Quote from: Chris24601 on August 31, 2021, 07:19:48 AM

Quote from: Pat on August 30, 2021, 11:03:58 PM

Quote from: Eirikrautha on August 30, 2021, 10:45:54 PM

Quote from: Pat on August 30, 2021, 07:28:17 PM

Quote from: GriswaldTerrastone on August 30, 2021, 06:45:02 PM
It is related- the entire issue here is interconnected. Just look at "modern" AD&D as opposed to old-style AD&D, and there it is. Remember I've seen all of this happening since the mid-1970's, when I could understand it.

Correlation is not causation. There is correlation, but they're independent variables.

Not really, they come from the same mentality.  "There is more in heaven and earth, Horatio, than is dreamt of in your philosophy."

They're two traits shared by a certain group of people you and Griswald seem to dislike. That doesn't mean there's any real commonality. Just because you meet two people who are tall and have red hair doesn't mean they're siblings. The reason I'm distinguishing them is because the tendency to make characters who have no negative qualities and no place to grow or develop is pretty much a universal negative, but evil druids? You can like it or dislike it, but that's just a slight stylistic change to the game.

Not allowing evil druids also buys into D&D's official cosmologies as the ONLY valid cosmologies for play. In the real world there is evidence of human sacrifice performed by the druids (the victims may have been condemned criminals, but condemned for what?)

I'm picturing an adventure now where the PCs have been hired to rescue someone from a circle of druids before they sacrifice them at the next full moon... their crime to warrent the hideous death? The individual got lost in the forest and stumbled into a sacred grove during one of the druid's secret rites.

That druid behavior would make them villains and anyone who'd sacrifice someone for the "crime" of getting lost is evil in my book.

But that's not allowed because "evil druids" is supposedly Woke wankery. I bet an evil priest with all sort of pseudo-Christian trappings would be a perfectly acceptable villain to them though. Boy, the people behind the Woke would laugh their asses off about that irony.

Yet another  example of why B/X's Alignment system was better.  Law is not necessarily Good and Chaos is not necessarily Evil.  Druids sacrificing someone because they got lost and violated the sanctity of the Druid's sacred grove would fit perfectly within a Lawful alignment.  He broke the rules, he must be punished.

The loose Alignment also opens up a TON of possible characters that you have to make up entire new classes for under the AD&D 9 Alignment system such as Paladin Dredd.  You also avoid the stupid arguments over weather Paladin Dredd, who will gladly exterminate Orc children since they bear the taint of Chaos on their very being or enslave a child for stealing bread because that's the law of this Kingdom, is Lawful Evil or Lawful Neutral.

Quote from: Chris24601 on August 31, 2021, 07:19:48 AM

Quote from: Pat on August 30, 2021, 11:03:58 PM

Quote from: Eirikrautha on August 30, 2021, 10:45:54 PM

Quote from: Pat on August 30, 2021, 07:28:17 PM

Quote from: GriswaldTerrastone on August 30, 2021, 06:45:02 PM
It is related- the entire issue here is interconnected. Just look at "modern" AD&D as opposed to old-style AD&D, and there it is. Remember I've seen all of this happening since the mid-1970's, when I could understand it.

Correlation is not causation. There is correlation, but they're independent variables.

Not really, they come from the same mentality.  "There is more in heaven and earth, Horatio, than is dreamt of in your philosophy."

They're two traits shared by a certain group of people you and Griswald seem to dislike. That doesn't mean there's any real commonality. Just because you meet two people who are tall and have red hair doesn't mean they're siblings. The reason I'm distinguishing them is because the tendency to make characters who have no negative qualities and no place to grow or develop is pretty much a universal negative, but evil druids? You can like it or dislike it, but that's just a slight stylistic change to the game.

Not allowing evil druids also buys into D&D's official cosmologies as the ONLY valid cosmologies for play. In the real world there is evidence of human sacrifice performed by the druids (the victims may have been condemned criminals, but condemned for what?)

I'm picturing an adventure now where the PCs have been hired to rescue someone from a circle of druids before they sacrifice them at the next full moon... their crime to warrent the hideous death? The individual got lost in the forest and stumbled into a sacred grove during one of the druid's secret rites.

