Fallen paladins are always infinitely more interesting than pure ones.  That being said I did have a 5e paladin with a 15 Wisdom and a 7 Intelligence.  I played him like he actually believed all the aphorisms and proverbs ever, even when they contradicted each other.

So, really, play a Lawful Good Human Paladin, why not?  Just because the rules don't say you can't.  It's just not the only way.  Still, I think I'd take a page from Rolemaster and consider swapping out spell lists for different alignments.  Generic holy warrior, sure, but does the Chaotic Neutral paladin who worships a Death Slaad still get Protection From Evil and Cure Light Wounds?  I think not.


While you're at it shift to Rolemaster entirely!  50th level Paladins get the Holy Martyr spell that lets them explode at will.  It's the most paladiny thing ever !

I dont think theres any good reason to force them to wait until level 50 for that.  I'm good with that being a first level thing.  Or even a thing that simply happens randomly at any time.

Quote from: SHARK;1059209Hey! What kind of classes are you teaching?

Law - in this case to 18 year olds, it can be taken as an undergraduate subject in the UK. Some of our students come from "non traditional backgrounds", which means that in the past I've had girls standing up shouting and banging the wall, one girl telling the class she was too good for it (she wasn't), and several cases with boys who did 'dominance test' type stuff at the start of class where they refused to sit down, and I had to establish I was the alpha ape before they'd sit and the class could start. Apart from 'too good' girl they were all good students in the end (I show them respect, but make clear they are here to learn; I get respect back), but it often felt like I was teaching teenage children. So much better this year with the jacket!

Quote from: SHARK;1059216Hi there, Sureshot! Oh, yeah, I enjoy the 5E system, it's good. There's always a few problems with every edition, you know?

5e to its credit is built for adapting - it's very easy to say "In this campaign Paladins are Lawful Good, human only, with one of the following LG gods as patron".

Just avoid AL like the plague.

Quote from: David Johansen;1059225Fallen paladins are always infinitely more interesting than pure ones.  

In this day and age, definitely not IMO.

Quote from: Warboss Squee;10592182nd will always be my fav edition.

2nd I still love because it brought us a playable bard class and the Dark Sun setting.

Quote from: jeff37923;10592482nd I still love because it brought us a playable bard class and the Dark Sun setting.

I enjoy though it does have some flaws. As to Bards I always found it weird how in 1E it required DM permission when imo it was not even remotely overpowered. Nor a broken class.

Quote from: sureshot;1059220It was also very very hard to roll up a Paladin due to attribute restrictions. That 17 Cha was a fun killer to someone wanting to role one up naturally. I would have made it a 15 Cha.

Also part of Gygax's sense of balancing the game. Rarity of an effect justified its power. e.g. rolling a paladin, 18(00) strength.

I am fine with the decision to open the class to all races. It is in keeping with the design of removing racial level restrictions and all that. So dwarven, elven, and even halfling paladins are fine as far as I'm concerned. Discarding the restriction on alignment I am not on board with. Paladins are lawful good end of story.

Quote from: Anselyn;1059253Also part of Gygax's sense of balancing the game. Rarity of an effect justified its power. e.g. rolling a paladin, 18(00) strength.

I understand the restrictions. By the book rolling of the dice. Which when I started in the hobby meant almost no Paladins at least at the tables I played and ran at.

Again the problem with the alignment restriction is that the alignments sre too broad imo. If they would have a codified set of rules for each alignment. Giving in point form what a character can or cannot do.

Palladium Books rules has it's issues yet we never ever had any alignment debates st least at our tables. Their fantasy rpg has a similar class though much less powerful. Players who thought they were going to play Lawful Stupid. Or jerk DMs who got a kick out of making Paladin characters fall were in for a very very rude awakening. They either adapted to the system. Or ran away back to D&D.

Unfortunately whenever myself or others bring up that kind of solution.  Too many in the D&D community want go have a entire baker shops of cakes and eat them too. Keep the alignments vague in description while also insisting to have a alignment. You can't have it both ways imo.

