Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 02, 2023, 06:22:25 PM

Quote from: jhkim on March 02, 2023, 05:51:06 PM
I'm still stuck on the underlying difference here. Why is it OK for James Bond to retire because there are other agents who can take up the spy work -- but it's not OK for Luke Skywalker to be killed because there are other rebels who can take up the fight against the Empire?

Not ANYONE could turn Anakin back to the light side and defeat the Emperor.

Meanwhile in 007's universe as long as you have the training and pass the required tests ANYONE can be an agent and then become a 00 agent.

In Star Wars Killing Luke before the defeat/death of the Emperor BREAKS canon and throws me out of immersion.

In a spy game having one agent retire or even die doesn't, because we know those things happen. Furthermore you DON'T need to retire/kill Bond, we KNOW there's OTHER 00 agents around, we just don't see their adventures.

It's like killing Arthur in an Arthurian legends game and killing a G-Man in a gangbusters game and claiming both are the same.

I refuse to believe you're this dense.

I don't agree. You're claiming that James Bond is some run-of-the-mill schmoe that anyone could replace if they just some training - the equivalent of a random G-Man. I don't think that's what the Bond films portray. They make Bond out as a legendary hero. He doesn't have mystic powers, but he's uniquely competent and lucky.

Luke Skywalker is also a uniquely powerful character within his universe, but I don't see how that prevents playing a "what if" that he wasn't around.

Quote from: jhkim on March 02, 2023, 06:39:02 PM

I don't agree. You're claiming that James Bond is some run-of-the-mill schmoe that anyone could replace if they just some training - the equivalent of a random G-Man. I don't think that's what the Bond films portray. They make Bond out as a legendary hero. He doesn't have mystic powers, but he's uniquely competent and lucky.

Luke Skywalker is also a uniquely powerful character within his universe, but I don't see how that prevents playing a "what if" that he wasn't around.

I think what he is saying is that in some cases, the character's arc is central to what makes the story resonate.  The usual suggestion with canon used in an RPG is to pick a point, split off from there, and then let things develop as they will.  Whatever happened before Time X is still there.  Players can come to the table with that understanding.  Anything that happened after is up for grabs.

However, stories aren't games.  Characters that seem fated reach back into the older parts of the setting, and change it's feel.  Not just anyone can simply walk into Mordor carrying the ring.  Not just anyone can defeat/redeem Vader.  Whereas, there really isn't any fate or even very much before/after with the Bond stories.  There's a nod to the progression of the character with his marriage and how that works out, which carries through at least in the Fleming books and the later Connery films.  By the time Roger Moore comes along, there's been a reset in the franchise.

Another way to say it is that if you want to do Star Wars where Luke Skywalker doesn't kill Vader, then what you are really doing is "Alternate History" Star Wars where Luke isn't fated, maybe not Vader's son, possible a nobody that dies early, or maybe doesn't even exist.  It's now a completely different story set in the Star Wars universe.  That's possible, but a very different prospect from playing 006.

Quote from: jhkim on March 02, 2023, 06:39:02 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 02, 2023, 06:22:25 PM

Quote from: jhkim on March 02, 2023, 05:51:06 PM
I'm still stuck on the underlying difference here. Why is it OK for James Bond to retire because there are other agents who can take up the spy work -- but it's not OK for Luke Skywalker to be killed because there are other rebels who can take up the fight against the Empire?

Not ANYONE could turn Anakin back to the light side and defeat the Emperor.

Meanwhile in 007's universe as long as you have the training and pass the required tests ANYONE can be an agent and then become a 00 agent.

In Star Wars Killing Luke before the defeat/death of the Emperor BREAKS canon and throws me out of immersion.

In a spy game having one agent retire or even die doesn't, because we know those things happen. Furthermore you DON'T need to retire/kill Bond, we KNOW there's OTHER 00 agents around, we just don't see their adventures.

It's like killing Arthur in an Arthurian legends game and killing a G-Man in a gangbusters game and claiming both are the same.

I refuse to believe you're this dense.