That druid behavior would make them villains and anyone who'd sacrifice someone for the "crime" of getting lost is evil in my book.

But that's not allowed because "evil druids" is supposedly Woke wankery. I bet an evil priest with all sort of pseudo-Christian trappings would be a perfectly acceptable villain to them though. Boy, the people behind the Woke would laugh their asses off about that irony.

Where do you get that there are no evil druids? Is this a real thing that's come up or just some hyperbolic non-example?

Quote from: HappyDaze on August 31, 2021, 10:12:29 AM
Where do you get that there are no evil druids? Is this a real thing that's come up or just some hyperbolic non-example?

It started because Griswald Terrastone compared evil druids to Rey from the latest Star Wars trilogy:
https://www.therpgsite.com/pen-paper-roleplaying-games-rpgs-discussion/why-does-the-osr-trigger-people-so-much/msg1185587/#msg1185587

Here's a history lesson for you kid:

Eldritch Wizardty, 1976, Gary Gygax & Brian Blume

QuoteDruids: Druids are a sub-class of Clerics. They are neutral in nature (as mentioned in GREY- HAWK). They are more closely attuned to Nature, serving as its priests rather than serving some other deity. Mistletoe takes a place of importance with them as a holy symbol or item as crosses and other like items do with other types of clerics.

Player's Handbook 1978 Gary Gygax, p.20

QuoteTho Druid
The druid is a sub-class of clerics. They are the only absolute neutrals (see ALIGNMENT), viewing good and evil, law and chaos, as balancing forces of nature which are necessary for the continuation of all things. As priests of nature, they must have a minimum wisdom of 12 and a charisma of 15. Both of these major attributes must exceed 15 if a druid is to gain a 10% bonus to earned experience.

Quote from: Pat on August 31, 2021, 10:22:36 AM

Quote from: HappyDaze on August 31, 2021, 10:12:29 AM
Where do you get that there are no evil druids? Is this a real thing that's come up or just some hyperbolic non-example?

It started because Griswald Terrastone compared evil druids to Rey from the latest Star Wars trilogy:
https://www.therpgsite.com/pen-paper-roleplaying-games-rpgs-discussion/why-does-the-osr-trigger-people-so-much/msg1185587/#msg1185587

Keep spitting on that grain of sand and squeezing it for all it's worth...maybe you'll get a pearl.

Quote from: HappyDaze on August 31, 2021, 10:39:05 AM

Quote from: Pat on August 31, 2021, 10:22:36 AM

Quote from: HappyDaze on August 31, 2021, 10:12:29 AM
Where do you get that there are no evil druids? Is this a real thing that's come up or just some hyperbolic non-example?

It started because Griswald Terrastone compared evil druids to Rey from the latest Star Wars trilogy:
https://www.therpgsite.com/pen-paper-roleplaying-games-rpgs-discussion/why-does-the-osr-trigger-people-so-much/msg1185587/#msg1185587

Keep spitting on that grain of sand and squeezing it for all it's worth...maybe you'll get a pearl.

I haven't been involved in the conversation for a bit. I just clarified where the evil druids reference came from, because you asked.

Quote from: Svenhelgrim on August 31, 2021, 10:28:24 AM
Here's a history lesson for you kid:

Eldritch Wizardty, 1976, Gary Gygax & Brian Blume

QuoteDruids: Druids are a sub-class of Clerics. They are neutral in nature (as mentioned in GREY- HAWK). They are more closely attuned to Nature, serving as its priests rather than serving some other deity. Mistletoe takes a place of importance with them as a holy symbol or item as crosses and other like items do with other types of clerics.

Player's Handbook 1978 Gary Gygax, p.20

QuoteTho Druid
The druid is a sub-class of clerics. They are the only absolute neutrals (see ALIGNMENT), viewing good and evil, law and chaos, as balancing forces of nature which are necessary for the continuation of all things. As priests of nature, they must have a minimum wisdom of 12 and a charisma of 15. Both of these major attributes must exceed 15 if a druid is to gain a 10% bonus to earned experience.

So what exactly is your argument here?

