Quote from: Caesar SlaadThe more significant group whose tastes run a different way and feel threatened by the fact that they are in the minority and go to extremes of bashing and rationalization to receive validation that the majority that plays D&D are somehow objectively wrong/foolish/stupid/uninformed/responsible for all their gaming ills.

Now, see, I think this group is negligible. But I think the perception that it exists in great numbers is what Dominus Nox is talking about.

I'm not thrilled by standard D20 and don't really want to play it. I don't hate D&D style high fantasy, but I can't get into it at all. Playing a straight up D&D game (regardless of edition or mechaniics) holds no interest for me. However, I am, as I have stated before, a bitch for True20- which is a d20 varient, but really plays very differently.

Personally, I don't have the energy or the free time to devote to hating any particular system...my personal philosophy is "if it's a game, Ill play it."

I don't think anyone who dislikes any particular system hates it.

The main reason is because many of the people that talk about D20 in a negative way in fact hate D20 in an irrational way, and for irrational reasons, and make claims about D20 that are simply not true; or fundamentally despise it not for its own qualities, but because its the most popular (they're trying to be "rebels", which in the context of gaming is really pathetic).

If you just don't like D20 or don't give a shit about it, that's no big deal with anyone.
For example, I don't like HERO, but I don't have a hatred for it that resounds with every fibre of my being. Ditto with Shadowrun.

Whereas, if you spend an inordinate amount of your time preaching against D20/D&D, and making all kinds of bullshit claims about the "inferiority" of D20, then you're a hater.

RPGPundit

Quote from: joewolzPersonally, I don't have the energy or the free time to devote to hating any particular system...my personal philosophy is "if it's a game, Ill play it."

I don't think anyone who dislikes any particular system hates it.

This is where I am. I have never, given I'm playing with a group of players I like, had a bad time playing ANY game no matter what my personal opinion of it was. There are games I personally prefer for any number of reasons, but my opinion is that my enjoyment of a given gaming session is gonna be determined by the PLAYERS in my group so much more than the GAME we are playing that the game itself is reduced to almost no importance. So I really have never found the need to "hate" any game.

One interesting tidbit is that I have never seemed to get along with WoD players enough to join their group. I have had 2 opportunities, but passed both times... guess that says something about my tastes, although I still don't hate WoD.

Quote from: droogNow, see, I think this group is negligible.

Oh, they probably are in meatspace. Most people I know in real life happily wander between d20, WoD, and other games.

But RPGnet and various other fora tend to put a magnifying glass on this sort.

Quote from: Caesar SlaadBut RPGnet and various other fora tend to put a magnifying glass on this sort.

To see them burn in pain?

-clash

Quote from: flyingmiceTo see them burn in pain?

Oh, I've seen a few ignite in flames. Anyone else remember Kamikaze?

Quote from: Caesar SlaadOh, I've seen a few ignite in flames. Anyone else remember Kamikaze?

LINKPLZKTHX.

I have an unholy fascination with internet drama.  I love how anything that could be settled with a five-minute sitdown (or ten-second throwdown) in the real world always blossoms into a fifteen page thread that ends in a nuclear meltdown of personality cults.

Quote from: fonkaygarryLINKPLZKTHX.

I have an unholy fascination with internet drama.  I love how anything that could be settled with a five-minute sitdown (or ten-second throwdown) in the real world always blossoms into a fifteen page thread that ends in a nuclear meltdown of personality cults.

Wow. That's sig-worthy if anything is. Great fuckin' post.

EDIT: 'Course, now my sig is getting to be ridiculously large.

Quote from: fonkaygarryI have an unholy fascination with internet drama.  I love how anything that could be settled with a five-minute sitdown (or ten-second throwdown) in the real world always blossoms into a fifteen page thread that ends in a nuclear meltdown of personality cults.

Hmm, maybe Uwe Boll had the right approach after all...

Quote from: Dominus NoxI wish people who liked it would stop saying I "hated" it.

Because it's so much easier this way esp on internet forums. I mean, arguing with someone who you think hates (even though it's probably not the case) the game you love is a whole  lot more satifying than walking away from a rational discussion and getting on with playing a game you claim to love so dearly.

I mean, sometimes I think the people who say they love a game - any game -but defend it to the point of absudity do more damage to the game, than the people who don't like it or hate it.

Also, you can bet your last dollar, than on any threads where a specific game is being discussed and the general consensus is that the game is cool, you will always get someone jumping in and stirring shit. When this happens, the ones who don't like the game in question will be lumped together with the ones who actually hate the game (for whatever reasons).

Regards,
David R

Quote from: dsivisI don't know about the cats part, but I do think the Exalted thing is amusing (and possibly true). Ironic, because Exalted is pretty much D&D in a modified Storyteller system with Roman and East Asian aesthetic instead of a medieval/Tolkien one.

