Quote from: Razor 007;1084201Well, I expect them to release a new official PF 2E Core Rulebook.  It will likely be 90%-95% identical to the Playtest Rulebook.  Not everyone will buy it all over again; is my prediction.  That creates a problem for Paizo, doesn't it?  They can't pay their salaries if people just download the free update, instead of purchasing more books.

I guess they will have to come up with something they can sell.  Maybe something they can put out every month on a subscription service that even groups playing with the free playtest rules can buy and use.

If only they can think of a product like that.

Quote from: Shasarak;1084227I guess they will have to come up with something they can sell.  Maybe something they can put out every month on a subscription service that even groups playing with the free playtest rules can buy and use.

If only they can think of a product like that.

Indeed - the sort of people who sprang for the hard copy playtest are their core market - the kind who will buy a lot of supplements etc. I don't think its the end of the world for Paizo if they don't re-buy the core book.

Quote from: Razor 007;1084151Paizo also labeled some spells as being 10th Level Spells.  Even at 20th Level, your character still doesn't have any 10th Level spell slots though....


Primal Spells sounds like D&D 4E Primal Powers, to me.....

While obviously inspired by primal powers, primal spells are actually a new division of magic a la arcane and divine. Previously druid and ranger spells were classified as divine, but now they are classified as primal.

Power sources aren't actually an innovation unique to 4e. Older editions had something loosely similar: e.g. OSRIC classifies magic as either arcane, phantasmal, divine or druidic.

Quote from: Shasarak;1084165Illusion spells are under Arcane.

I was referring to older editions of D&D in which illusionists were a distinct class rather than a sub-class of wizard.

Quote from: Shasarak;1084227I guess they will have to come up with something they can sell.  Maybe something they can put out every month on a subscription service that even groups playing with the free playtest rules can buy and use.

If only they can think of a product like that.

IIRC, Paizo makes most of their profit from their adventures.

Quote from: Charon's Little Helper;1084235Indeed - the sort of people who sprang for the hard copy playtest are their core market - the kind who will buy a lot of supplements etc. I don't think its the end of the world for Paizo if they don't re-buy the core book.

I think a considerable number of print copies of the Pathfinder Playtest, were sold to people who were very curious to see how Paizo finally responded to the huge success of D&D 5E.  People who haven't been purchasing adventures from Paizo, etc.  The Playtest is the shiny new object on the shelf.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1084239I was referring to older editions of D&D in which illusionists were a distinct class rather than a sub-class of wizard.

Yeah you could have Illusionist as a distinct class and a Transmuter as a distinct class and a Necromancer as a distinct class and on the other hand I do like the elegance of the eight schools of wizardry.

QuoteIIRC, Paizo makes most of their profit from their adventures.

Exactly.

Bards shouldnt cast spells at all. Magical songs maybe. Simply inspiring tales and songs are my preference.

Quote from: Psikerlord;1084277Bards shouldnt cast spells at all. Magical songs maybe. Simply inspiring tales and songs are my preference.

Then go with a non-D&D inspired version.

As far as I'm aware - bards have always cast spells. The closest I can think of that didn't in any fantasy/magic setting was in the Dark Age of Camelot MMO - the Bard & Minstrel cast spells, while the Midgard (Viking) equivalent, the Skald, didn't cast spells, just shouts (crappy instant spells) but was the beefiest melee of the three and could act as a secondary tank.

And even then - the actual Bard class could cast spells.

I still don't really see how this change makes any real difference.

• What role would an Arcane Bard fill?
• What role does an Occult Bard fill?
• How does this change impact other things like race selection, equipment/magic items, etc.?

Quote from: HappyDaze;1084290I still don't really see how this change makes any real difference.

These four Traditions, the spells in their lists, and the essences that make up them, seem to be largely setting conceits and background design choices.  Spell casters in setting are aware of these essences and the designers are trying to use them to guide how things are set up, but they aren't mechanical elements that I can tell.

I'll do a rough breakdown of some 3rd level spells.

Arcane and Primal casters both have the Material Essence that I mentioned above.  They share such spells as Earthbind, Feet to Fins, Fireball, Lightning Bolt, Meld into Stone, stinking cloud, and Wall of Wind.  Largely elemental powers that focus on the physical world.

Arcane and Occult casters have Mental essence and share spells like Clairaudience, Dream Message, Enthral, Hypnotic Pattern, Invisibility Sphere, Locate, Mind Reading, and Paralyze.  Mostly powers that affect the mind or possibly make use of the Astral plane.

Divine and Occult casters have the Spiritual essence.  Their shared spells include Circle of Protection, Heroism, and Zone of Truth.  Granted, sample size is small here, but branching the comparison to 4th level, they also share Read Omens, Remove Curse, and Talking Corpse.  So you are looking at spells that deal with souls, divine powers, and energies from the Outer Planes.  Zone of Truth seems like it could be Mental, but they are probably going with Divine Authority and Heroism is bolstering the soul or something

Divine and Primal casters deal with the Vital essence and can both cast things like Neutralize Poison, Remove Disease, Searing Light, as well as Heal and Finger of Death.  Had to branch out from 3rd level again. Sigh.  But these spells deal with life, death, vitality and such.

