Quote from: Opaopajr;1059116 It's OK. There, there. This is their generation's paladin, just like it is their generation's Star Wars, and so on.

It is merely the natural passing of a golden age into the mists of time, letting a gloriously novel, tarnished, and rusted metal age take its ignominious place amongst this pageant of devolution.

Let us sink peacefully into the welcoming arms of the abyss.

LOL! I damned near spit my coffee out laughing from this. Just imagining your tone had me smiling.

Yeah, I think there is...a *cultural* difference in expectations, base knowledge, that kind of thing. From what I've seen, it isn't just related to how Paladins work in the game, either.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: Warboss Squee;1059117They took away all of the alignment requirements for all the classes, while simultaneously changing spells that used to work with alignment. Makes you wonder why they left alignment in, since it doesn't actually matter for anything anymore.

Greetings!

Hi there Warboss! You know, you have a very good point there. I touched on it with how they have jerked around the paladin, but they have really cut the balls off of Alignment haven't they? I mean, of course, philosophically, etc, Alignment isn't perfect as a mechanic or a "system." However, for being a quick and easy mechanic that adds a certain nuance and depth to individual characters, and whole dimensions in a campaign, Alignment does a pretty damned good job of that, you know? You used to have Alignments, Alignment Languages, and the Alignments had social, political dimesnions that were significant, too. Now...yeah. What is the point in having Alignment at all, when there is no restriction or expectation that you can't always just do whatever you want, with no consequences whatesoever?

Criticise Alignment as you will, but I agree with you, Warboss. Something meaningful has been lost with the way they have shredded Alignment.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: jeff37923;1059133Do Not Go Gentle Into That Good Night
 - Dylan Thomas

Do not go gentle into that good night,
Old age should burn and rave at close of day;
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.

Though wise men at their end know dark is right,
Because their words had forked no lightning they
Do not go gentle into that good night.

Good men, the last wave by, crying how bright
Their frail deeds might have danced in a green bay,
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.

Wild men who caught and sang the sun in flight,
And learn, too late, they grieved it on its way,
Do not go gentle into that good night.

Grave men, near death, who see with blinding sight
Blind eyes could blaze like meteors and be gay,
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.

And you, my father, there on the sad height,
Curse, bless, me now with your fierce tears, I pray.
Do not go gentle into that good night.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.

Greetings!

Jeff, that's a fine poem. I always remember that from an old English professor I had. I remember him reading it to the class. Course, he was in his 70's, and was very "Old School." It's weird...I feel like that poem is more and more applicable in our gaming, and in society as a whole. I forgot when that poem was written, too. Good stuff, Jeff.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

I'd say they killed the Paladin because they hate Christianity and can't identify with a Christian archetype.

However at the gaming table, basically every Paladin I see could have been made for 1e. Exception for a 4e Blackguard who was basically a Millennial version of the old Anti-Paladin - instead of dastardly, she was mildly evil-curious.

Although 5e is good in its own right, 1e is awesome and more interesting to me.

I'm with you on how they neutered the concept of Alignment in 5E and cheapened the Paladin class.

Quote from: S'mon;1059197I'd say they killed the Paladin because they hate Christianity and can't identify with a Christian archetype.

However at the gaming table, basically every Paladin I see could have been made for 1e. Exception for a 4e Blackguard who was basically a Millennial version of the old Anti-Paladin - instead of dastardly, she was mildly evil-curious.

Greetings!

Right on target, S'mon! That, my friend, is so true. " They killed the Paladin because they hate Christianity and can't identify with a Christian archetype."

You know, S'mon, when I was reading the rules and such, from "within" it all seems just like rule-speak and jargon, and it's kind of an intellectual exercise to consider what the designers were thinking, why they changed this or that--but I didn't really step back, and ask, "Is there some deeper ideological agenda going on here?"

Fucking Brilliant, my friend!

Hey! What kind of classes are you teaching?

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: Doc Sammy;1059205Although 5e is good in its own right, 1e is awesome and more interesting to me.

I'm with you on how they neutered the concept of Alignment in 5E and cheapened the Paladin class.

Greetings!

Hi Doc Sammy! GOOD! I'm glad I'm not just ranting delusionally. They have done some serious design damage to the Paladin, and extending out to the Alignment system as well. Those effects--have a real impact on a campaign, you know?

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Always hated the concept of paladin in the first place and never felt like when one presented in game that it caused anything other than problems at the table both in and out of game.  Gods chosen warrior only sounds good when its your specific god.  Is Lebowski a paladin of Dionysius?  It all just always felt wrong to me.

All that considered... Semper Pistris!

Well we can agree to disagree. No seripus damage eas done imo. One can ignore whstever onrs does not like. While I'm not in a 5E game yet I knosome friends sre and their campaign world did not implode. I allowed Rangers to use two weapon fighting in medium armor.

I can respect not liking the change. The game is far from ruined imo. Anyway we may disagree on many things and that's not a bad thing.

Quote from: sureshot;1059215Well we can agree to disagree. No seripus damage eas done imo. One can ignore whstever onrs does not like. While I'm not in a 5E game yet I knosome friends sre and their campaign world did not implode. I allowed Rangers to use two weapon fighting in medium armor.

I can respect not liking the change. The game is far from ruined imo. Anyway we may disagree on many things and that's not a bad thing.

Greetings!

Hi there, Sureshot! Oh, yeah, I enjoy the 5E system, it's good. There's always a few problems with every edition, you know? You said you're not playing 5E right now--what system are you playing with?

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

None now due to more important things outside of gaming such as work and life preventing me from doing so. I have mainly been playing D&D 3.5 to Pathfinder with a occasional Rifts game. The second not do much as I'm not a fan of the system like I used to be.

I was fully on board at first with Pathfinder 2E. Yet recently became tired of the edition train. The rules did not interest me in the least and Paizo suddrnly going woke and insisting I become full time SJW at my game table demanding I be inclusive, diverse and aldo be a full time psychologist really turned me off.

Quote from: Doc Sammy;1059205Although 5e is good in its own right, 1e is awesome and more interesting to me.

I'm with you on how they neutered the concept of Alignment in 5E and cheapened the Paladin class.

2nd will always be my fav edition.

The "old" Paladin died for many reasons, but perhaps the key was "balance." Classes are (theoretically) not supposed to be clearly better than another, but a 1e Paladin with the same stats as a fighter is better than that fighter right off the bat.

Now, Gygax's sense of balance used alignment as part of the balancing factor between classes, instead of DPS, HPR, SAVBO, and all the other things a modern gamer considers which wasn't a factor in the 70s.

But alignment (with no  impact on DPS, etc) is pretty de-emphasized in 3.5. They mostly did it in 4e to make it a better computer game (I conjecture), but continued the trend in 5e.

Bottom line, alignment is core to a 1e Paladin. Alignment is basically nothing in 5e. So...the 5e Paladin simply can't be the same as the 1e Paladin.

It was also very very hard to roll up a Paladin due to attribute restrictions. That 17 Cha was a fun killer to someone wanting to role one up naturally. I would have made it a 15 Cha.

Opening the door to different types of Paladins doesn't really bother me.  It used to, I admit, but now...  Eh, there are 5e Oaths that more or less make more sense if they ARE Lawful Good.