think it's not a good way to play. OSR isn't just Sword & sorcery, humans-only, though.

I don't see how we're expected to "beat" the wokists, whatever that is. Are we supposed to compromise and start including genasis in our games so that we don't scare away people who are new to the hobby and have been introduced by the wokes? This is exactly what we want to avoid.

IMHO, the purpose of the OSR was never to beat the Wokoso's.

It was simply about getting back to the style of play D&D in the form of 3 and 4e was moving away from.


That it has largely been immune to SJW infiltration is due to several factors.

1: While some may complain about the different "factions" within the OSR - this is a feature, not a bug. The balkanized nature of the OSR community makes it very difficult for the SJW's to infiltrate, organize, and gain control of the narrative of what the OSR is all about.

Even on RPG forums that are dismissive of the OSR and try to slander it, there are enough quality OSR designers out there that they have been unable to get people to throw away the baby with the bathwater.


2: On the: "Putting gaming preferences ahead of the practical interests of finding common ground." Again,  Feature not bug!

The utter refusal to bow to narrative of 'player-entitlement' with "My table, my rules!" is foundational to keeping the freaks and creeps out of the OSR.

There is a BIG push that if a race/power is available in a "core" rulebook that; It. Must. Be. Allowed. The OSR popping a big middle finger to that entire notion is an essential element in keeping the OSR furry free.


3: ONE TRUE WAYISM: "If you don't play their way, you're doing it wrong." Yes, even this: Feature, not bug.

The BrOSR, OD&D Cultists, B/X adherents, Retro clones "that do it better", Jeffro vs. Pundit infighting...

These are all essential gatekeeping elements that keep the SJW freaks out!

When most in the OSR hear: "If you are not doing X like y according to AD&D pg.7. You are WRONG!"

The normal reply is: "Well, that's like your opinion, man..."

And both sides go off (maybe after a little arguing) and continue to play RPG's.

In short, in the OSR you are continually surrounded by people with opinions that are not shy about telling you what you are doing wrong.

SJW's HATE that shit. They hate judgmental environments. They want to accepted no matter what, and stepping into  a community of people who are not shy about expressing their contradictory viewpoint is an intolerable situation.

I have literally seen SJW posters say they have been turned off playing for long periods because of something said to them online in an RPG forum...

And that is a good thing.


The OSR is not a "unifying" movement - it is a thresher that separates the wheat from the chaff.

In all the arguments and chaos, the OSR is a great melting pot of ideas that are directly relevant to how RPGs are played at the table.

Ideas which are useful are universally acknowledged, and widely adopted. The patently ridiculous get tossed out of the room faster than a blonde on prom night.


So while the OSR may not be the movement that "beats" the SJW's. It will be one that outlasts them.

And IMHO, it just might be the place where the game designers who eventually do to D&D what pathfinder couldn't will come from.

Quote from: Jaeger on August 31, 2021, 08:41:13 PM

Quote from: SonTodoGato on August 31, 2021, 01:36:58 PM
No one is stopping you from playing Barney the Dinosaur if so you wish... we just think it's not a good way to play. OSR isn't just Sword & sorcery, humans-only, though.

I don't see how we're expected to "beat" the wokists, whatever that is. Are we supposed to compromise and start including genasis in our games so that we don't scare away people who are new to the hobby and have been introduced by the wokes? This is exactly what we want to avoid.

IMHO, the purpose of the OSR was never to beat the Wokoso's.

It was simply about getting back to the style of play D&D in the form of 3 and 4e was moving away from.


That it has largely been immune to SJW infiltration is due to several factors.

1: While some may complain about the different "factions" within the OSR - this is a feature, not a bug. The balkanized nature of the OSR community makes it very difficult for the SJW's to infiltrate, organize, and gain control of the narrative of what the OSR is all about.

Even on RPG forums that are dismissive of the OSR and try to slander it, there are enough quality OSR designers out there that they have been unable to get people to throw away the baby with the bathwater.


2: On the: "Putting gaming preferences ahead of the practical interests of finding common ground." Again,  Feature not bug!

The utter refusal to bow to narrative of 'player-entitlement' with "My table, my rules!" is foundational to keeping the freaks and creeps out of the OSR.

There is a BIG push that if a race/power is available in a "core" rulebook that; It. Must. Be. Allowed. The OSR popping a big middle finger to that entire notion is an essential element in keeping the OSR furry free.


