Quote from: SonTodoGato on August 26, 2021, 11:01:34 AM
To the ones who can't see what's wrong with modern artwork, take a look at the sort of games and people they usually go with and tell me later if it is just as good as old school art.

There's some great old school art, but there are also some real stinkers.

The general concept of a Dungeoneering Wheelchair isn't an automatic deal-breaker for me. I've heard of and experienced weirder things being invented by player character groups in RPGs. And there's a certain appeal to the idea of a wheelchair version of the Baby Cart of Doom from Shogun Assassin/Lone Wolf & Cub.

No, the real issue for me is that I've read multiple editons of D&D over the decades. It's possible to use magic and enchantments to make that wheelchair- Apparatus of Kwalish, people? But nowhere have I found a set of D&D rules where characters could reach a level where it was possible to do so and not also have access to magic that would allow the character who needs that wheelchair to walk for less time and money than building the wheelchair would need.

Quote from: Ratman_tf on August 26, 2021, 11:41:23 AM

There's some great old school art, but there are also some real stinkers.

Ok, so who would you rather play with?

Quote from: Tantavalist on August 26, 2021, 11:47:22 AM
The general concept of a Dungeoneering Wheelchair isn't an automatic deal-breaker for me. I've heard of and experienced weirder things being invented by player character groups in RPGs. And there's a certain appeal to the idea of a wheelchair version of the Baby Cart of Doom from Shogun Assassin/Lone Wolf & Cub.

No, the real issue for me is that I've read multiple editons of D&D over the decades. It's possible to use magic and enchantments to make that wheelchair- Apparatus of Kwalish, people? But nowhere have I found a set of D&D rules where characters could reach a level where it was possible to do so and not also have access to magic that would allow the character who needs that wheelchair to walk for less time and money than building the wheelchair would need.

Ars Magica has pretty good rules for it. If someone's form is essentially that (as in their mechanical flaws selected that), then magic cannot permanently alter it. You could wrap someone in powerful lengthy enchantments, but then they suffer warping overtime. The wheelchair becomes infinitely more practical in such a well thought out magic system based in Aristotelian physics.

In Wolves of God, Lord must rely on a magic artifact from a Roman Caester because a Saint's magic could not heal a Lord.

In The Black Hack 2e, clerics have no spells to restore limbs.

I'm fully aware of this, and how the idea makes more sense in other settings that use different rules.

But it's not in any of the games that you mentioned. It's in D&D 5e, which explicitly does have magic which can restore just about any kind of physical disability you care to name.

Quote from: Tantavalist on August 26, 2021, 01:17:51 PM
I'm fully aware of this, and how the idea makes more sense in other settings that use different rules.

But it's not in any of the games that you mentioned. It's in D&D 5e, which explicitly does have magic which can restore just about any kind of physical disability you care to name.

Most spells are not in Ars Magica because you extrapolate from the rules.

Wolves of God has those mechanics pretty explicitly. Even without Magicc, "As Our Power Lessens" foci allows a warrior to ignore missing their legs because they found a way to overcome it. Either through ad-hoc prosthesis or some other method like a primitive wheeled chair. If you take the foci twice, not only do they ignore the scars, they are stronger for them. *Number of scars ignored is limited

If you look at D&D 5e critically, most it does not work at the same standard a magic wheelchair doesn't. I can defend no mechanic in the system so it seems silly to object at the wheelchair because the dumb magic systems does not work when it never works well.

It has been very rare where I've run a game where a player could reasonably play a centaur.  Not a disabled centaur, merely a horse size person with human head, torso, and arms.  It has happened occasionally that I've run games where that kind of thing would work, and a few players did take advantage of the opportunity to go with something off the beaten path.  It's a very different focus that is not my central idea of fun.

I have less than zero interest in playing with anyone that would even think about demanding that I accommodate their centaur character in my more typical game.  You can easily extrapolate from there.  And that's what this is also about, not "diversity" or "tolerance" but faux "tolerance" where people get to demand that everyone else accommodate them, because reasons.  Not playing that game, either figuratively or in reality.

Quote from: Steven Mitchell on August 26, 2021, 01:48:07 PMI have less than zero interest in playing with anyone that would even think about demanding that I accommodate their centaur character in my more typical game.

Thankfully for you, such people would not want to get within spitting distance of you let alone play at your table!

Actual people (as in those capable of sapient thought) don't want to play with "conservatives". You may be confusing demands with a litmus test to filter out bigots.

Quote from: SonTodoGato on August 26, 2021, 12:48:19 PM

Quote from: Ratman_tf on August 26, 2021, 11:41:23 AM

There's some great old school art, but there are also some real stinkers.

Ok, so who would you rather play with?

I'll play with anyone who behaves themselves at the table.

Quote from: Eric Diaz on August 25, 2021, 12:45:00 PM
The problem is not the OSR.

It's just that some people have a preferred style and no capability of understanding criticism.

Try to say 4e is better than 5e and vice-versa, and I'll sure you''l get lots of people complaining either way. and neither is OSR.

Also, the OSR is not a single thing, and I see a chasm between the "everything goes" of OD&D and the "play it this way or else!" in AD&D.

And as always everything is full of misconceptions (for example, fighting 4 goblins at level 1 might be slightly harder in 5e than AD&D - IIRC, but people would think it is the opposite).

But 4e is a better role-playing game than 5e.

5e is a scam. It presents an illusion of being all about "story" and "diversity" and all that other SJW crap when the core game itself is that it's just another dungeon hack-fest. But it's worse than that as 5e also pretends to be its own OSR take on D&D because 5e is all about "Rulings, not Rules" which IS the fundamental staple of what I feel is central to what defines the OSR.