I don't agree. You're claiming that James Bond is some run-of-the-mill schmoe that anyone could replace if they just some training - the equivalent of a random G-Man. I don't think that's what the Bond films portray. They make Bond out as a legendary hero. He doesn't have mystic powers, but he's uniquely competent and lucky.

Luke Skywalker is also a uniquely powerful character within his universe, but I don't see how that prevents playing a "what if" that he wasn't around.

You missed the part where I said that you can play in whatever way you want?

No, Bond isn't your average secret agent, he's a 00 agent he's 007, meaning there's 001, 002, 003, 004, 005 & 006 at the bare minimum running around. Given that we know there's not many agents with the 00 moniker we can safely assume that if you're one you're almost as good as Bond. We don't need no lame "What if" while pretending we're still playing in the same universe.

Take Deadlands, is it a western game? or is it a fantasy game with western aesthetics on top? You can't have the confederacy not loose and then tell me we're playing in the same universe. You have created a different universe.

Same with Star Wars, in universe ONLY Luke or Leia could turn Anakin back to the light. So for your not a skywalker character to be The Hero and defeat the emperor you had to kill 2 of the main protagonists, which throws ME out of immersion. But it's your table and your game, I'll just bounce and go play something I like.

Likewise I wouldn't run such a game BECAUSE I wouldn't enjoy it as a player or GM, I rather (if it HAS TO BE SW) play right AFTER the Empire's defeat in a world outside of the screen in the movies. Because it's the only time period that gives me the freedom to do whatever I want and not go against what is canon.

But like I have said before, you do you boo.

Quote from: Steven Mitchell on March 02, 2023, 06:51:44 PM

Quote from: jhkim on March 02, 2023, 06:39:02 PM

I don't agree. You're claiming that James Bond is some run-of-the-mill schmoe that anyone could replace if they just some training - the equivalent of a random G-Man. I don't think that's what the Bond films portray. They make Bond out as a legendary hero. He doesn't have mystic powers, but he's uniquely competent and lucky.

Luke Skywalker is also a uniquely powerful character within his universe, but I don't see how that prevents playing a "what if" that he wasn't around.

I think what he is saying is that in some cases, the character's arc is central to what makes the story resonate.  The usual suggestion with canon used in an RPG is to pick a point, split off from there, and then let things develop as they will.  Whatever happened before Time X is still there.  Players can come to the table with that understanding.  Anything that happened after is up for grabs.

However, stories aren't games.  Characters that seem fated reach back into the older parts of the setting, and change it's feel.  Not just anyone can simply walk into Mordor carrying the ring.  Not just anyone can defeat/redeem Vader.  Whereas, there really isn't any fate or even very much before/after with the Bond stories.  There's a nod to the progression of the character with his marriage and how that works out, which carries through at least in the Fleming books and the later Connery films.  By the time Roger Moore comes along, there's been a reset in the franchise.

Another way to say it is that if you want to do Star Wars where Luke Skywalker doesn't kill Vader, then what you are really doing is "Alternate History" Star Wars where Luke isn't fated, maybe not Vader's son, possible a nobody that dies early, or maybe doesn't even exist. It's now a completely different story set in the Star Wars universe.  That's possible, but a very different prospect from playing 006.

You got it almost to a T. Except it's not "completely different story set in the Star Wars universe", it's the exact same story in a universe that looks like but it's not the Star Wars Universe.

Where if you are playing AFTER the emperor's death then almost everything is up for grabs and YOU can be The Hero of the story, a new story, in the same universe, that no one knows where it will lead, so maybe you become a Sith or maybe you kill your friends, or a whole System. It's an open ended game, a sandbox no one knows what will happen.

Quote from: Bruwulf on March 02, 2023, 05:33:50 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 02, 2023, 05:15:08 PM
Star Wars, IF you want to kill Luke BEFORE he got into the Millenium Falcon it is canon breaking, stupid and unnecessary, you could play AFTER the Emperor's death with different characters in different adventures.

Your stupid and unnecessary is another person's fun and interesting. Alt history and alternate universe stores are pretty popular, last I checked.