3: ONE TRUE WAYISM: "If you don't play their way, you're doing it wrong." Yes, even this: Feature, not bug.

The BrOSR, OD&D Cultists, B/X adherents, Retro clones "that do it better", Jeffro vs. Pundit infighting...

These are all essential gatekeeping elements that keep the SJW freaks out!

When most in the OSR hear: "If you are not doing X like y according to AD&D pg.7. You are WRONG!"

The normal reply is: "Well, that's like your opinion, man..."

And both sides go off (maybe after a little arguing) and continue to play RPG's.

In short, in the OSR you are continually surrounded by people with opinions that are not shy about telling you what you are doing wrong.

SJW's HATE that shit. They hate judgmental environments. They want to accepted no matter what, and stepping into  a community of people who are not shy about expressing their contradictory viewpoint is an intolerable situation.

I have literally seen SJW posters say they have been turned off playing for long periods because of something said to them online in an RPG forum...

And that is a good thing.


The OSR is not a "unifying" movement - it is a thresher that separates the wheat from the chaff.

In all the arguments and chaos, the OSR is a great melting pot of ideas that are directly relevant to how RPGs are played at the table.

Ideas which are useful are universally acknowledged, and widely adopted. The patently ridiculous get tossed out of the room faster than a blonde on prom night.


So while the OSR may not be the movement that "beats" the SJW's. It will be one that outlasts them.

And IMHO, it just might be the place where the game designers who eventually do to D&D what pathfinder couldn't will come from.

Greetings!

Excellent points, Jaeger! So many things that some people want to see as *BUGS* of the OSR are, as you so well noted, *FEATURES*. The in-fighting, the one true wayism, the belligerence, the often opinionated, confrontational styles--are a series of attributes that combine to keep the SJW freaks at bay and away from the OSR. Every step of the way, the SJW is confronted by mechanics, traditions, opinions, styles, and gamers that frustrate and oppose them endlessly.

I think it is a fantastic thing, and an environment that keeps the OSR strong, healthy, and independent.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

People should try Roleplaying sometime.

In Roleplaying, you pretend you're someone you're not.  That someone lives in a world, a setting.

If that setting has X, then it's possible to play X.
If that setting doesn't have X, then it's impossible to play X.
No sane adult should have an issue with this.

But, it's the GM's setting and the GM's game. 
If the GM wants to allow you to be an Arduin Deodanth, in Shadowrun, he can. 
If he wants you to allow you to be a Timelord stuck in the Realms without a TARDIS & Sonic Screwdriver, he can.

He doesn't have to, however, and there should be no assumption that he does.

I don't understand where "wokists" enters the discussion.

The unsettling part is that this is 2021, not 1981.

There is so much out there for gaming material. So many PDF files spanning decades. Unlike my time you have access literally to ANYONE out there: if you want a "transexuals-only" gaming group you can with very little effort. Want a game with cute anthros inspired by "Dragon Winter" by Niel Hancock? There you go. Regular bash down the door rescue the girl in the chainmail bikini and grab the loot after killing Lord Nastnaughty gaming? What's stopping you today?

Yet the "woke" complain. It is obvious that they not only want the right to play their way, but that YOU must play according to their rules. Even if they change from week to week.

Some people think you are having badwrongfun, if you aren't playing according to their rules.  Piss on that.  If I want to play pin the tail on the evil Drow, that's my business.  If I want to play burn the witches, that's my business.  If I want to support content that's in line with the way I want to play, that's my business.

My dollar is my dollar.  My game is my game.

I don't give 2 shits how other people like to play.  You do you, and I'll do me, etc.

I'm not gonna lie most of the games and products I buy are going to the chop shop to be stripped down for parts or perhaps a nicer image is them being mined for ideas. Every once in a while I find something that seems like it can just stand on its own and be a fun thing to do without chopping, pressing, cooking it into gaming luncheon meat with olive slices and cheese blots but it's not the usual experience. Usually the games I buy are ingredients for a sausage or casserole dish.

Quote from: Jaeger on August 31, 2021, 08:41:13 PM
The OSR is not a "unifying" movement - it is a thresher that separates the wheat from the chaff.

In all the arguments and chaos, the OSR is a great melting pot of ideas that are directly relevant to how RPGs are played at the table.

Ideas which are useful are universally acknowledged, and widely adopted. The patently ridiculous get tossed out of the room faster than a blonde on prom night.