Is it because Gary says in his game that druids must be neutral you can NEVER have a setting where this is not true? That the OSR is just as much a bunch of OneTrueWayist bullshit as the Woke crowd?

Because I'll tell you right now, the single biggest turnoff about the OSR for me is the number of proponents of it whose only real complaint against the SJWs is that they want the cultural heft of the Woke to declare their own OSR OneTrueWay as the only acceptable way to game.

Quote from: Chris24601 on August 31, 2021, 10:58:16 AM

Quote from: Svenhelgrim on August 31, 2021, 10:28:24 AM
Here's a history lesson for you kid:

Eldritch Wizardty, 1976, Gary Gygax & Brian Blume

QuoteDruids: Druids are a sub-class of Clerics. They are neutral in nature (as mentioned in GREY- HAWK). They are more closely attuned to Nature, serving as its priests rather than serving some other deity. Mistletoe takes a place of importance with them as a holy symbol or item as crosses and other like items do with other types of clerics.

Player's Handbook 1978 Gary Gygax, p.20

QuoteTho Druid
The druid is a sub-class of clerics. They are the only absolute neutrals (see ALIGNMENT), viewing good and evil, law and chaos, as balancing forces of nature which are necessary for the continuation of all things. As priests of nature, they must have a minimum wisdom of 12 and a charisma of 15. Both of these major attributes must exceed 15 if a druid is to gain a 10% bonus to earned experience.

So what exactly is your argument here?

Is it because Gary says in his game that druids must be neutral you can NEVER have a setting where this is not true? That the OSR is just as much a bunch of OneTrueWayist bullshit as the Woke crowd?

Because I'll tell you right now, the single biggest turnoff about the OSR for me is the number of proponents of it whose only real complaint against the SJWs is that they want the cultural heft of the Woke to declare their own OSR OneTrueWay as the only acceptable way to game.

Not me. You want "evil" druids in your campaign, then go for it. You do you, and I'll do me. To me that is what the OSR is about.

I could give two shits what you do at your table.  If you want to have chaotic evil druids, have at it.  My point was to illustrate, that at one point in the hobby, Druids were "supposed" to be exclusively True Neutral in alignment, just like Paladins HAD to he Lawful Good. 

Personally, our gaming group quickly dispensed with the True Neutral Only alignment restrictions for Druids and allowed Neutral Good, True Neutral, and Neutral Evil.  This was in '81.

We had good sects, that helped the farmers exist along with Nature, Neutral sects that tried to oreserve nature, and evil "eco-terrorist" sects that felt that civilization was an abomination and humanoids were an abberrant species that needed to be expunged...except for them of course.

Quote from: Torque2100 on August 31, 2021, 10:10:18 AM

Quote from: Chris24601 on August 31, 2021, 07:19:48 AM

Quote from: Pat on August 30, 2021, 11:03:58 PM

Quote from: Eirikrautha on August 30, 2021, 10:45:54 PM

Quote from: Pat on August 30, 2021, 07:28:17 PM

Quote from: GriswaldTerrastone on August 30, 2021, 06:45:02 PM
It is related- the entire issue here is interconnected. Just look at "modern" AD&D as opposed to old-style AD&D, and there it is. Remember I've seen all of this happening since the mid-1970's, when I could understand it.

Correlation is not causation. There is correlation, but they're independent variables.

Not really, they come from the same mentality.  "There is more in heaven and earth, Horatio, than is dreamt of in your philosophy."

They're two traits shared by a certain group of people you and Griswald seem to dislike. That doesn't mean there's any real commonality. Just because you meet two people who are tall and have red hair doesn't mean they're siblings. The reason I'm distinguishing them is because the tendency to make characters who have no negative qualities and no place to grow or develop is pretty much a universal negative, but evil druids? You can like it or dislike it, but that's just a slight stylistic change to the game.

Not allowing evil druids also buys into D&D's official cosmologies as the ONLY valid cosmologies for play. In the real world there is evidence of human sacrifice performed by the druids (the victims may have been condemned criminals, but condemned for what?)

