Quote from: Kellri;845389One thing about gamers who hate it...every day they're talking about how to convert something from 1e to whatever later edition they think is better while I've never heard a 1e gamer ask how to do the opposite.

That because up to the early 2000s, AD&D 1st was pretty much down to the diehards who loved it for it own sake. Then afterwards it started growing again with a better educated fanbase along with a bunch of authors, including you, who were adept at explaining or making useful products for the game.

You know, people don't have to be trendy hipsters to dislike AD&D. I've played it more than any other RPG, but when I have a choice these days I play another version of D&D. The butthurt over gamers criticizing AD&D is just as childish as claiming only the newest games are any good. One form of resentful nerdfury doesn't cancel out another, it only adds to the nerdfury in the hobby.

After about twenty years not playing or refereeing any RPGs, I've recently dusted off my AD&D 2E material and introduced it to my two pre-teen kids.  To my surprise and delight, they love it and I hope that, even if they don't pursue the hobby beyond something they do with their dad every Sunday afternoon, they still remember the experience as something that was pure fun.  At which point I shall no doubt put the books back into the loft and return to the wilderness!

D&D got me into the hobby.  I went on to AD&D 2E and once I discovered Ravenloft my players never went anywhere else!  The game worked for me then and it works for me now.  I see no problem with it

(Nice to be here, by the way.  I've been out of the RPG loop for so long and, even if I don't know half the games that everyone's talking about here, it's just nice to contribute to a forum about a subject that I love so much.)

I don't apologize for AD&D, I just avoid it. We played it because it was what we had. better came along and I never looked back. Some of the setting material is still good. The rules though were a mess. So many walls. I preferred 3E and I now prefer Pathfinder. I'm not looking for 'new & shiny' (Pathfinder is hardly new), I am looking for what works for me.

Quote from: estar;845511That because up to the early 2000s, AD&D 1st was pretty much down to the diehards who loved it for it own sake. Then afterwards it started growing again with a better educated fanbase along with a bunch of authors, including you, who were adept at explaining or making useful products for the game.

What does this: 'Then afterwards it started growing again with a better educated fanbase', actually mean?

Never having played AD&D, I can't say.  I stick with OD&D.

Quote from: Brad;845331There are people who apologize for liking Alf and Vanilla Ice. Those things aren't sexy, unless you happen to like them in some sort of hipster way, which means you actually think they're terrible and your admiration is just thinly disguised derision. Then there are other people who really don't give a fuck what some asshole on the internet thinks and still watch Alf reruns and listen to Ice Ice Baby without a pretentious bone in their body.

My guess is the Youtube and G+ people are just trying to look cool by saying they don't like AD&D, but also remain inclusive by saying they used to play it. Sounds like what a politician would do.

"I played A D and D but I did not inhale."

Quote from: Ulairi;845308Why do so many people seem to dislike AD&D now?

I think it's because they've been stripped naked and forced to march on the uneven cobble streets of TBP, as a dressed-in-drag McClennan and Ettin shout out "Shame!" and Shannon Appel rings a bell, all for the sin of liking the unapproved Advanced Elfgame and its "random prostitute" table.

Quote from: Paraguybrarian;845717I think it's because they've been stripped naked and forced to march on the uneven cobble streets of TBP, as a dressed-in-drag McClennan and Ettin shout out "Shame!" and Shannon Appel rings a bell, all for the sin of liking the unapproved Advanced Elfgame and its "random prostitute" table.

That's the funniest shit I've seen in days.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;845652Never having played AD&D, I can't say.  I stick with OD&D.

My recollection from before I gave away my AD&D books is it was a lot like OD&D+Grayhawk+Blackmoor+Eldrich Witchery+some Dragon articles+a bunch more rules.

Quote from: Tetsubo;845627What does this: 'Then afterwards it started growing again with a better educated fanbase', actually mean?

I can't speak for Rob, but what that means for me is that those people who had been playing 1e AD&D for a few decades started explaining exactly why they liked that particular iteration of D&D and how it worked for them. Before the arrival of internet forums to discuss those kinds of questions most discussion was limited to rpg magazines which were more often than not limited to whatever was the newest thing.