The whole purpose of 5e, besides making money, was to tap into the D&D fans who liked pre-4e editions. In its core design (core being the 3 Core books only), 5e is an OSR game that was successfully hijacked by the Woke SJW's. Others can argue and claim that it's not OSR, but when you consider that the designers got a few OSR designers to be consultants for the game's design it's pretty clear that was the intention behind its original design.

Plus it was a way for WotC to give a few middle fingers to 4e and that won WotC a lot of praise even though 5e still has a lot of 4e in it. All you have to do is reformat the 5e class powers, change feet to square metrics, change Short/Long Rest to Encounter/Daily Power, and give Fighter and Paladin classes the Mark ability from the DMG. And bring in the Warlord. There is 4e in a 5e reskin. Considering how often the comparison of 5e is to being a superheroic fantasy/MMO kind of game it blows my mind how many don't see these similarities to 4e, which had the exact same comparisons.

"You'll go to the non-binary prom in your battle wheelchair and "dance" with a body positive ambiguously coded good drow and you'll like it or you're a racist woman hating nazi cunt" is exactly the kind of field salting incompetence the WotC vision for D&D & MtG need to collapse under its own weight.

I remember when this was going to bring Marvel and DC comics a new audience and instead they lost 80% of their store space to manga.

Quote from: Rhedyn on August 26, 2021, 02:14:15 PM

Quote from: Steven Mitchell on August 26, 2021, 01:48:07 PMI have less than zero interest in playing with anyone that would even think about demanding that I accommodate their centaur character in my more typical game.

Thankfully for you, such people would not want to get within spitting distance of you let alone play at your table!

Actual people (as in those capable of sapient thought) don't want to play with "conservatives". You may be confusing demands with a litmus test to filter out bigots.

You haven't offered any sapient arguments, don't sound like actual people at all, and you are displaying signs that you are extremely bigoted but it's good that you are very open about it.

Quote from: palaeomerus on August 26, 2021, 03:24:00 PM
You haven't offered any sapient arguments, don't sound like actual people at all, and you are displaying signs that you are extremely bigoted but it's good that you are very open about it.

Don't worry about it.  He quit trying to mask it a long time ago. He's just trolling at this point.

Quote from: palaeomerus on August 26, 2021, 03:24:00 PM

Quote from: Rhedyn on August 26, 2021, 02:14:15 PM

Quote from: Steven Mitchell on August 26, 2021, 01:48:07 PMI have less than zero interest in playing with anyone that would even think about demanding that I accommodate their centaur character in my more typical game.

Thankfully for you, such people would not want to get within spitting distance of you let alone play at your table!

Actual people (as in those capable of sapient thought) don't want to play with "conservatives". You may be confusing demands with a litmus test to filter out bigots.

You haven't offered any sapient arguments, don't sound like actual people at all, and you are displaying signs that you are extremely bigoted but it's good that you are very open about it.

*Proceeds to continue talking to random word generators

Racists or "conservatives" as they prefer to be called as they hide behind euphemism and complaints about wheelchairs (which is a whole other "ist" but one which is much more accepted by larger society so it is something they feel safer attacking) lack basic mental capacity or they would not be so overtly suicidally racist. Many are willing to effectively kill their grandparents if it harms minorities more. Now they are incapable of logically thinking through their beliefs step by step or they would not come to such horrible conclusions. This gross negligence on their parts leads at least myself to question their sapience. Obviously they are capable of suffering, but that is being sentient not sapience. I would much rather have a dog at my table than a "conservative" and they would probably be less disruptive.

"How dare you be a bigot towards bigots!" - this is a normal idiot phrase someone struggling to maintain their own sapience spurts out their face-hole. Virtuous tolerance is not harboring ill feeling towards harmless behaviors and being. Tolerating bigots is not virtuous tolerance and the act itself conflicts with other virtues. We could break it down in any ethical system and the accusation is still dumb.

Quote from: Tantavalist on August 26, 2021, 11:47:22 AM
The general concept of a Dungeoneering Wheelchair isn't an automatic deal-breaker for me. I've heard of and experienced weirder things being invented by player character groups in RPGs. And there's a certain appeal to the idea of a wheelchair version of the Baby Cart of Doom from Shogun Assassin/Lone Wolf & Cub.

No, the real issue for me is that I've read multiple editons of D&D over the decades. It's possible to use magic and enchantments to make that wheelchair- Apparatus of Kwalish, people? But nowhere have I found a set of D&D rules where characters could reach a level where it was possible to do so and not also have access to magic that would allow the character who needs that wheelchair to walk for less time and money than building the wheelchair would need.

I agree and I think this is a great example of why the discourse around "disability representation in RPGs" is such a hot mess.  The DnD 5e Combat Wheelchair is a horribly implemented piece of crap.  Its inclusion is totally nonsensical. By the time any Mage in core DnD 5e could craft that item, they could just as easily walk for a lot less time and money.  The problem here is that DnD is once again the big boy on the block, so the 5e combat wheelchair looms large and overshadows discussions of other games where the wheelchair is actually a wheelchair and not a magical flying tank.

So you get these discussions where everyone's just talking past each each other.  You say "I don't like the 5e combat wheelchair. I think this item is overpowered."  They hear "I hate disabled people and want to exclude them."  Or they say "I want to play a character who is paralyzed from the waist down" you hear "I demand you give me this super OP magical flying tank at First level or you're a bigot."