I have no problem with Gary changing his views on things as time went on. The gaming hobby certainly hasn't been static since the "Man to Man" and "Fantasy Supplement" rules were added to Chainmail.

We (meaning the players I knew) may have thought Gary was being a pompous ass when he wrote certain statements, but that didn't stop us from playing the hell out of his game.

I don't play AD&D anymore, but I don't apologize for having played it back in the day, nor for having fond memories of playing. And I still proudly play RPGs. I am even teaching my kids to play a D&D based game.

Quote from: cranebump;852545Gosh, do I not want to get into this, but my first thought is: shouldn't Gary be held accountable for being Gary, whether he's in corporate garb or not? My second thought is: like all of us, Gary is allowed to change, or reinforce his views. We're all in a constant state of revision, aren't we?

Certainly, and I said as much.

When reading Hawk & Moor, Playing at the World, and the anecdotes on the forums. I got to wondering why Gary changed his tone from OD&D to AD&D. The stereotype of "corporate" Gary has been around a long time and the stereotype didn't hold up when you dug deeper. Yet he wrote what he wrote in the DMG and the Sorcerer's Scroll column before, during, and after writing AD&D.

When after reading everything put out so far, my impression that Gary Gygax and the rest of TSR had a similar situation to when a forum or blog suddenly gets a 100 or 1,000 time more traffic. What works for a loose community of dozens of people no longer works when thousands are involved. In D&D cased it mushroomed into hundreds of thousands and then millions later.

Overall I think Gary and his staff did the best they could and produced some brilliant work within AD&D. Unfortunately along with that came the stuff that produced the stereotype of corporate Gary. And from personal experience in running gaming organizations there are times when the best or prudent course make, the person in charge look like a dick to some. In AD&D case were the pronouncements that when you use the rules of the book you have to run them as written or you are not running a AD&D campaign.

After his run at TSR was done his public image changed to be more like the Gary who wrote OD&D since he no longer had to deal with the stuff he had to deal with at TSR.

The DM/OD&D Gary -> "Corporate"/AD&D Gary thing is basically tragic, to me.

I mean in AD&D & doing promos He was all, "do it this way or else". Back in OD&D He was basically The opposite, all "add whatever you want, do whatever you want with it, make it YOUR game!:)"

What happened!?

Quote from: The Ent;852621The DM/OD&D Gary -> "Corporate"/AD&D Gary thing is basically tragic, to me.

I mean in AD&D & doing promos He was all, "do it this way or else". Back in OD&D He was basically The opposite, all "add whatever you want, do whatever you want with it, make it YOUR game!:)"

What happened!?

A bunch of third party published made a ton of money, and TSR wanted to keep ahold of as much of the pie as they could from that point on.

Quote from: The Ent;852621I mean in AD&D & doing promos He was all, "do it this way or else". Back in OD&D He was basically The opposite, all "add whatever you want, do whatever you want with it, make it YOUR game!:)"

What happened!?

I wouldn't say he did a complete 180, Phillip, Omega are right in that a lot of his advice about designing CAMPAIGNS was still about doing what you want and make it fun and interesting. I feel Gygax designed many parts of AD&D as toolkit to make this happen.

Where he changed was on specific rules. For example level progression, combat, etc. And the main reason I believe for the change was not because TSR was upset that Third party companies were making a buck off of TSR*
but rather they were being bombarded with a deluge of questions about rules and requests for rulings.

At first glance a person would go "Well that comes with the territory of publishing a popular game." And yes that it is true, but with OD&D the impression I got that it was really that bad. And it can't be all blamed on OD&D organization either. RPGs are meant to be far more flexible than boardgame or a wargame and since OD&D was the first of it's kind naturally it would generate a lot more questions compared to something like a Avalon Hill or SPI wargame of similar popularity. But in conjunction with OD&D poor organization (as compared to later products) it produced a perfect storm that lead Gygax adopting the tone of "The rules you use must as written or it isn't AD&D."

Was that right approach? Who knows. We are sitting 30 years later with the benefit of hindsight. My opinion is that given the circumstances I think it was a reasonable thing to do. That the idea of corporate Gygax being greedy and arrogant was a false one although understandable why it came about.