I'm picturing an adventure now where the PCs have been hired to rescue someone from a circle of druids before they sacrifice them at the next full moon... their crime to warrent the hideous death? The individual got lost in the forest and stumbled into a sacred grove during one of the druid's secret rites.

That druid behavior would make them villains and anyone who'd sacrifice someone for the "crime" of getting lost is evil in my book.

But that's not allowed because "evil druids" is supposedly Woke wankery. I bet an evil priest with all sort of pseudo-Christian trappings would be a perfectly acceptable villain to them though. Boy, the people behind the Woke would laugh their asses off about that irony.

Yet another  example of why B/X's Alignment system was better.  Law is not necessarily Good and Chaos is not necessarily Evil.  Druids sacrificing someone because they got lost and violated the sanctity of the Druid's sacred grove would fit perfectly within a Lawful alignment.  He broke the rules, he must be punished.

The loose Alignment also opens up a TON of possible characters that you have to make up entire new classes for under the AD&D 9 Alignment system such as Paladin Dredd.  You also avoid the stupid arguments over weather Paladin Dredd, who will gladly exterminate Orc children since they bear the taint of Chaos on their very being or enslave a child for stealing bread because that's the law of this Kingdom, is Lawful Evil or Lawful Neutral.

Ahhh, but I did see Paladin Dredd give a homeless guy a pass, and a rookie a freebie for losing her weapon.  Not sure how well that movie jived with the long running comic character, but it does seem there is a little wiggle room for Dredd regarding context.   But I agree the law/chaos/neutral system is MUCH better at reflecting more scope in a character's actions. Conan is a pretty good example of Chaotic (till he is King, then he seems more neutral), whether that be stabbing a weaker pirate captain after gaining his trust and stealing his ship, or risking his life to save a person he views as a friend, or even someone he owes a favor.

Quote from: Svenhelgrim on August 31, 2021, 11:13:06 AM
I could give two shits what you do at your table.

Tell that to the guy upthread who has declared having evil druids in your campaign means you're a Wokist then.

QuoteIf you want to have chaotic evil druids, have at it.  My point was to illustrate, that at one point in the hobby, Druids were "supposed" to be exclusively True Neutral in alignment, just like Paladins HAD to he Lawful Good. 

Minor correction... "at one point in D&D, Druids were "supposed" to be exclusively True Neutral in alignment."

Also, to my point... So freaking what? Because AD&D did it that way if you don't do it that way you're doing it wrong? Because that's what some of these people are saying.

If your fantasy world doesn't have humans, dwarves, elves and hobbits as playable races you're doing it wrong. According to them if you have have a world where, because of its history humans, tieflings and dragonborn are the dominant races and elves and dwarves are reclusive forest/underground spirit-folk who want nothing to do with mortals and halflings don't exist because you don't want your world to be a Tolkien rip-off... well, that's Wokists trying to destroy the hobby.

I hate the OSR because its filled with the exact same type of assholes as the WotC Wokists... the ones who are really just butthurt they're not the ones getting to shove their preferred playstyle down the vast majority of players' throats... not at the idea that people should be entitled to play whatever they enjoy.

How DARE you have race options that didn't appear as members of the Fellowship of the Ring (or human only if you're hardcore)! How DARE you use anything other random dice rolls for your ability scores! How DARE you not follow the "Zero-to-Hero" model where low level PCs can die at the drop of the hat and you cycle through them like changes of clothing until you get one lucky enough to survive!

I've heard every last one of those at some point from an OSR proponent. If you don't play their way, you're doing it wrong and are either deluded or an SJW.

The reason the OSR triggers people is that its been made toxic by some very toxic people being involved with it.

Quote from: Chris24601 on August 31, 2021, 12:48:09 PM


If your fantasy world doesn't have humans, dwarves, elves and hobbits as playable races you're doing it wrong. According to them if you have have a world where, because of its history humans, tieflings and dragonborn are the dominant races and elves and dwarves are reclusive forest/underground spirit-folk who want nothing to do with mortals and halflings don't exist because you don't want your world to be a Tolkien rip-off... well, that's Wokists trying to destroy the hobby.

