Quote from: Khazav on August 25, 2021, 08:13:37 PM
I don't understand the complaints about the second picture in both of the posts. Sure it's not my style but why do you think 'fantasy' ends with humans, elves, dwarves, and halflings? It could be said that people who don't like the new style aren't creative or imaginative enough to imagine owlpeople or wheelchairs. What's the point of limiting the imagination as long as it still results in an enjoyable game for some groups?

Because some people believe that limiting options to Tolkien's will somehow turn their adventures into this...



When most often a typical D&D campaign is this...



Or worse... this...

NO no no, you're supposed to grumble about monty haul munchkin murder hobos roll playing instead of roll playing. Who needs an orc guarding a chest or torches burning in an abandoned tomb?

Quote from: SonTodoGato on August 25, 2021, 10:55:58 AM
It's not the OSR, it's the people who play it. You have two sides; old school fantasy (basic, light rules, DIY-attitude, figuring things out and coming up with stuff on the run, sword & sorcery, "politically incorrect", grognards, hand-drawn art, gritty, free market/conservatism, sandboxing and exploring dungeons)

new school fantasy (complex rules, buying the new module, playing by the book, freakshitting fantasy and anime, diversity, "consent" and session zero, teens and young adults, digital art, violence is not allowed, marxism and "progress", "telling a story"). OSR is a reaction to being dissatisfied with the current state of affairs which naturally draws people with this kind of mindset.

Most new school are idiots who don't know any better; they were surrounded by the new school and didn't have anything to contrast; see the Allegory of the Cave. Others are willful dummies who can't wait to buy the next module so they're told what to think, how to play and to diversify everything in their marxist, anti-white cult.

A few pictures say it best

Just imagine all the crying that will take place; when the DM informs the party that because of pack tactics, the whole pack of Gnolls focuses their attacks upon the PC in the wheelchair of representation!!!

Quote from: King Tyranno on August 25, 2021, 08:33:13 AM
Why does the OSR trigger people so much?

Because you are dealing with the mentality ill. People that have no coping skills. Almost always, they have no YouTube channel. If anything, they'll hide behind a podcast.

Quote from: Jam The MF on August 26, 2021, 12:13:29 AM

Quote from: SonTodoGato on August 25, 2021, 10:55:58 AM
It's not the OSR, it's the people who play it. You have two sides; old school fantasy (basic, light rules, DIY-attitude, figuring things out and coming up with stuff on the run, sword & sorcery, "politically incorrect", grognards, hand-drawn art, gritty, free market/conservatism, sandboxing and exploring dungeons)

new school fantasy (complex rules, buying the new module, playing by the book, freakshitting fantasy and anime, diversity, "consent" and session zero, teens and young adults, digital art, violence is not allowed, marxism and "progress", "telling a story"). OSR is a reaction to being dissatisfied with the current state of affairs which naturally draws people with this kind of mindset.

Most new school are idiots who don't know any better; they were surrounded by the new school and didn't have anything to contrast; see the Allegory of the Cave. Others are willful dummies who can't wait to buy the next module so they're told what to think, how to play and to diversify everything in their marxist, anti-white cult.

A few pictures say it best

Just imagine all the crying that will take place; when the DM informs the party that because of pack tactics, the whole pack of Gnolls focuses their attacks upon the PC in the wheelchair of representation!!!

Greetings!

Of course! Hostile monsters and evil humanoids are alwaysgoing to focus their attacks against the weakest fucking opponent first. Once the weak moron in the wheelchair is swiftly and brutally slaughtered, the rest of the party is now down a member, and likely at an even greater disadvantage.

The train of shit just keeps getting bigger and bigger against the character party that wants to stupidly handicap themselves from the very beginning by even allowing such a stupid, crippled character to join their party. For most such parties, any venture beyond the town walls are likely to be a constant cascade of defeat and failure.

Such weak and stupid character parties deserve all the pain and defeat coming their way.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: palaeomerus on August 25, 2021, 11:36:16 PM
NO no no, you're supposed to grumble about monty haul munchkin murder hobos roll playing instead of roll playing. Who needs an orc guarding a chest or torches burning in an abandoned tomb?

Or guarding a pie.

But, to be honest, that is for the real hard core gamers.  Most players are not ready for that.

I guess wheelchair D&D doesn't require pitons, a hammer, 50 ' of rope, a grapnel, or the 10' pole huh?

All the dungeons have accessible elevators and ramps for any delvers in a wheel chair, and people in a wheel chair in real life (like my 87 year old mom with a hip pin, bad back, neuropathy, and two knee replacements) for instance, wouldn't want to be "pressured" into playing a character with exceptional "parkour & spelunking"  level mobility. AMIRIGHT?

The giant owl-lineage character can stay though. Xhe just might keep those creepy freakin' wererats away + move silently while flying, night vision, and "rip & tear until it is DONE!" for free.

