Not edition warring (much).

OD&D, Basic (of any stripe), "D&D", AD&D 1e, 2e, 3rd Edition D&D, 4e (yes, even 4e) and 5e were/are all identifiably D&D.  I don't particularly like 3rd or 4th edition, I'm kind of tepid on 5e, but at the end of the day they do what they should do, and among those criteria is "Be identifiably D&D".

But one thing I have never, ever understood is why some people don't want to change D&D's rules, they want to entirely and completely scrap D&D altogether so that all is left is the name "D&D" and some totally alien rule system is put on it.  I'm not angry about it, I'm really curious.  If you want a fantasy game where the stats are not S,I,W,D,C,Ch, start at a 3-18 range, character races come in at least Human, elf, dwarf, etc. (and others, if your game goes full on dragon-man, half-demon, teleporting elves, etc. that's your bag), then there's loads of games that do it.

I just see posts every now and again where people wanna throw everything away that makes D&D D&D except the name and I don't get that.  Is it a case of just wanting your not-D&D game to suddenly be the 800lb gorilla?

Genuinely curious.

Totally get your point, though I'd say that tinkering with the chassis has always been a joyful pastime.:-)

I think it is more a case of not being entirely aware where D&D leaves off and Not D&D starts.  In these kinds of discussions, I'm always of mixed minds.  There are things that I like in central D&D, and things I don't.  There are a few things that I would change (for some other game) that I know would take it out of being D&D, and others where I'm not so sure.  

Some people have to screw it up to see that they screwed it up.

Quote from: cranebump;1083872Totally get your point, though I'd say that tinkering with the chassis has always been a joyful pastime.:-)

Yeah but you kinda hit the point where you've got the old "Ship of Theseus" quandary, right?  How much do you take out/change before you don't have anything at all...but I get what you're saying.

Quote from: Steven Mitchell;1083873I think it is more a case of not being entirely aware where D&D leaves off and Not D&D starts.  In these kinds of discussions, I'm always of mixed minds.  There are things that I like in central D&D, and things I don't.  There are a few things that I would change (for some other game) that I know would take it out of being D&D, and others where I'm not so sure.  

Some people have to screw it up to see that they screwed it up.

Agreed!

Quote from: thedungeondelver;1083875Yeah but you kinda hit the point where you've got the old "Ship of Theseus" quandary, right?  How much do you take out/change before you don't have anything at all...

For sure. I can shamefully admit to spending hours "modifying" only to suddenly stop and say, "wtf am I doing? Just run the game, man!" My ridiculous tendencies do have the pleasant side-effect of increasing my respect for the chassis, so at least some good comes of it...hours later...:-)

Quote from: thedungeondelver;1083870Genuinely curious.

When you throw the d20 to hit a target what are you thinking? Not what the rules say. But what you visualize what your character is actually doing when that die is tossed?

Quote from: cranebump;1083880For sure. I can shamefully admit to spending hours "modifying" only to suddenly stop and say, "wtf am I doing? Just run the game, man!" My ridiculous tendencies do have the pleasant side-effect of increasing my respect for the chassis, so at least some good comes of it...hours later...:-)

Heh.  There's nothing like spending hours to modify it, then try the modification, and thus learn why it was the way it was in the first place.

Everybody customizes the RPG they get to fit their concept of how the game should be. When your level of customization gets to be so big that the original RPG is lost in it, then you should find a RPG that better suits what you want to play.

I think the problem is that many people only know D&D, and do not know how many other RPGs are out there. So if they only know D&D, then that is what must be changed.

Well, I only have a guess to the OP's curiosity. It's lack of experience or knowledge of the whole hobby. So, they equate D&D with RPGs AND probably have a healthy respect for the brand recognition. It's easier to recruit for the most popular game. If you're dishonest, you can also exploit that brand recognition to bait and switch unknowing players.

It's really too bad, people should know there are hundreds of games that out there to cater to any taste.

There's also the fact that D&D has the large network.