I really couldn't disagree with that more.  Exalted is very, very fundamentally different that D&D.  The base assumptions are even at odds, with D&D assuming the characters start out weak and grow stronger, will react to elements introduced by the GM, and have combat mechanics derived from wargaming roots.  Exalted assumed the characters start out incredibly powerful, will be 'movers and shakers' and it will be them changing the setting not the other way around, and has combat mechanics derived from CCG play.  I'm not saying one is better than the other, but they are apples and oranges.

As for the topic, it happens in lots of areas where people start feeling snobby about something.  This happens usually with younger folks, or occasionally older immature ones.  They have low self esteem and/or a low sense of self identity and therefore attach their self-worth to their interests.  And anyone who doesn't share their interests is clearly idiotic or immoral.  It's the same flavor of person that hates others because they listen to a certain kind of music or wear or don't wear certain fashions.  It isn't enough to simply not like something it sort of becomes a political statement.

Most of these people (I like to think) eventually grow out of it.  I don't care for D&D much these days myself, but I've had fun with it in the past.  Looking for something else now, but if someone else still gets off on elves and fighters and 10' corridors, rock on man.

Quote from: MaddmanI really couldn't disagree with that more.  Exalted is very, very fundamentally different that D&D.  The base assumptions are even at odds, with D&D assuming the characters start out weak and grow stronger, will react to elements introduced by the GM, and have combat mechanics derived from wargaming roots.  Exalted assumed the characters start out incredibly powerful, will be 'movers and shakers' and it will be them changing the setting not the other way around, and has combat mechanics derived from CCG play.  I'm not saying one is better than the other, but they are apples and oranges.

This hasn't been the first time I read this, and I have to say that the argument is pretty weak. Yes, most D&D games start at a pretty low power level. But this doesn't totally define the game. After the first few sessions, you're more powerful than any common man. I'd say the power difference between a mid-level D&D character and a common orc is a little bigger than that between a Solar Exalted and a Dragon-Blooded foe... And even the earlier D&D editions had quite some way to go _after_ you've become a mover & shaker. "Name level" is 9, and not all campaigns retired there...

The whole adventuring paradigm doesn't differ too much between 'normal' campaigns of the two systems. And Exalted crave for more power, too, it's not like they enter the world as full-fledged superheroes and stay at that level forever. In that way, Exalted is certainly closer to D&D than Marvel Superheroes...
And they've got a pretty good role separation, as is tradition with WW games. I don't see a big difference between Fighter, Cleric, Magic-User, Thief on the one hand and the Solar castes on the other hand...

Then again, _most_ role-playing games can be played that way. One has to jump through several razor-edged hoops to achieve something remarkably different. And you often end up with something rather unplayable.

Quote from: SosthenesThis hasn't been the first time I read this, and I have to say that the argument is pretty weak. Yes, most D&D games start at a pretty low power level. But this doesn't totally define the game. After the first few sessions, you're more powerful than any common man. I'd say the power difference between a mid-level D&D character and a common orc is a little bigger than that between a Solar Exalted and a Dragon-Blooded foe... And even the earlier D&D editions had quite some way to go _after_ you've become a mover & shaker. "Name level" is 9, and not all campaigns retired there...

But there's an essential difference.  The only thing seperating the 9th level D&D fighter and a peasant is experience, work, and training.  They are still the same manner of being.  Not so with the Exalts - they are superior, better in many ways from the throng of humanity.  No matter how hard he works, how much he trains, or even how valuable his gear is a mortal will never be more than a speedbump to one of the Exalted.

QuoteThe whole adventuring paradigm doesn't differ too much between 'normal' campaigns of the two systems. And Exalted crave for more power, too, it's not like they enter the world as full-fledged superheroes and stay at that level forever. In that way, Exalted is certainly closer to D&D than Marvel Superheroes...

How much Exalted have you played?  They generally don't go 'on adventures' as such, at least as I've played it (and people I've talked online have done it).  No dungeons to speak of in Creation (unless you count the Labrynth).  Dragons are more forces of nature than big foes with lots of treasure.  And I put it much closer to Marvel Superheroes than D&D - Exalted is essentially a supers game with fantasy trappings.

QuoteAnd they've got a pretty good role separation, as is tradition with WW games. I don't see a big difference between Fighter, Cleric, Magic-User, Thief on the one hand and the Solar castes on the other hand...

Then again, _most_ role-playing games can be played that way. One has to jump through several razor-edged hoops to achieve something remarkably different. And you often end up with something rather unplayable.[/QUOTE]

Again, can't really agree.  Yes, the Castes map pretty well to the fighter, cleric, mage, thief, and bard archetypes but they aren't restrictive classes.  You can make a Dawn that slings sorcery, or a night that's a melee monster, or an Eclipse that is a master of stealth.  These are by no means crippled characters.  I don't see the hoops needed to avoid something unplayable - you can take any skill and build an effective Solar out of it.  Finest chef in Creation - no problem!  A master poet whose words are so powerful that any who read them fall in love with the writer?  We could do that.

The games are really very different from each other.  If Exalted were D&D with some asian trappings I wouldn't be interested in it.