Quote from: SHARK on August 26, 2021, 01:25:58 AM

Quote from: Jam The MF on August 26, 2021, 12:13:29 AM

Quote from: SonTodoGato on August 25, 2021, 10:55:58 AM
It's not the OSR, it's the people who play it. You have two sides; old school fantasy (basic, light rules, DIY-attitude, figuring things out and coming up with stuff on the run, sword & sorcery, "politically incorrect", grognards, hand-drawn art, gritty, free market/conservatism, sandboxing and exploring dungeons)

new school fantasy (complex rules, buying the new module, playing by the book, freakshitting fantasy and anime, diversity, "consent" and session zero, teens and young adults, digital art, violence is not allowed, marxism and "progress", "telling a story"). OSR is a reaction to being dissatisfied with the current state of affairs which naturally draws people with this kind of mindset.

Most new school are idiots who don't know any better; they were surrounded by the new school and didn't have anything to contrast; see the Allegory of the Cave. Others are willful dummies who can't wait to buy the next module so they're told what to think, how to play and to diversify everything in their marxist, anti-white cult.

A few pictures say it best

Just imagine all the crying that will take place; when the DM informs the party that because of pack tactics, the whole pack of Gnolls focuses their attacks upon the PC in the wheelchair of representation!!!

Greetings!

Of course! Hostile monsters and evil humanoids are alwaysgoing to focus their attacks against the weakest fucking opponent first. Once the weak moron in the wheelchair is swiftly and brutally slaughtered, the rest of the party is now down a member, and likely at an even greater disadvantage.

The train of shit just keeps getting bigger and bigger against the character party that wants to stupidly handicap themselves from the very beginning by even allowing such a stupid, crippled character to join their party. For most such parties, any venture beyond the town walls are likely to be a constant cascade of defeat and failure.

Such weak and stupid character parties deserve all the pain and defeat coming their way.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

And then when the Gnolls start dragging the fallen "hero" away from the rest of the party, to feed upon them; the crying will get even louder.  Why!!!  How could you!!!  You animal!!!

Yes, Gygax would be proud.

I'm going to repeat what I think most modern gamers want but fail to realize it or why they arrived at this point.

By building overpowered PC's and underpowered npc's we have finally managed to bring a equality of outcomes to the world of role playing games. It doesn't matter what you roll or who you are or really even how your built and tactics used all wotc characters are winners!


That right there is at least how I see modern games after running them and dealing with it's players for years.

It's also a GREAT way to wake them up if you can get them to see it's basically true.

While OSR games are: By playing characters who are underpowered verse the npc's the thrill of the game is when you manage to outthink and outplay the more powerful foes by skill, tactics or luck or a combination of all three. Even though we might fail at least we will fail spectacularly and giving it our all, even until our last hit point!

*Like Khan we spit at Death and our enemies with our last breath*

Quote from: Jam The MF on August 26, 2021, 05:36:49 AM

Quote from: SHARK on August 26, 2021, 01:25:58 AM

Quote from: Jam The MF on August 26, 2021, 12:13:29 AM

Quote from: SonTodoGato on August 25, 2021, 10:55:58 AM
*** TWO BIG PICTURES ***

You all are so fixated on the lesser problem here that you're missing the bigger one.

Yes, Wheelchair of Representation, yes, White People Are Cancelled. That's the smaller problem. The bigger problem is that this image, along with the other two I've seen so far from the same product, does not work as an illustration. It fails to interpret or explain the text. It fails to give the viewer an idea of what this setting is supposed to be about.

Look at the old picture: it's about a group of armed adventurers being in a dark and foreboding place underground and fighting a bizarre and deadly monster. And that's a perfect illustration, because that's what traditional dungeon crawling is. That picture shows what you get in the game.

But what about this new one here? It shows us three students... marvelling at something that's not in the picture. The other two illustrations are (predominantly) gay students dancing at prom and students hanging out in the library. These pictures fail to tell me what I should expect as a player when playing in this setting. What will we, the player, spend all evening doing around the table? Roleplay hanging out at the library? Roleplay a prom dance? Roleplay marvelling at something? Knowing that this is still fundamentally a Dungeons & Dragons setting, I doubt so. So what is adventuring all about in this setting? Is it about exploring magical archaeological digs? Is it about tracking down rare spell components? Is it about hunting down bizarre creatures that escaped from the school's lab? We don't know, because the illustrations fail to tell us.

Well, unless the setting is about roleplaying hanging out at the library and prom. But then why use D&D, instead of some mid-/new-school system which is deliberately designed to do that sort of thing?

Quote from: Premier on August 26, 2021, 07:37:32 AM
<snip>
Well, unless the setting is about roleplaying hanging out at the library and prom. But then why use D&D, instead of some mid-/new-school system which is deliberately designed to do that sort of thing?

Because destroying D&D for the rest of us is the objective. If we use the OSR, or even just our own unlabeled gaming table, as a way to keep "old" D&D alive, they can't win.

I have zero problems with the combat wheelchair. The Token Disabled Character goes decades back now.



And I've seen crazier shit in games. Hell, I've played crazier shit. Flip through any Rifts book, and you'll see groups that make those wankers look positivley conformist.

What I do dislike is the undertone that goes with it. Shall we beat the dead horse some more? Why not.
The "progressive" duck-speak politics that goes with it.