When your playing with the same group of friends you've been playing with for years it doesn't really matter what D&D is. If you prefer X you'll just play X

If you're looking for a group but don't really like D&D I can see why you might think "I wish D&D was more like X".

Quote from: trechriron;1083890Well, I only have a guess to the OP's curiosity. It's lack of experience or knowledge of the whole hobby. So, they equate D&D with RPGs AND probably have a healthy respect for the brand recognition. It's easier to recruit for the most popular game. If you're dishonest, you can also exploit that brand recognition to bait and switch unknowing players.

It's really too bad, people should know there are hundreds of games that out there to cater to any taste.

Exactly.  I think there's a degree of rightness about the "bait and switch" aspect too.  Some people will buy anything with D&D on the box, right?  I mean, TSR sold those little hand-held "Hunt the Wumpus" games that were the "D&D Electronic Labyrinth" game dealies.  They had fuck-all to do with D&D!  But it said D&D on the box so...right.  Same with the Intellivision games (no recognizable D&D mechanics at all there, unless they were underlying in the game code), or the Electronic board game, etc.

Perhaps some people think that they need to change or fix the popular game, because it will push the industry in the direction they'd like to see it move?  

Or, perhaps they are just Yugoloths in disguise?

Quote from: thedungeondelver;1083870If you want a fantasy game where the stats are not S,I,W,D,C,Ch, start at a 3-18 range, character races come in at least Human, elf, dwarf, etc. (and others, if your game goes full on dragon-man, half-demon, teleporting elves, etc. that's your bag), then there's loads of games that do it.

I just see posts every now and again where people wanna throw everything away that makes D&D D&D except the name and I don't get that.  Is it a case of just wanting your not-D&D game to suddenly be the 800lb gorilla?

This sounds like hyperbole to me. Can you point to any examples of such people? I think it would be better to ask them directly, rather than hypothesizing about their motives.

I'm pretty sure there is essentially no one that wants to play Traveller but just call it D&D.

I think also, your list of what makes D&D is far from the whole of the system. For example, in my current campaign, I've broken with your rules - in that human, elf, and dwarf are not options for PCs. But the rest of the game mechanics are identical - so I don't think that counts as being D&D in name only.

I have sometimes been tempted at times to make major rules changes for house versions of D&D too. My temptation has sometimes had to do with leveraging material for D&D - like being able to easily use the hundreds of modules and supplements out there, and being able to easily introduce players to the concepts - even if there are significant rule changes.

Quote from: jeff37923;1083884Everybody customizes the RPG they get to fit their concept of how the game should be. When your level of customization gets to be so big that the original RPG is lost in it, then you should find a RPG that better suits what you want to play.

I think the problem is that many people only know D&D, and do not know how many other RPGs are out there. So if they only know D&D, then that is what must be changed.

This makes sense to me. I've always been fast and loose with systems. In the 80s we changed games almost as often as we changed socks (teenagers, there is a reason they smell). I've known a few diehard D&D players who really don't know much else, so yeah I could totally see looking through their house rules and finding something resembling Traveller or Runequest or Fate or any of a variety of other games. Lets add some skills to stats, d20 is too confining d100 would offer much more variety, hit locations, armor absorbs damage instead of makes it harder to hit, less stats and die rolling more just tell me what you want to do etc.

If all you know is D&D, that is what you are going to modify and calling it Aardvarks and Anthills might not even occur to them as an option.


You don't have to look far to find new gamers claiming some great new idea only to have the old farts come along and point out Game X was doing that 30 years ago.

I think a lot of it is some people want to be playing a different RPG but could never convince their group to try a non-D&D RPG. So they houserule D&D to be like that other game so much they'd have been better off just playing that other game. But, with the title still attached, their players buy in more willingly.

To me, it's like calling carob chips "chocolate chip substitutes". There is nothing wrong with carob. But, it's not chocolate. It's a thing of it's own, and selling me on it as if it's chocolate is not a great strategy.