Not much to compare at this level for two of those (clearly), but the spell lists in the playtest have already been criticized for being skewed. At least in spell count and variety for 3rd level spells Arcane casters have the advantage at 26 spell choices. The Occult list has 22, the Primal list has 18 and the Divine list has 14.  Hopefully the final document addresses this.

There are some spells that are universal.  Fear, Blindness, Dispel Magic, Banishment, and others.  I guess some effects are so useful that casters worked hard to develop their own methods.

Quote from: Shasarak;1084276Yeah you could have Illusionist as a distinct class and a Transmuter as a distinct class and a Necromancer as a distinct class and on the other hand I do like the elegance of the eight schools of wizardry.

The eight schools are essentially arbitrary and don't adequately organize spells by effect. For example, healing spells and teleportation spells have changed schools across editions. Conjuration got particularly bloated in 3rd edition.

I prefer a more reasonable organization like Ars Magica or Spheres of Power.

Quote from: Manic Modron;1084318These four Traditions, the spells in their lists, and the essences that make up them, seem to be largely setting conceits and background design choices.  Spell casters in setting are aware of these essences and the designers are trying to use them to guide how things are set up, but they aren't mechanical elements that I can tell.

I'll do a rough breakdown of some 3rd level spells.

Arcane and Primal casters both have the Material Essence that I mentioned above.  They share such spells as Earthbind, Feet to Fins, Fireball, Lightning Bolt, Meld into Stone, stinking cloud, and Wall of Wind.  Largely elemental powers that focus on the physical world.

Arcane and Occult casters have Mental essence and share spells like Clairaudience, Dream Message, Enthral, Hypnotic Pattern, Invisibility Sphere, Locate, Mind Reading, and Paralyze.  Mostly powers that affect the mind or possibly make use of the Astral plane.

Divine and Occult casters have the Spiritual essence.  Their shared spells include Circle of Protection, Heroism, and Zone of Truth.  Granted, sample size is small here, but branching the comparison to 4th level, they also share Read Omens, Remove Curse, and Talking Corpse.  So you are looking at spells that deal with souls, divine powers, and energies from the Outer Planes.  Zone of Truth seems like it could be Mental, but they are probably going with Divine Authority and Heroism is bolstering the soul or something

Divine and Primal casters deal with the Vital essence and can both cast things like Neutralize Poison, Remove Disease, Searing Light, as well as Heal and Finger of Death.  Had to branch out from 3rd level again. Sigh.  But these spells deal with life, death, vitality and such.

Not much to compare at this level for two of those (clearly), but the spell lists in the playtest have already been criticized for being skewed. At least in spell count and variety for 3rd level spells Arcane casters have the advantage at 26 spell choices. The Occult list has 22, the Primal list has 18 and the Divine list has 14.  Hopefully the final document addresses this.

There are some spells that are universal.  Fear, Blindness, Dispel Magic, Banishment, and others.  I guess some effects are so useful that casters worked hard to develop their own methods.

And that's why I think the Spheres of Power mechanics are superior in every way. It is vastly more flavorful in its implementation of how magic is organized. Not only does it provide 22 spheres in the core rules, but you can make up your own spheres if desired (the examples include "fairy" and "bear"). And the casters aren't overpowered like they are in the default magic system, since you have to specialize in a sphere to get good at it rather than gaining a laundry list of spells every other level.

The problem with the Pathfinder magic system (beyond being another implementation of the broken 3e magic system) is that it forces you to use the Golarion cosmology, which exemplifies the worst parts of the Great Wheel cosmology. Even 5e D&D has dispensed with the Great Wheel for the most part.

I don't have any experience with Spheres of Power, other than it is well regarded.  I'm sure it will see an update, though.

I don't have any problem with the Great Wheel either and a quick Google  for "5e cosmology" shows pictures that look like the Wheel anyway so...  Eh?  Not really bothered there either.

Paizo might not succeed at their goals, but I'm still looking forward to judging the results.

It appears that the UTEML Skill Proficiency idea, is the best thing I've come across so far in the Playtest hardcover.

Untrained -2
Trained +0
Expert +1
Master +2
Legendary +3

Although I've read online that the UTEML modifier scale is likely changing to +0, +2, +4, +6, +8?

I'm aware that it's actually Level +1, etc.  I'm just looking at the modifiers alone, for use in my far less crunchy home brew D&D.

I'm pretty sure that you are right about the new numbers for UTEML, but also untrained skills get no level bonus by default.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1084385The eight schools are essentially arbitrary and don't adequately organize spells by effect. For example, healing spells and teleportation spells have changed schools across editions. Conjuration got particularly bloated in 3rd edition.

I prefer a more reasonable organization like Ars Magica or Spheres of Power.

Of course it is arbitrary which is why people keep on tweeking the rules.

I wouldn't say arbitrary so much as poorly administered.