It varies. On alternatehistory.com 90% of the fanfics are for Game of Thrones. After a while they get repetitive and blur together. I've read a half-dozen stories hinging on the horrifying revelation that the Stark's are descendants of the Night's Queen. In at least two of them, some of the Starks start the story as throwbacks to their Other heritage. It has its own tag: "otherblood starks". Last I remember anyhow. There's plenty other recurring fanfic tropes like that.

I only wish ttrpg writers were so creative

For licensed pen and paper RPGs based on relatively specific arcs, I think the truth has been available for a long ass time.  If the company that sells you the rules won't also sell you a huge set of adventures, you'll know your version of the world is a discount knock-off, instead of if you make up your own or use a template designed for the purpose.  The Star Wars d6 stuff is very well put together, has a lot of great expanded-universe content, and lets you play in a few different places.  Much of it got retconned away by Lucas himself though, as much of it used established EU lore for the emperor before he came to power, all of which contradicts the prequels.  So the moment Lucas turned and looked at the universe again, any story you were telling became crap outside of its own self.  What's the point of having a bunch of lore in books you pay for if it's going to get erased immediately?  To say nothing of Disney's insistence that only its latest extremely cucky canon is official, with all the EU stuff lumped together as "legacy", whereas previously there were different levels of canon so you could say to people on a forum "Ok this is set a decade after battle of Yavin and we are using C-canon for this timeline".

But enough about Star Wars, right?  Maybe their complete unwriting of bookshelves of cool shit is unique to them.  What about Warcraft?  That had a great d20 sourcebook that came out, and it was extremely respectful to the video game stuff, stepping around certain things that were obviously going to be explained in WoW at a later time.  It gave you a good explanation for everything that could be explained, everyone signed off on it- it was canon and you were good to go.

...Until you weren't.
Within a couple years, they had de-canonized the book and rewritten huge sections of stuff that happened before, retconning the games, the game manuals, and the book.  No attempt was made to patch this nor was any consideration given to the players of the mostly-defunct system.  Obviously, very few adventures were published.

Lesser sins were committed to players of Wheel of Time (unless you count the woke series, which no true fans do), Warhammer (though in fairness, new pen and paper versions come out, and their universe is vast enough that whatever you are doing is probably still canon), and likely others.

Then there's the fact that a lot of the game systems just jam whatever bespoke system the developer favors into it, making cursory attempts to fit key mechanics or concepts into it.  The Essence system, used for Power Rangers, GI Joe, and Transformers, is a great example, with it being a pretty good fit for GI Joe and a terrible fit for Transformers.  Jamming everything into d20 was a big trend in the 2000s, which isn't inherently ruinous but the level based system really isn't appropriate to tell stories in every universe.  You didn't strictly need that for a d20 system, by any means, but many simply did it anyway.

Still, if you're following some particular fandom and a pen and paper RPG comes out, there's no way you don't buy it, and there's no way you don't run like a year's worth of stuff out of it.  And I can provide my own guess as to why, to actually answer the question OP posed; it's because it provides a focal point for people who are into the fictional world to all congregate around.  Fans of any given thing will follow anything that moves, and an officially licensed RPG is definitely moving.  This is likely why so many people have good stories about fun times in a barely defined system from several years ago- they were all in a virtual room with a bunch of people hyped for the same thing, and they were given the parts to assemble a cool playground, and they did a good enough job to have a great time.

Quote from: Bruwulf on March 02, 2023, 05:33:50 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 02, 2023, 05:15:08 PM
Star Wars, IF you want to kill Luke BEFORE he got into the Millenium Falcon it is canon breaking, stupid and unnecessary, you could play AFTER the Emperor's death with different characters in different adventures.

Your stupid and unnecessary is another person's fun and interesting. Alt history and alternate universe stores are pretty popular, last I checked.

And your fun and interesting is another person's stupid and unnecessary. Alt-History and Alternate Universes are pretty popular, and billions of flies eat shit. You're not making any argument, furthermore I'm only stating MY tastes, which you find offensive.