Entirely agree with the whole post--despite the fact that most of my ideas are going to end up OSR chaff in this analogy. 

Look, my tastes are so out of phase with most people, that what works for me is often not works for others.  And by "out of phase" I mean in that Star Trek sense where it isn't opposite day or different just to be different, but rather 2 degrees off here and 5 degrees off there, and pretty soon you end up in another world entirely. 

That makes the "thresher" more valuable to me, not less!  Because in order to see where I need to go out of phase to accomplish my objective, I need the ideas thrashed soundly.  Then I'll pick up a little piece of idea A and graft it onto ideas B and C, and get close to where I want to go, and test and design from there.  Granted, that means that the likelihood of me "giving back" in the form of some useful "wheat" is pretty low, but I do buy the occasional product ...

Quote from: Jaeger on August 31, 2021, 08:41:13 PM
3: ONE TRUE WAYISM: "If you don't play their way, you're doing it wrong." Yes, even this: Feature, not bug.

The BrOSR, OD&D Cultists, B/X adherents, Retro clones "that do it better", Jeffro vs. Pundit infighting...

These are all essential gatekeeping elements that keep the SJW freaks out!

Quote from: Jaeger on August 31, 2021, 08:41:13 PM
In short, in the OSR you are continually surrounded by people with opinions that are not shy about telling you what you are doing wrong.

SJW's HATE that shit. They hate judgmental environments. They want to accepted no matter what, and stepping into  a community of people who are not shy about expressing their contradictory viewpoint is an intolerable situation.

I have literally seen SJW posters say they have been turned off playing for long periods because of something said to them online in an RPG forum...

It's not just SJWs who hate being torn down by judgemental assholes, though. Most gamers who just wants to play a fun game will get turned off to RPGs if enough people come at them online telling them they're doing it wrong for not going the One True Way.

I've also encountered plenty of storygamers and/or social justice advocates who insist on One True Way. I hate that shit too. For years in the early 2000s, I was the pain in the butt on The Forge and Storygames.com arguing against One-True-Wayists there. If that had been my introduction to role-playing, I might have stopped playing.

Thankfully, I was introduced to RPGs in the pre-Internet days when they were fun games to play with other kids.

Quote from: jhkim on September 01, 2021, 12:59:23 PM

Quote from: Jaeger on August 31, 2021, 08:41:13 PM
3: ONE TRUE WAYISM: "If you don't play their way, you're doing it wrong." Yes, even this: Feature, not bug.

The BrOSR, OD&D Cultists, B/X adherents, Retro clones "that do it better", Jeffro vs. Pundit infighting...

These are all essential gatekeeping elements that keep the SJW freaks out!

Quote from: Jaeger on August 31, 2021, 08:41:13 PM
In short, in the OSR you are continually surrounded by people with opinions that are not shy about telling you what you are doing wrong.

SJW's HATE that shit. They hate judgmental environments. They want to accepted no matter what, and stepping into  a community of people who are not shy about expressing their contradictory viewpoint is an intolerable situation.

I have literally seen SJW posters say they have been turned off playing for long periods because of something said to them online in an RPG forum...

It's not just SJWs who hate being torn down by judgemental assholes, though. Most gamers who just wants to play a fun game will get turned off to RPGs if enough people come at them online telling them they're doing it wrong for not going the One True Way.

I've also encountered plenty of storygamers and/or social justice advocates who insist on One True Way. I hate that shit too. For years in the early 2000s, I was the pain in the butt on The Forge and Storygames.com arguing against One-True-Wayists there. If that had been my introduction to role-playing, I might have stopped playing.

Thankfully, I was introduced to RPGs in the pre-Internet days when they were fun games to play with other kids.

Good God, why are you making me have to agree with jhkim!?!

Anyone who makes a living by public speaking/persuasion/sales will tell you the same thing; telling someone you're tying to persuade that "You're doing it wrong" is the number one way to get your audience to stop listening to anything you have to say.

The only reason to do it (and the reason SJWs do it so much) is to target a member of an outgroup with it as a signal to your ingroup that you're one of them and not a member of the outgroup. i.e. its straight up virtue signaling.

Play whatever the heck you want, but telling others that only your way is good and their way is bad is a great way to make sure that people who might agree with you on 90% of the problems pay no attention that 90% because you keep berating them up over what is almost always a pretty trivial 10%.

