This question hit me in part, because of my latest rpg purchases.

I'm pretty selective in my gaming dollar nowadays. I'm no collector (refuse to pay collector prices for stuff, like even really really bad TSR products on the ebay is horrible).

So I buy stuff that interests me. What I've picked up lately, even though they're no longer in print, is the Solomon Kane rpg by peginc. (I bought the core book and monster book). But of course they're out of print.

I've had this thought over the years of like, oh who's got Lord of the Rings IP today? Oh, who has Conan? The problem is a company always loses the rights to produce gaming stuff (license runs out, whatever). So if you come to the party late, good luck finding stuff (I'd love to find ICE Merp stuff inexpensive......but.....)

The thing is is that I have been able to hack my D&D game over the years with media I really like so I really don't need an official licensed product. And it's been damn fun had by all (for example, I hacked in David Edding's Church Knights easily enough).

So why do we buy it? Do companies make good money off of licensed stuff (I remember when Margaret Weis Productions seemed to license everything)?

Are there certain games you feel just couldn't be hacked into your favorite rpg?

Thanks for any participation, I appreciate it.

There was a long stretch--perhaps best epitomized by MERP and WEG Star Wars--where the licensed RPGs were your best source for new background material for your favorite worlds. I don't think fandom was as concerned with 'canon' so much then, perhaps because a lot of those worlds were also dead or dormant outside of their RPG spinoffs.

Nowadays, with wikis, systemless reference books, and the like, this niche is no longer as relevant. But it was a major driver for a long time.

Quote from: Armchair Gamer on March 01, 2023, 10:55:30 AM
There was a long stretch--perhaps best epitomized by MERP and WEG Star Wars--where the licensed RPGs were your best source for new background material for your favorite worlds. I don't think fandom was as concerned with 'canon' so much then, perhaps because a lot of those worlds were also dead or dormant outside of their RPG spinoffs.

Nowadays, with wikis, systemless reference books, and the like, this niche is no longer as relevant. But it was a major driver for a long time.

That's a good point of consideration I hadn't thought about. My first thought is, but didn't the game designers just make stuff up whole cloth? Or were there like setting bibles they had to adhere to? Was the MERP stuff limited by certain published works (I'm ignorant on that sorry).

I have always wondered why as expensive as licenses can be and how little money there really is in designing game material (with the hours put in, etc) how licensed games can be worthwhile.

I don't buy licensed games because they are licensed.  It drags in canon that often isn't helpful.  It means a big chunk of budget went to the license instead of game design, development, or testing.  And let's get real, given how that works, and the relatively short timeline for a license, it's the testing that often suffers the most. 

I think Armchair Gamer is correct about the earlier appeal.  The success of the various GURPS source books kind of backs up that point.  No idea on the percentage, but there were people who bought those source books with no intention of playing them in GURPS.  You see the same thing with some of the "historical" lines in D&D and Design Mechanism's "Mythic .." series.  Heck, I suspect that the Harn line stays in business off of sales to people with no intention of using those books in the Harn system.  I'm sure there are more examples.  Point being, the "source book" was either not licensed or barely licensed for that book--not tying the fate of the whole game line to the license.

The biggest counter example, of course, is the WEG Star Wars games.  We'll never know what could have been had an errant shoe company fiasco not happened.

Quote from: Steven Mitchell on March 01, 2023, 11:40:59 AM
I don't buy licensed games because they are licensed.  It drags in canon that often isn't helpful.  It means a big chunk of budget went to the license instead of game design, development, or testing.  And let's get real, given how that works, and the relatively short timeline for a license, it's the testing that often suffers the most. 

I think Armchair Gamer is correct about the earlier appeal.  The success of the various GURPS source books kind of backs up that point.  No idea on the percentage, but there were people who bought those source books with no intention of playing them in GURPS.  You see the same thing with some of the "historical" lines in D&D and Design Mechanism's "Mythic .." series.  Heck, I suspect that the Harn line stays in business off of sales to people with no intention of using those books in the Harn system.  I'm sure there are more examples.  Point being, the "source book" was either not licensed or barely licensed for that book--not tying the fate of the whole game line to the license.

The biggest counter example, of course, is the WEG Star Wars games.  We'll never know what could have been had an errant shoe company fiasco not happened.

True for me I could hit some wikis and webpages, get setting information and run it in (for example) Savage Worlds which I know and love) and is easy to covert things into.  No need to buy a $60 0r $70 book I really dont need.

Quote from: Thorn Drumheller on March 01, 2023, 11:02:41 AM
That's a good point of consideration I hadn't thought about. My first thought is, but didn't the game designers just make stuff up whole cloth? Or were there like setting bibles they had to adhere to?

WEG made up a ton of Star Wars stuff that made its way into permanent canon. You see it in eg Andor with the ISB.

Quote from: Steven Mitchell on March 01, 2023, 11:40:59 AM
I don't buy licensed games because they are licensed.  It drags in canon that often isn't helpful.  It means a big chunk of budget went to the license instead of game design, development, or testing.  And let's get real, given how that works, and the relatively short timeline for a license, it's the testing that often suffers the most. 

