Quote from: Shasarak;1084709Well yeah of course they did.  The whole game is built on top of over 30 years of DnD history of course it is incoherent.

The problem that I see is that the only time when WotC sat down and said "This is an incoherent mess so lets tidy it up" was the only time in history that DnD was beaten by another version of DnD that specifically did not and, in your own words, doubled down on the incoherence.

Cleaning up the cosmology wasn't the sole reason that 4e was hated. In fact, I don't think it was that high on many people's lists of reasons to hate it. Pathfinder wasn't lauded for its convoluted cosmology, but for its gameplay replicating 3e with minor adjustments.

This is a simple "throwing the baby out with the bathwater" problem. 5e threw out a lot of genuinely good innovations from 4e, and kept things that weren't particularly relevant in the first place that few people complained about anyway. Combining AC and Reflex saves was a good idea, but it got thrown out with the bathwater.

The feywild and shadowfell have been retrofitted to the latest version of the great wheel while the quasi-elemental planes have been thrown out in favor of the elemental chaos. Nobody really complains about that, because nobody really cares about the planes to begin with.

QuoteAnother factor to consider is that there may be no single unifying coherent story. I can see the attraction of having something that answers all the questions once and for all like the one line of Physics equation that solves the Universe. But what happens if there really is Charon and Zyphus and Pharasma? The multiverse is a big place and there is room for multiple Deaths. Now I have no problem with you limiting yourself to a single Death but thats not my bag.

Those gods are exclusive to Golarion. Golarion isn't a multiverse, it's a single planet. It makes zero sense to have three mutually exclusive Deaths unless the writers can't get their shit straight. That's the whole problem with trying to build your cosmology around the inherently absurd D&D wheel model.

Quote from: S'mon;1084742I definitely find it works best to use a lot of syncretism in polytheistic settings. Works much better in-world and gives rise to interesting effects. Eg turns out my son's Dragonborn Bbn-20 Shieldbiter is supposedly demigod son of the gold dragon goddess Aura, who is identified with Athena. He works for the Kingdom of Nerath who identify their patron goddess Erathis with Athena too. So that gives Shieldbiter a lot of prestige within Nerath even though he's a different species from the human Nerathi.

Quote from: SHARK;1084755Greetings!

You know, I admit, while part of me rolls my eyes at "Dragonborn"--you know why, my friend!:D Having Dragonborn be savage and powerful barbarians is very cool. I think having them be savage barbarians actually creates a legitimate "space" for them to exist in a campaign. I like that as well, S'mon!

I think the syncretism thing for religion also works nicely. I tend to do a lot of that in my World of Thandor. I don't necessarily even make rules for it; the players just know that sages believe the Goddess She-Rah is very similar to the War Goddess Xena, and there also overlap in customs, such as sacred temple prostitutes, like what the cult of the goddess Kambi Kardesha supports. Especially in larger cities of the civilized lands, where there are huge temples, specialized markets and festivals, with lots of festivities and such going on. Such temples also augment their vast profit streams by developing and operating special market shops that sell a variety of styles of clothing, as well as cosmetics, perfumes, and body oils.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

An explanation I settled on at one point was a Eberron-style agnosticism mixed with a celestial bureaucracy. Essentially, divine magic comes from an undefined source regardless of the belief of the caster. Divine beings are created from the belief in them and built an elaborate bureaucracy to oversee all the different pantheons. There's a department for every godly purview, so different gods may sit in multiple departments.

Although I ultimately found it easier not to have gods at all, or at least not ones that are arbitrarily beyond game statistics. D&D gods are huge a*holes anyway, what with letting empyrean titans run around causing chaos and resurrecting them whenever adventurers justly kill them.

If the party meets a "god," who literally comes out of the Woodwork to drive the plot, they are well within their rights to imprison or kill said god. The consequences vary by god, but generally either another appropriate god will assume their duties if possible (e.g. imprisoning the Sun will force the Moon to shine 24/7), their killer will inherit their duties (e.g. killing Death and Santa Claus will turn you into Father Deathmas), or really bad stuff will happen until the problem is solved (e.g. if the Sandman is imprisoned then nobody will be able to dream, and will thus go progressively crazier, until he is freed).

There has been a lot of interesting ideas on this thread I didn't really expect when I first saw it.  For now though, I want to come back to this bit.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1084385The problem with the Pathfinder magic system ...  is that it forces you to use the Golarion cosmology, ...

This doesn't seem to be true at all.  The spell lists might be organized in the background by Essences and Traditions, but there is nothing mechanical forcing use of the Great Beyond or any other cosmology.  Material, Mental, Spiritual, and Vital magics can either be tied to whatever sources your campaign has that maps to their general vibe or ignored completely.

There is an in-setting reason why things are the way they are, sure, but players being forced to use it?   I'm just not seeing that.  You could just as easily say that a setting has a Unified Mana Theory where all the magic comes from one source and the four Traditions are just broad categories of how it is accessed.   I think that is how Starfinder sets up the future of the setting.  Technomancers and Mystics both tap into the same power, they just learn different things to do with it.