Quote from: Bruwulf on March 02, 2023, 05:33:50 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 02, 2023, 05:15:08 PMNotice that in each case you're pretty much using the universe and the rules to play not the IP. Which to me is the same as having a more generic Sword & Sorcery, High Fantasy, Espionage, Space Opera, Sci-Fi, etc setting with no actual ties to ANY IP.

But some people want those ties. Just because I'm not following Luke Skywalker around like a torchbearer doesn't mean I'm not a Jedi, or not fighting the Empire, or in the Clone Wars, or something else.

Could I be a Star Knight, in touch with the Cosmic Essence, wielding a plasma saber, jumping through phase-space, fighting the Stellar Hegemony? Sure, I could design that game in any number of systems on my shelf... Or I could just pull my old WEG Star Wars books down off the shelf, and have it all done for me, and not feel like I'm playing the knockoff Chinese bootleg totally-not-Star Wars.

Yes, you're a hero, not The Hero, this doesn't deboonk my point. By all means have at it, I won't play that, which shouldn't diminish your fun in any way shape or form.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 02, 2023, 09:34:48 PM
And your fun and interesting is another person's stupid and unnecessary. Alt-History and Alternate Universes are pretty popular, and billions of flies eat shit. You're not making any argument, furthermore I'm only stating MY tastes, which you find offensive.

I don't give a shit what stupid game you play or how insufferably dull and unimaginative your tastes are. Until you start being a horse's ass about it. Like I just was to you.

It just doesn't seem conducive to honest discussion of an issue to just blithely declare one side of the argument "stupid and unnecessary".

Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 02, 2023, 09:34:48 PMYes, you're a hero, not The Hero, this doesn't deboonk my point. By all means have at it, I won't play that, which shouldn't diminish your fun in any way shape or form.

You capitalizing the word one time and not the other doesn't actually make the two terms different. Setting aside that most RPGs expect group play, which makes there being a singular "The Hero" inherently difficult, players are The Hero of their own stories. A universe has room for more than one hero, more than one story. Universes are big.

How many people seriously buy a licensed setting to just retell the same story as in the movie they watched, or read in the book? I'm sure some, perhaps, but I seriously question if that's the majority.

Quote from: Bruwulf on March 02, 2023, 10:11:41 PM
A universe has room for more than one hero, more than one story. Universes are big.

How many people seriously buy a licensed setting to just retell the same story as in the movie they watched, or read in the book? I'm sure some, perhaps, but I seriously question if that's the majority.

I don't think all universes are big, at least as the interesting things about that universe go.  When Star Wars came out, they made it pretty clear that there weren't any Jedi left- it was a rather salient point of the movie.  Years later, we've seen that every canon stretches that.  Suddenly every corner of the universe not watching Obi-Wan is full of force users of varying power, all conveniently not present during the actions of the main trilogy, as such people would have definitely shown up to fight a death star (or two).

Similarly, in a wheel of time game, there's only so much space for Aes Sedai to be hanging around far away from the main characters, though it's much more defensible as a setting when compared to Star Wars.  Most settings don't leave room for anyone else to be doing The Cool Thing except for the main characters, after all.

Many settings do a full wrapup once things are done, allowing for no meaningful other adventures.  This, at least, does not plague Star Wars.

Quote from: Venka on March 02, 2023, 10:19:23 PM

I don't think all universes are big, at least as the interesting things about that universe go.  When Star Wars came out, they made it pretty clear that there weren't any Jedi left- it was a rather salient point of the movie.  Years later, we've seen that every canon stretches that.  Suddenly every corner of the universe not watching Obi-Wan is full of force users of varying power, all conveniently not present during the actions of the main trilogy, as such people would have definitely shown up to fight a death star (or two).

Well, sure. Aliens was already mentioned... Once you get past the signature monster, there's not really anything to the setting. Yeah, you could roleplay being Weyland-Yutani colonists, or space marines, or something... But your options are either keep finding ways to make the one, singular thing that makes the Aliens universe interesting, well, interesting... Or else to play an absolutely generic sci-fi setting that has nothing that sets it apart from any other.