How DARE you have race options that didn't appear as members of the Fellowship of the Ring (or human only if you're hardcore)! How DARE you use anything other random dice rolls for your ability scores! How DARE you not follow the "Zero-to-Hero" model where low level PCs can die at the drop of the hat and you cycle through them like changes of clothing until you get one lucky enough to survive!

This but unironically.

Quote from: Chris24601 on August 31, 2021, 12:48:09 PM


If your fantasy world doesn't have humans, dwarves, elves and hobbits as playable races you're doing it wrong. According to them if you have have a world where, because of its history humans, tieflings and dragonborn are the dominant races and elves and dwarves are reclusive forest/underground spirit-folk who want nothing to do with mortals and halflings don't exist because you don't want your world to be a Tolkien rip-off... well, that's Wokists trying to destroy the hobby.

How DARE you have race options that didn't appear as members of the Fellowship of the Ring (or human only if you're hardcore)! How DARE you use anything other random dice rolls for your ability scores! How DARE you not follow the "Zero-to-Hero" model where low level PCs can die at the drop of the hat and you cycle through them like changes of clothing until you get one lucky enough to survive!

I agree. Even dwarves and elves are too much for me. I'd rather keep them as supernatural creatures alongside fairies or angels. Tieflings, aasimar, furries, etc. are all debasing the flavor. I don't mind it, though, if sometimes the rules are not too impartial; it's okay to give the players some leeway for the sake of fun or the story every now and then (inb4 woke storygamer, you know what I meant)

Quote from: King Tyranno on August 31, 2021, 12:50:40 PM

Quote from: Chris24601 on August 31, 2021, 12:48:09 PM


If your fantasy world doesn't have humans, dwarves, elves and hobbits as playable races you're doing it wrong. According to them if you have have a world where, because of its history humans, tieflings and dragonborn are the dominant races and elves and dwarves are reclusive forest/underground spirit-folk who want nothing to do with mortals and halflings don't exist because you don't want your world to be a Tolkien rip-off... well, that's Wokists trying to destroy the hobby.

How DARE you have race options that didn't appear as members of the Fellowship of the Ring (or human only if you're hardcore)! How DARE you use anything other random dice rolls for your ability scores! How DARE you not follow the "Zero-to-Hero" model where low level PCs can die at the drop of the hat and you cycle through them like changes of clothing until you get one lucky enough to survive!

This but unironically.

I rest my case. The reason people hate the OSR is exactly because assholes like this are the main ones trying to push it; people who insult any player who likes anything other than their OneTrueWay. In terms of OSR people I've met in real life, every last one of them had this sort of mentality... and yet they can't seem to understand why no one is interested in playing with them.

YOU and those like you are the reason I hold the OSR in contempt and why you'll NEVER actually beat the Wokists... because you place your own gaming preferences ahead of the practical interests of finding common ground with all the non-woke gamers who would otherwise agree with you on 90+% of the problems in gaming.

Quote from: Chris24601 on August 31, 2021, 01:31:16 PM

Quote from: King Tyranno on August 31, 2021, 12:50:40 PM

Quote from: Chris24601 on August 31, 2021, 12:48:09 PM


If your fantasy world doesn't have humans, dwarves, elves and hobbits as playable races you're doing it wrong. According to them if you have have a world where, because of its history humans, tieflings and dragonborn are the dominant races and elves and dwarves are reclusive forest/underground spirit-folk who want nothing to do with mortals and halflings don't exist because you don't want your world to be a Tolkien rip-off... well, that's Wokists trying to destroy the hobby.

How DARE you have race options that didn't appear as members of the Fellowship of the Ring (or human only if you're hardcore)! How DARE you use anything other random dice rolls for your ability scores! How DARE you not follow the "Zero-to-Hero" model where low level PCs can die at the drop of the hat and you cycle through them like changes of clothing until you get one lucky enough to survive!

This but unironically.

YOU and those like you are the reason I hold the OSR in contempt and why you'll NEVER actually beat the Wokists

If you actually believe anything you just said you are just as bad as the people you claim to hate. I don't give a shit that Chris24601 holds me in contempt. I'm going to keep playing my B/X and you can do whatever freakshit you want. No one is stopping you making an OSR game where the main species are Furries or whatever else shit you can come up with.