However, it does seem that they are going to stop making generic supplements.  So while people might not be forced to use setting elements to make use of the mechanics, if they buy the books those elements will be part of the purchase.   That might not be to everybody's liking.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1085284Cleaning up the cosmology wasn't the sole reason that 4e was hated. In fact, I don't think it was that high on many people's lists of reasons to hate it. Pathfinder wasn't lauded for its convoluted cosmology, but for its gameplay replicating 3e with minor adjustments.

It was pretty high on my list, definitely top ten but honestly there was just so many problems where do you even start?  Pathfinder keeping the normal pl;anes and alignment system was a definite "improvement" over the 4e version.

QuoteThis is a simple "throwing the baby out with the bathwater" problem. 5e threw out a lot of genuinely good innovations from 4e, and kept things that weren't particularly relevant in the first place that few people complained about anyway. Combining AC and Reflex saves was a good idea, but it got thrown out with the bathwater.

Not sure what you mean there, AC and Reflex have always been different things unless you mean the Pit Trap hitting you in your Reflex instead of making a save against it?  Personally I prefer to make my own save rather then the static defenses.

QuoteThe feywild and shadowfell have been retrofitted to the latest version of the great wheel while the quasi-elemental planes have been thrown out in favor of the elemental chaos. Nobody really complains about that, because nobody really cares about the planes to begin with.

Well you and I care so screw those other guys!  I like the Feywild/First World that was a pretty iconic plane kinda missing from the Great Wheel.  The Shadowfell is nothing special, just the Plane of Shadow rolled into the Domains of Dread but now there is a place where Emo Goths come from so that is a solid meh I guess.  The Elemental Chaos is super lame, like someone smashed up all your toys and now your parents are trying to convince you that it is actually better to play with broken stuff.  No one is buying that.

QuoteThose gods are exclusive to Golarion. Golarion isn't a multiverse, it's a single planet. It makes zero sense to have three mutually exclusive Deaths unless the writers can't get their shit straight. That's the whole problem with trying to build your cosmology around the inherently absurd D&D wheel model.

Well either Golarion uses the Great Wheel planes or it does not.  If it does then it is part of the multiverse with all of the diversity that entails.

Which reminds me of a quote from Neil deGrasse Tyson which if I may paraphrase without permission; the Multiverse is under no obligation to make sense to you.

The Raven Queen rules over the Shadowfell, and the Sorrowsworn do her bidding.  They serve as her enforcers.

That's how I run it.

Put me down as another alienated by 4E's cosmology.

I never used it even when I was running 4E.

I don't want a cosmology that was designed by committee to facilitate 'adventure'.

Quote from: TJS;1085721Put me down as another alienated by 4E's cosmology.

I never used it even when I was running 4E.

I don't want a cosmology that was designed by committee to facilitate 'adventure'.

I don't want a banal over-complicated cosmology designed by nerds with OCD to facilitate "symmetry" that isn't remotely fun to adventure in.

There's a reason why Planescape: Torment took place almost entirely within Sigil despite being able to play with the great wheel.

There's a reason why the concept of multiple planes is used as a throwaway joke in popular culture. The Grim Adventures of Billy and Mandy references "Elysium, Shangri-La and Lower Heck" as jokes. Invader Zim mentions a "universe of pure itching," "universe of pure dookie," and "a room with a moose" as jokes. The Buffyverse mentions "land of the trolls," "land of perpetual Wednesday," "crazy melty land," "world without shrimp," and "world with nothing but shrimp" as jokes.

The reason is because it's a fundamentally silly idea that only D&D explores with any degree of seriousness. Naturally, the planes are horribly banal. Even D&D itself ignores most of the planes to focus on the few interesting bits like the City of Brass. The City of Brass is the only interesting location in the entire elemental plane of fire, because unsurprisingly an entire universe made of nothing but fire is extremely boring.

I've tried many times to make the planes interesting. Ultimately I've largely given up because there's really no point to having planes. You can do all the same stuff on the mortal plane. Want to visit the City of Brass? It's located in a Mordor-esque volcanic wasteland full of exotic landscapes and wildlife, fought over by multiple tribes of ifrit, seraph, eldjotnar, salamander, azer, etc.

Long story short, the planes are stupid.

No point in covering the rest of your post but just wanted to cover this bit real quick.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1085727There's a reason why Planescape: Torment took place almost entirely within Sigil despite being able to play with the great wheel.

I presume that reason is the same as why Baldurs Gate took place entirely on the Sword Coast or Curse of the Azure Bonds took place entirely within the Dalelands.

I gotta say that is the worst argument that I have seen today next to the guy who sued Neverending Story for having an end.

Why does paizo do anything?

Quote from: RPGPundit;1086505Why does paizo do anything?

You know, this thread just might have slipped into obscurity off the front page if you didn't lock lips and try to puff life into it.

Maybe replying to topics you can't just close if they bore you is as useless to post as it is to read your snark?

Quote from: RPGPundit;1086505Why does paizo do anything?

Not much of a Paizo fan?

Quote from: Razor 007;1086559Not much of a Paizo fan?

Understatement of the year..

Quote from: Manic Modron;1086561Remember, they are trying to destroy Western Civilization or something.

I'm not a fan of their safe space garbage, either.

Quote from: Razor 007;1086559Not much of a Paizo fan?

Nope. Never have been.