Quote from: S'mon;1059197I'd say they killed the Paladin because they hate Christianity and can't identify with a Christian archetype.

What a load of nonsense. The paladin appeared in 1975 and within a few years, as directed by Gygax himself, D&D had largely abandoned the Christian archetype of the original cleric (the AD&D PHB required clerics to have a deity, and GD&H and Deities & Demigods did not include the Christian pantheon). And how would they have included it? List hit points for Yahweh? I'm pretty sure Jesus would have to make all saving throws automatically, because Jesus Saves. Demons and non-Christian religions in the books undoubtedly helped fuel the satanic panic; just having stat blocks for Christian saints and angels probably would have made it worse.

I suppose Gygax changed the assassin from neutral (Blackmoor) to evil (AD&D 1ed) because he hated capitalism and couldn't identify with a profit-motivated archetype.

Quote from: VincentTakeda;1059213Always hated the concept of paladin in the first place and never felt like when one presented in game that it caused anything other than problems at the table both in and out of game.  Gods chosen warrior only sounds good when its your specific god.  Is Lebowski a paladin of Dionysius?  It all just always felt wrong to me.

Yes.

Circa 1978 or 1979: Somebody to player of a paladin, "You don't have to be an asshole!" got the reply "Yes, I do; it says so in Greyhawk." (I was neither player, if you're wondering.)

Alignment restrictions always led to issues between players rather than characters; one player wanted to play a paladin and another wanted to play a thief. The result was that paladins became Lawful Stupid almost by default ("Oh, you are an expert treasure hunter. Never mind then!"). Is that what people are mourning?
:confused:

Quote from: S'mon;1059237Just avoid AL like the plague.

It's lonely defending AL on this site, but not lonely at the gaming table so I can bear it. Carry on, haters.

Quote from: rawma;1059275It's lonely defending AL on this site, but not lonely at the gaming table so I can bear it. Carry on, haters.

We will.

Quote from: VincentTakeda;1059227I dont think theres any good reason to force them to wait until level 50 for that.  I'm good with that being a first level thing.  Or even a thing that simply happens randomly at any time.

Well it is a +50 fireball.

Quote from: S'mon;1059235Law - in this case to 18 year olds, it can be taken as an undergraduate subject in the UK. Some of our students come from "non traditional backgrounds", which means that in the past I've had girls standing up shouting and banging the wall, one girl telling the class she was too good for it (she wasn't), and several cases with boys who did 'dominance test' type stuff at the start of class where they refused to sit down, and I had to establish I was the alpha ape before they'd sit and the class could start. Apart from 'too good' girl they were all good students in the end (I show them respect, but make clear they are here to learn; I get respect back), but it often felt like I was teaching teenage children. So much better this year with the jacket!

Greetings!

LOL! HAHAHA! Oh my god, S'mon! The "Alpha Ape!" Beautiful! Sounds like your class is fun--I like Law, perhaps not surprisingly. I once read that 50% of Lawyers start out with a degree in *History*. LOL. Your class also sounds a bit...disturbing. Where the hell do these kids come from? I mean, how are they in a Law class, even at 18 years old? What kind of school are you teaching at buddy? LOL. I remember when I was in a high-level Political Science class, dealing with *International Law*--everyone in the class were all well-dressed and very well behaved. The kids weren't 18, I admit. A little older, say 20 or 21. Sounds like British society has gone to hell, too. I'm *shocked* S'mon! LOL. I thought Britain would have the ettiquette and decorum thing down, you know?

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: Opaopajr;1059116 It's OK. There, there. This is their generation's paladin, just like it is their generation's Star Wars, and so on.

It is merely the natural passing of a golden age into the mists of time, letting a gloriously novel, tarnished, and rusted metal age take its ignominious place amongst this pageant of devolution.

Let us sink peacefully into the welcoming arms of the abyss.

What Jeff said