The OP wanted to know why the OSR triggers people? That's it right there. Woke nutjobs are trying to take over the hobby and demanding their politics be shoved into every last orifice, but if you don't agree that random attributes, fantasy fucking Vietnam and nothing but Tolkien races is the only way to play then swaths of the OSR write you off as in the same camp as the SJWs who want you to have no voice at all because you don't want anything of theirs in any of your orifices.

The result is a whole slew of people who could be allies in pushing back at WokeTC's agenda just checking out because a vocal chunk of the OSR will drop you just for preferring point buy to 3d6 in order and not the much more important shared belief that "GAMES SHOULD BE FUN."

Quote from: Chris24601 on September 01, 2021, 02:03:22 PM
Anyone who makes a living by public speaking/persuasion/sales will tell you the same thing; telling someone you're tying to persuade that "You're doing it wrong" is the number one way to get your audience to stop listening to anything you have to say.

The only reason to do it (and the reason SJWs do it so much) is to target a member of an outgroup with it as a signal to your ingroup that you're one of them and not a member of the outgroup. i.e. its straight up virtue signaling.

It's a bit more complex than that. While it's true that telling people they're wrong will usually provoke a defensive reaction that kills any receptivity to chance, and some people do it as a way to signal their virtue to a group of the already converted, the excluded middle is also very important because that's where the marketplace of ideas exists. Because while disagreeing with someone won't convince the person you're replying to, if the audience includes people who are sympathetic but unconvinced, indifferent, or even unsympathetic but not completely so, then you may end up swaying their thinking. This is a very gradual process; sudden conversion is a unicorn. But over time, people who haven't shut themselves off from all alternative views will absorb the arguments and new information, and may shift to a new set of beliefs over time. Even if it just confirms their preexisting biases, it still gives them a better grounding for their beliefs.

Among friends or presumed friends, we tend to default to the friendly approach, especially when it's face to face. But in places like messageboards or broader social media, where there's a like interest but a lot of unknown people, we often default to a more adversarial approach. That can turn nasty, and due to the 1:manymanymany relationship that happens when something gets a lot of attention on the intrawebs, it can feel like an infinite dogpile.

The tone of "you are doing it wrong" matters a lot. 

Sometimes it's flat trolling.

If it's the smarmy, no thought reflex so characteristic of most SJW (and many people who have posted from their phone so long that all they do is think in tweets), then it's just pure annoying.

Sometimes it's the arrogant, "Can't believe I'm having to explain this again" bit, which can be off-putting but might have some real insight behind it if you catch the guy on a good day.  Other times, not in the mood to wade through the attitude looking for gold.

Sometimes it's merely the preface to kind of set the boundaries of the discussion before more reasonable thoughts follow.

Sometimes it's a joke to kind of let everyone know that the masked debators are about to climb into the arena and bounce off the ropes and break chairs over each others' heads.

Quote from: jhkim on September 01, 2021, 12:59:23 PM
...
It's not just SJWs who hate being torn down by judgemental assholes, though. Most gamers who just wants to play a fun game will get turned off to RPGs if enough people come at them online telling them they're doing it wrong for not going the One True Way. ...

Quote from: Chris24601 on September 01, 2021, 02:03:22 PM
Good God, why are you making me have to agree with jhkim!?!

Wait, what!?

*Runs into basement lair and reviews recent home invasion video files where I made RPG groups #doitright*

Sorry, Wasn't me...

Quote from: Chris24601 on September 01, 2021, 02:03:22 PM
Anyone who makes a living by public speaking/persuasion/sales will tell you the same thing; telling someone you're tying to persuade that "You're doing it wrong" is the number one way to get your audience to stop listening to anything you have to say....
...

Even in the OSR the "one true wayists" are a minority group – a bit loud at times, but a minority.

Having "one true wayists" in you "community" would be a legit issue. For a game company.


But the OSR has no single game it gathers around, nor developer or personality in anything resembling a leadership role.

And Frankly at this point in time, keeping SJW's OUT of the OSR, is far more important than gathering some fence-sitters who had their fee fee's hurt because some rando on the internet told them they were playing "fake D&D".

I think a lot of the "you're doing it wrong" spiel is an attempt to sell wares by trying to project the big dick energy. Kind of a negging people into listening approach mixed with being outrageous to draw attention.

Braggadocio and "mad prophet on the street corner who will tell you the truth and you won't like it...at first " actually works with some people.