Quote from: Ratman_tf on August 26, 2021, 08:47:43 AM
I have zero problems with the combat wheelchair. The Token Disabled Character goes decades back now.

Some things don't translate well into TTRPGs though. 

The combat wheelchair assumes either 1) a universe where everything respects disability access compliance laws, or 2) a universe where the combat wheelchair has so many enhancements and features to allow its user to get anywhere the rest of the party can that it's just a cosmetic prop for what amounts to a non-disability (at which point, just give the PC magical legbraces or leg replacements or some such and be done with it), or 3) the party simply won't go into the irregular/cramped dungeon because they'd have to leave the handicapped PC behind and don't want to hurt their feelings.

"What about 4?  Where the rest of the party thinks its a fun challenge to help their friend up the castle tower?"

They do have fun, for a while.  Eventually though, dealing with the real world implications of living with a handicap gets handwaved away into irrelevance (option 2) or the party becomes more selective where they go (option 3) as the party stops finding it so fun.  I doubt a GM is going to handwave his entire universe into a place where every dungeon has side ramps, and every underground cavern has smooth flooring of a suitable height.

But yeah, some people really really really want to pretend that they have unfixable handicaps in D&D I guess.

"Why does OSR trigger people so much?"

Thread proceeds to be mainly complaints about Disabled, Black, and Women characters depicted in art...

No, I don't think it's the products that "trigger" people. It's the portion of the fan-base with "conservative" values. Your euphuism fool no one. As soon as someone implies they are "centrist" or "conservative", we all know they mean "cunt".

Quote from: Rhedyn on August 26, 2021, 10:54:02 AM
"Why does OSR trigger people so much?"

Thread proceeds to be mainly complaints about Disabled, Black, and Women characters depicted in art...

haha so triggered because you don't like to have relentless propaganda shoved down your throat in every piece of media xDD

Quote from: Habitual Gamer on August 26, 2021, 09:43:51 AM

Quote from: Ratman_tf on August 26, 2021, 08:47:43 AM
I have zero problems with the combat wheelchair. The Token Disabled Character goes decades back now.

The combat wheelchair assumes either 1) a universe where everything respects disability access compliance laws, or 2) a universe where the combat wheelchair has so many enhancements and features to allow its user to get anywhere the rest of the party can that it's just a cosmetic prop for what amounts to a non-disability (at which point, just give the PC magical legbraces or leg replacements or some such and be done with it), or 3) the party simply won't go into the irregular/cramped dungeon because they'd have to leave the handicapped PC behind and don't want to hurt their feelings.

"What about 4?  Where the rest of the party thinks its a fun challenge to help their friend up the castle tower?"

They do have fun, for a while.  Eventually though, dealing with the real world implications of living with a handicap gets handwaved away into irrelevance (option 2) or the party becomes more selective where they go (option 3) as the party stops finding it so fun.  I doubt a GM is going to handwave his entire universe into a place where every dungeon has side ramps, and every underground cavern has smooth flooring of a suitable height.

But yeah, some people really really really want to pretend that they have unfixable handicaps in D&D I guess.

You're partially right. The problem is that this is left-wing propaganda and nothing but propaganda against "ableism". It's identity politics and pseudo-morality preaching.

Quote from: Premier on August 26, 2021, 07:37:32 AM

You all are so fixated on the lesser problem here that you're missing the bigger one.

Yes, Wheelchair of Representation, yes, White People Are Cancelled. That's the smaller problem. The bigger problem is that this image, along with the other two I've seen so far from the same product, does not work as an illustration. It fails to interpret or explain the text. It fails to give the viewer an idea of what this setting is supposed to be about.

Look at the old picture: it's about a group of armed adventurers being in a dark and foreboding place underground and fighting a bizarre and deadly monster. And that's a perfect illustration, because that's what traditional dungeon crawling is. That picture shows what you get in the game.

But what about this new one here? It shows us three students... marvelling at something that's not in the picture. The other two illustrations are (predominantly) gay students dancing at prom and students hanging out in the library. These pictures fail to tell me what I should expect as a player when playing in this setting. What will we, the player, spend all evening doing around the table? Roleplay hanging out at the library? Roleplay a prom dance? Roleplay marvelling at something? Knowing that this is still fundamentally a Dungeons & Dragons setting, I doubt so. So what is adventuring all about in this setting? Is it about exploring magical archaeological digs? Is it about tracking down rare spell components? Is it about hunting down bizarre creatures that escaped from the school's lab? We don't know, because the illustrations fail to tell us.

Well, unless the setting is about roleplaying hanging out at the library and prom. But then why use D&D, instead of some mid-/new-school system which is deliberately designed to do that sort of thing?

I'd say the propaganda is the bigger deal. But you're right; this shows everything. OSR is about situations, exploring dungeons and fighting. Modern D&D is about how your character feels.

To answer the other question, they chose D&D because it's profitable.


-------------

To the ones who can't see what's wrong with modern artwork, take a look at the sort of games and people they usually go with and tell me later if it is just as good as old school art.