Star Wars, like a lot of settings, really wasn't very fleshed out. Taking just the first (only) three movies, we have a lot of questions. Was being a Jedi just something you learned? Was it hereditary? What did it mean to say there were no more Jedi? Did all Jedi vanish and become force ghosts when they died? What was the real nature of a Jedi's powers? We didn't know any of that. So of course it was one of the first things people started to explore in fan fictions, and later of course in roleplaying games.

We also didn't know how big the universe was, or how wide the Empire was. Hell, other than some borrowed Nazi iconography and the fact they were willing to destroy a planet to make a point, we really didn't even know anything about the Empire. So, of course, those were other topics that got explored a lot.

But the point here, there were these questions, and they were interesting concepts to explore and made for interesting potential characters... And when the Star Wars RPG came out, WEG was really good about *answering* those questions, even if only within the scope of their personal game canon. They took a universe that was almost infinite in potential scope, but not really well developed, and developed it. And in doing so, they spread the universe wide open for people to tell their own stories and be their own big damned heroes.

Quote from: Venka on March 02, 2023, 10:19:23 PMSimilarly, in a wheel of time game, there's only so much space for Aes Sedai to be hanging around far away from the main characters, though it's much more defensible as a setting when compared to Star Wars.  Most settings don't leave room for anyone else to be doing The Cool Thing except for the main characters, after all.

True enough to an extent, if you're not willing to do anything like running an alt-history game, or setting the game in an earlier time period, or something.

But, again, I don't think most people buy into licensed settings to just play characters operating in the shadows of the canon heroes. I think they're looking at the setting as a pre-developed toybox. They want to play with the cool toys. They want to be a jedi, or an Aes Sedai, or to have adventures in the Nevernever, or whatever elements make those settings unique. They want to tell their own stories that are similar to the existing ones, but aren't just... copying them, or hanging out with the main characters like some sort of bizarre imaginary club.

Quote from: Bruwulf on March 02, 2023, 10:11:41 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 02, 2023, 09:34:48 PM
And your fun and interesting is another person's stupid and unnecessary. Alt-History and Alternate Universes are pretty popular, and billions of flies eat shit. You're not making any argument, furthermore I'm only stating MY tastes, which you find offensive.

I don't give a shit what stupid game you play or how insufferably dull and unimaginative your tastes are. Until you start being a horse's ass about it. Like I just was to you.

It just doesn't seem conducive to honest discussion of an issue to just blithely declare one side of the argument "stupid and unnecessary".

Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 02, 2023, 09:34:48 PMYes, you're a hero, not The Hero, this doesn't deboonk my point. By all means have at it, I won't play that, which shouldn't diminish your fun in any way shape or form.

You capitalizing the word one time and not the other doesn't actually make the two terms different. Setting aside that most RPGs expect group play, which makes there being a singular "The Hero" inherently difficult, players are The Hero of their own stories. A universe has room for more than one hero, more than one story. Universes are big.

How many people seriously buy a licensed setting to just retell the same story as in the movie they watched, or read in the book? I'm sure some, perhaps, but I seriously question if that's the majority.

The Heroes are the protagonists, the main characters. meanwhile some heroes are secondary or tertiary characters, not the main protagonists, which makes it totally different.

You seem to not have read or misunderstood where I say that you could play (in star wars case) AFTER the death of the Emperor, that's not re-telling the same story, is it?

Doing that means you're not worried about what The Main Protagonists are doing and if your actions will affect them.

Of course if you just declare that this is a different universe then you can do whatever (something I already said too), b ut that's not the same universe, it's an alternate one.

Like I already said, you can't declare the Confederates didn't loose the Secession war and pretend it's the same universe, it's not.

You can't have ghostrock and pretend is the same universe where that doesn't exist.

You can't kill of Luke and pretend it's the same universe.