In the end it didn't effect the popularity of AD&D because the stuff about campaign design was pure gold and vastly overshadowed the hectoring tones of a few section of the books. And while there were a few rules clunkers again the vast majority of rules were done right and done well making AD&D THE version of classic D&D for millions.

And recognize that the image of corporate Gary is a hot button issue for many especially because in later years Gygax got involved again with the wider community through the internet and turned out to be a pretty nice guy, who ran fun campaigns, and frankly was a genius at what he did.

*Third party D&D products was an issue for TSR but something that was separate from the genesis of AD&D.

Quote from: The Ent;852621The DM/OD&D Gary -> "Corporate"/AD&D Gary thing is basically tragic, to me.

I mean in AD&D & doing promos He was all, "do it this way or else". Back in OD&D He was basically The opposite, all "add whatever you want, do whatever you want with it, make it YOUR game!:)"

What happened!?

"CORPORATION"

By law the officers of a corporation are obliged to work to maximize shareholder wealth, or face legal penalties.

Corporate Gary represented what the market paid for.  Most people WANTED things nailed down; remember, within months of the little brown books TSR got letters that eventually turned into a flood, all wanting more precise rules.

If the corporation had stayed Gary and his childhood friend Don Kaye things might have gone differently.  Or perhaps not... as sales started to skyrocket, money is a real lure.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;852718"CORPORATION"

By law the officers of a corporation are obliged to work to maximize shareholder wealth, or face legal penalties.

Corporate Gary represented what the market paid for.  Most people WANTED things nailed down; remember, within months of the little brown books TSR got letters that eventually turned into a flood, all wanting more precise rules.

If the corporation had stayed Gary and his childhood friend Don Kaye things might have gone differently.  Or perhaps not... as sales started to skyrocket, money is a real lure.

That actually makes an awful lot of sense. It still kind of sucks, but it makes me feel better about than if it was just Gary becoming a big jerk, which was my impression at the time.

When the general public will not shut the hell up about wanting more detailed rules and plea, nay DEMAND to pay money to be told what to do step by step while playing a game of the imagination, what was Gery supposed to do?

He did what anyone with half a brain would do- he accepted their money and gave them what they wanted. Anyone who could blame him for that probably has never had that kind of cash thrown in their face.

Oh my stars and garters you kids in this thread.

Quote from: thedungeondelver;852955Oh my stars and garters you kids in this thread.

Gamers: Humna, humna, humna
Gronan: I was there.
Gamers: Humna, humna, humna
Gronan: Tongue my peehole
Gamers: Humna, humna, humna
Gronan: Just make up some shit you think is fun
Gamers: Have you ever played AD&D?
Gronan: Humna, humna, humna...Kreigspeil!

Quote from: Exploderwizard;852728When the general public will not shut the hell up about wanting more detailed rules and plea, nay DEMAND to pay money to be told what to do step by step while playing a game of the imagination, what was Gery supposed to do?

He did what anyone with half a brain would do- he accepted their money and gave them what they wanted. Anyone who could blame him for that probably has never had that kind of cash thrown in their face.

And it was a really shocking amount of money.

In 1972 or 1973 Don Lowry wanted Gary Gygax to come work for Guidon Games.  The fact that a miniatures wargame company could actually hire somebody made them a major player.

By 1976 TSR sales were $300,000 and they doubled the next year.  It was like they had the proverbial license to print money.

Quote from: Kellri;853280Gamers: Humna, humna, humna
Gronan: I was there.
Gamers: Humna, humna, humna
Gronan: Tongue my peehole
Gamers: Humna, humna, humna
Gronan: Just make up some shit you think is fun
Gamers: Have you ever played AD&D?
Gronan: Humna, humna, humna...Kreigspeil!

Hehehehe...(sigh) Yep...

Quote from: cranebump;853328Hehehehe...(sigh) Yep...

I have built an express lane to my peehole for your tongue.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;853334I have built an express lane to my peehole for your tongue.

You should seriously consider writing for the gay porn industry, if you haven't already. You've got a singular talent for fellatio references that needn't go to waste.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;852718"CORPORATION"

By law the officers of a corporation are obliged to work to maximize shareholder wealth, or face legal penalties.

Mind tangent, but this is not true of all corporations. Benefit corporations (or B-corporations) are a type of private corporation that was created specifically to allow corporate officers to also work for the public good alongside pursuing profits, without facing legal penalties for doing so.