I think Armchair Gamer is correct about the earlier appeal.  The success of the various GURPS source books kind of backs up that point.  No idea on the percentage, but there were people who bought those source books with no intention of playing them in GURPS.  You see the same thing with some of the "historical" lines in D&D and Design Mechanism's "Mythic .." series.  Heck, I suspect that the Harn line stays in business off of sales to people with no intention of using those books in the Harn system.  I'm sure there are more examples.  Point being, the "source book" was either not licensed or barely licensed for that book--not tying the fate of the whole game line to the license.

The biggest counter example, of course, is the WEG Star Wars games.  We'll never know what could have been had an errant shoe company fiasco not happened.

Yeah, I get ya. I stay away from licensed stuff, unless I want it for whatever reason (like my latest purchase).

I don't want to play in Star Wars, I'd much rather play a Stars Without Numbers with SW elements. I don't want to play in Middle-earth, I'd rather steal what I like and put it in my D&D game.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying if you had a great middle-earth game using TOR rules you're bad wrong...more power to you. But that has zero appeal to me.

Quote from: Thorn Drumheller on March 01, 2023, 10:53:04 AM
So why do we buy it? Do companies make good money off of licensed stuff (I remember when Margaret Weis Productions seemed to license everything)?

Are there certain games you feel just couldn't be hacked into your favorite rpg?

It implied here that licensed RPG designs aren't as good, and that one's favorite RPG is unlicensed. But some of my favorite RPG designs are licensed. Sometimes a good designer can put their best work into trying to make a system that works well for a given property. I can think of a few examples.

1) Call of Cthulhu (1980). This technically took from RuneQuest, but it was a thorough redesign that is still probably the leading horror RPG.

2) The James Bond 007 RPG system (1983). This is a terrific system that puts quality of success front and center. It has a great implementation of Hero Points and chases in particular.

3) The Star Wars D6 system (1987). This is the great cinematic pulp action system. (Technically it started with the lesser-known Ghostbusters RPG, but that was also licensed.)

4) The Buffy the Vampire Slayer RPG system (2002). This was called the "Cinematic Unisystem". Some mechanics are taken from the Unisystem of Carella's Witchcraft RPG, but there are a ton of changes that not only streamline it but changed the focus and tone to give a cinematic feel.


While #1 and #4 were technically based on pre-existing non-licensed RPGs, they were far more than just adaptations like a GURPS book. The adapted system supplanted the original because of how well it was adapted. I'd play all of these purely on the strength of the game design, not because of the license. I'd also give a shout-out to the TSR Marvel Superheroes RPG (aka FASERIP).

James Bond was based on Dragon Quest.  It's even some of the same people working on it.  Arguably, you could back fill the JB rules into DQ and make it a better game.

Quote from: Steven Mitchell on March 01, 2023, 12:55:12 PM
James Bond was based on Dragon Quest.  It's even some of the same people working on it.  Arguably, you could back fill the JB rules into DQ and make it a better game.

Interesting. I didn't know that.

Do you know if there were non-licensed forebearers to Ghostbusters or Marvel Superheroes/FASERIP? As far as I know, they weren't directly adapted from anything except in the same way that essentially all RPGs draw from previous RPGs.

I buy "licensed" games sometimes, but not because of the license. Rather, it's because I like the setting.

To me, the benefit to a "licensed" game is that you have a wider scope of lore: movies, books, cultural references, whatever. The more options you have, the easier it is to get a sense of the setting.

I'm putting "licensed" in quotes because the game doesn't have to be officially licensed to gain this benefit.

I'm running Hyperborea at the moment. Part of my prep is listening to a ton of Clark Ashton Smith stories in audiobook format. The setting is based on his work (but not licensed AFAIK) and I have limited time to sit down and read, so listening while driving is super convenient.

Quote from: jhkim on March 01, 2023, 12:59:48 PM
Interesting. I didn't know that.

Do you know if there were non-licensed forebearers to Ghostbusters or Marvel Superheroes/FASERIP? As far as I know, they weren't directly adapted from anything except in the same way that essentially all RPGs draw from previous RPGs.

All I know about the FASERIP line of design is what I've learned from you guys here.   My superheroes phase was all Champions, and I just don't do it enough to learn something new.  Haven't done a superheroes game in over 20 years.

Quote from: Thorn Drumheller on March 01, 2023, 11:02:41 AM
That's a good point of consideration I hadn't thought about. My first thought is, but didn't the game designers just make stuff up whole cloth? Or were there like setting bibles they had to adhere to? Was the MERP stuff limited by certain published works (I'm ignorant on that sorry).

Well, certainly to some extent. I know less about MERP, but I know WEG Star Wars just sorta became part of the EU, and to some extent it was reciprocal Some of the stuff that originated in the RPG would find its way into the EU in other places.

Ultimately, though, to me the question is really no different than "what do you play more than one system?" It's the same basic answer - because I don't think one system suits every game type. Sure, I *can* hack D&D to run a moden supernatural vampire game, but it's probably not my best bet.

Glad to see the WEG Star Wars comments...that game most likely, quite literally, saved that entire franchise. Best roleplaying game ever made based on one of the best movie series ever made, so it worked about as well as possible. Had the game sucked ass I doubt we would have heard much more about SW, but thankfully it was the ultimate marriage of system and atmosphere.

That "errant shoe company fiasco" is something I found out way after the fact. I kept wondering how a company that made some of the best products in the industry ever went out of business, but now I know.