If that's what floats your boat have at it, I'll go play in the real Star Wars Universe AFTER the Emperor was defeated and be the main character and not a third row extra.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 02, 2023, 11:03:02 PM
The Heroes are the protagonists, the main characters. meanwhile some heroes are secondary or tertiary characters, not the main protagonists, which makes it totally different.

Only if they're in the same story. Not the same universe, the same story. Odysseus is not somehow not the protagonist of The Odyssey, just because Achilles was the protagonist of The Iliad, set in the same basic "universe". And I could run a game set in mythological ancient Greece, a setting where both characters existed, and have my characters tell their own stories of which they are the protagonist.

If I run a game in the Star Wars universe, I'm not going to be telling Luke's story. That story has been told. My players would be the protagonist of the story they and I are telling, not somehow philosophically relegated to being Luke's Short Round or something.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 02, 2023, 11:03:02 PMYou seem to not have read or misunderstood where I say that you could play (in star wars case) AFTER the death of the Emperor, that's not re-telling the same story, is it?

Literally what is there to comment on that statement? It's self-evidently true. Although maybe not these days... whether you take into account the original EU or the new Disneyslop EU, unless you just freeze your Star Wars as being wholly contained in the first three movies, you can't really say that - there's still going to be other protagonists telling other stories at the same time that you're apparently "competing" with or something.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 02, 2023, 11:03:02 PMDoing that means you're not worried about what The Main Protagonists are doing and if your actions will affect them.

Never have been.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 02, 2023, 11:03:02 PMOf course if you just declare that this is a different universe then you can do whatever (something I already said too), b ut that's not the same universe, it's an alternate one.

I suppose, in a sense. I would argue that "an alternative universe" would be literally any game played in an RPG of a licensed setting, and that's what most players want and expect. Regardless of if you go so far as to massively rewrite canon or not.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 02, 2023, 11:03:02 PMLike I already said, you can't declare the Confederates didn't loose the Secession war and pretend it's the same universe, it's not.

You can't have ghostrock and pretend is the same universe where that doesn't exist.

You can't kill of Luke and pretend it's the same universe.

I think what we're running into here is two similar, but not exactly parallel, definitions of "universe".

To use Star Trek as an example, Star Trek has had several stories with either alternate timelines or alternate universes. And I'm not even talking things like the so-called Abrams-verse or whatever, I mean even within one single series... You have the Mirror universe, time travel shenanigans, Q screwing around with things, and what have you.

Lets say I wanted to run a game set entirely in a Mirror Universe Star Trek setting. Am I still running it in the "Star Trek Universe"? By one definition, no, clearly not. By another definition, I would argue, yes.

No, if you want slavish devotion to exactly the story as written with no deviation, it won't suit you. But I don't think that's why most people buy or play licensed settings. As I aid, it's not "I want to be an actor in an amateur theater production of A New Hope", it's "I want to take a big ol' box of Star Wars toys and run around waving a lightsaber and going pew pew at evil bounty hunters with my friendly droid sidekick!".

For those purposes, it doesn't *matter* what Luke is doing, or if he's alive at all. His story is not your story. *He* doesn't *matter*. 

Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 02, 2023, 11:03:02 PM
If that's what floats your boat have at it, I'll go play in the real Star Wars Universe AFTER the Emperor was defeated and be the main character and not a third row extra.

You aren't playing in the "real" Star Wars setting unless you're getting paid by the mouse. And if you aren't the protagonist of your own stories, you need a new GM.

Bugle's understanding of what is the "real" universe is closer to my own.  If you are adding in a non-contradictory way to the canon events, then you are in the "real" fictional universe.  If you are changing them (for instance, if you assassinate Boba Fett as he emerges from the Sarlacc), then your universe isn't compatible with the "real" one in the fiction.

Basically if you say "my universe here is just like Frank Herbert's Dune, except we are having adventures on Caladan after the Atreides leave", then that's pretty much in the "real" Dune universe, because nothing you are doing contradicts with what goes on in the books, and your characters might even get a chance to react to the events in the greater world as they unfold.