One good example of that was how to handle combat. A lot of folks were just handwaving certain aspects or ignoring others entirely due to misunderstanding what was admittedly obtuse in the 1e DMG. Once 1e forum discussion started happening in earnest, one of the first things to come about was clear and concise guidelines on how to handle combat - particularly in regards to initiative, rounds and segments, and movement into and out of melee for instance.

Another real eye-opener for a lot of people was discussion and debate about just what a well-designed 1e AD&D adventure ought to be and how that differed from 2e or later 'storypath' style adventures. A minimalist (or nowadays OSR) approach went from being criticized as something backwards or lacking in depth to a worthy goal that allowed for more, not less, creative freedom.

So, in many respects, that kind of discussion about how to play and design new material for 1e AD&D took it out of the realm of just being an old collector's-only nostalgia trip into a vibrant, living game that should be enjoyed on its individual merits without references to it requiring some kind of fix from a later edition.

Oh, and just for the record...when we were working on OSRIC, I insisted on a table for random 'red-light encounters', and I ended up writing all of the city-based encounter tables largely so I could brag about that little bit of AD&D-ism later. I wrote it while holed up in an infamous red-light flophouse in Phnom Penh and it was pretty much exactly what I was encountering every time I left the room. At one point, I was interrupted by a drunken Irishman literally pissing on my door. On another occasion, at 4AM, I had to muscle my way up the stairs past two men in drag who were interested in lifting my wallet, my pack of cigarettes and my mobile phone. Shortly after I finished, I rolled a spliff to celebrate. In minutes I had the hotel manager and 3 ice-whores pounding on the door to bitch about the smell. So, yeah...if Appelcline and his flunkeys don't like it, they can all get fucked. I was only writing what I know.

Quote from: Paraguybrarian;845717I think it's because they've been stripped naked and forced to march on the uneven cobble streets of TBP, as a dressed-in-drag McClennan and Ettin shout out "Shame!" and Shannon Appel rings a bell, all for the sin of liking the unapproved Advanced Elfgame and its "random prostitute" table.

* Orson Welles slow clap *

Quote from: Nexus;845732That's the funniest shit I've seen in days.

Quote from: Paraguybrarian;845717I think it's because they've been stripped naked and forced to march on the uneven cobble streets of TBP, as a dressed-in-drag McClennan and Ettin shout out "Shame!" and Shannon Appel rings a bell, all for the sin of liking the unapproved Advanced Elfgame and its "random prostitute" table.

Yup.  Pretty much that.

Quote from: Tetsubo;845627What does this: 'Then afterwards it started growing again with a better educated fanbase', actually mean?

Kellri answer does a good job of making the point I was getting at.

The interest in D&D genesis, the internet allowing dozens of people sharing a niche hobby to communicate easily, and increased actual play; there developed a sense of the possibilities of AD&D and what it excelled at. And what made it stick was the internet allowing this information to be easily accessed by anybody with a minimum of effort.

All of this applies to OD&D, B/X, and BECEMI as well.

Quote from: Brad;845331There are people who apologize for liking Alf and Vanilla Ice. Those things aren't sexy, unless you happen to like them in some sort of hipster way, which means you actually think they're terrible and your admiration is just thinly disguised derision. Then there are other people who really don't give a fuck what some asshole on the internet thinks and still watch Alf reruns and listen to Ice Ice Baby without a pretentious bone in their body.

My guess is the Youtube and G+ people are just trying to look cool by saying they don't like AD&D, but also remain inclusive by saying they used to play it. Sounds like what a politician would do.

I'm one of those YouTube people. I post daily vlogs (six+ years and counting) and put up a RPG related video every Saturday. I *loved* AD&D when I played it. Then something better came along, 3E. I never looked back mechanically. You couldn't pay me to play an earlier edition of the game. Just reading the rules now makes me shudder. So many pointless walls and inconsistent systems. This isn't politics, it's evolution.