I get that you can say that everything that adds or subtracts isn't the "real" universe, but honestly, I just don't believe it.  If everything in the source documents is true for your game world, then you are 100% in their universe.  And if you tell a story in a given Star Wars canon, then yours is just as official as Disney's, and it cost you a billion dollars less for that legitimacy.

I guess my Grey Box/Bloodstone Lands Forgotten Realms game with no 'Time of Troubles' isn't the 'real' Forgotten Realms.  One thing I noticed though was that even using only material from the first couple years of FR, there are a ton of contradictions in the material, so I still have to decide what to use IMC. I think this is true of pretty well all official universes - the James Bond setting may have more than the Star Wars setting, but neither is consistent. The GM always has to decide what to use - and in doing so, engage in a creative act.

Quote from: Steven Mitchell on March 02, 2023, 06:51:44 PM
Characters that seem fated reach back into the older parts of the setting, and change it's feel.  Not just anyone can simply walk into Mordor carrying the ring.  Not just anyone can defeat/redeem Vader.  Whereas, there really isn't any fate or even very much before/after with the Bond stories.  There's a nod to the progression of the character with his marriage and how that works out, which carries through at least in the Fleming books and the later Connery films.  By the time Roger Moore comes along, there's been a reset in the franchise.

Another way to say it is that if you want to do Star Wars where Luke Skywalker doesn't kill Vader, then what you are really doing is "Alternate History" Star Wars where Luke isn't fated, maybe not Vader's son, possible a nobody that dies early, or maybe doesn't even exist.  It's now a completely different story set in the Star Wars universe.  That's possible, but a very different prospect from playing 006.

I'm trying to follow along, but I'm not sure what the core is for you. I agree that it's an "Alternate History" Star Wars if Luke isn't around. But I don't understand why it is not an "Alternate History" if James Bond isn't around. As I see it, any major change to the canon of the universe would mean that we're in an alternate history.

You imply that having mystic fate involved is a key to this. Luke is fated to defeat the Emperor, and Frodo is fated to defeat Sauron. So is this only an issue in universes with mystic fate? It seems to me a bigger feature is that while James Bond canon has a dozen or more mostly-unrelated storylines, Middle Earth is dominated by one storyline (Lord of the Rings) and Star Wars is arguably dominated by one storyline (the original trilogy).

What I'm not sure is how does this apply to other licenses? Playing the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles RPG if the canonical turtles didn't exist? Playing the Elric RPG without Elric or the Conan RPG without Conan? Dresden Files RPG without Harry Dresden?

Quote from: Venka on March 03, 2023, 01:34:18 AM
Bugle's understanding of what is the "real" universe is closer to my own.  If you are adding in a non-contradictory way to the canon events, then you are in the "real" fictional universe.  If you are changing them (for instance, if you assassinate Boba Fett as he emerges from the Sarlacc), then your universe isn't compatible with the "real" one in the fiction.

Basically if you say "my universe here is just like Frank Herbert's Dune, except we are having adventures on Caladan after the Atreides leave", then that's pretty much in the "real" Dune universe, because nothing you are doing contradicts with what goes on in the books, and your characters might even get a chance to react to the events in the greater world as they unfold.

I get that you can say that everything that adds or subtracts isn't the "real" universe, but honestly, I just don't believe it.  If everything in the source documents is true for your game world, then you are 100% in their universe.  And if you tell a story in a given Star Wars canon, then yours is just as official as Disney's, and it cost you a billion dollars less for that legitimacy.

This seems like a spectrum to me. Changing things is more likely to shift away from canon, but consider two hypotheticals:

1) A game set after the Emperor's death fighting the remnants of the Empire, where the *only* change is that Boba Fett dies in the Sarlacc.

2) A military action game set purely on a particular water world in the Old Republic era. Neither the world nor the inhabitants are in the canon, but there are thousands of worlds in canon, and nothing about this one contradicts the canon.

If most of the RPG campaign is all about source material that isn't in the canon, then how much does it really matter that the world is in the same universe as Star Wars? If there's no starships, no fight against the Empire and no Jedi, it isn't going to feel like Star Wars even if it technically fits into the universe.