Forgive me if I have not read the rest of the thread, but I haven't been here in a while, and I'm just catching up.

Quote from: Bill;725543Technically, they may have.

But in 1E dnd zero level and 1hd soldiers and monsters are essentially one hit minions.

I've never been thrilled about the way that hit points scale for zero level or first level characters in pre-4e games (especially pre-3e games).

In 1e, a house cat is a legitimate problem for a low-level guy. My zero level soldier, or first level thief could easily get their throats ripped out by a fucking cat. Hell, even squirrels are a bit of a problem. I can't figure out if Gygax was tripping on 'shrooms when he wrote this stuff, or if it was a deliberate attempt at comedy. But whatever.

4e failed, because it simply did not resemble previous editions at all. The game mechanics, implied meta-setting, and planar cosmology were all radically different from what came before. It also didn't help that 4e was constantly being errata'd into a partially different form over a relatively short period of time. Also, the combats were maddeningly slow. Nobody sane wants to spend 90 minutes grinding out a very slow combat with a handful of kobolds, while calculating different numeric modifiers every single round, depending on where you are and what you're doing on the grid.

That style of play works for some people, but most gamers don't want to deal with that shit. 4e emphasized a narrow style of play, and in the end, that was its undoing.

Oh, and did I forget about the cancellations of the Dungeon and Dragon print mags (which lowered the visibility of the game), as well as WoTC's attempt to escape from the OGL? They can't put that genie back in the bottle, and it was foolish for them to even try.

There's more, but you get the point. :pundit:

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;725562Well the only difference would be you dont roll damage, so there is greater predictability (get hit x times, you go down). With hit points and wound systems, there is some uncertainty usually how many hits you can sustain before going down.

The big thing about minions is that they reduce bookkeeping on GMs.  Throw out a handful of minions.  If they attack, toss out a couple of 20s, see which ones hit, and you know the damage.  If they get hit, they die.

No keeping track of hit points, or bonuses, or anything else.

Quote from: robiswrong;725638The big thing about minions is that they reduce bookkeeping on GMs.  Throw out a handful of minions.  If they attack, toss out a couple of 20s, see which ones hit, and you know the damage.  If they get hit, they die.

No keeping track of hit points, or bonuses, or anything else.

I understand. I was talking about the difference between hit systems and HP systems.

In an hp system though it can still be achieved by just giving them 1 HP (I did that in my 3E wuxia campaign for chumps).

Quote from: robiswrong;725638The big thing about minions is that they reduce bookkeeping on GMs.  Throw out a handful of minions.  If they attack, toss out a couple of 20s, see which ones hit, and you know the damage.  If they get hit, they die.

No keeping track of hit points, or bonuses, or anything else.

A Fire Giant Minion is antithetical to the very idea of a Fire Giant.  When you look in the dictionary under Dissociated Mechanics, you see Minion as a Prime Example.

Any Mook rules, by definition, are metagame mechanics.  No thanks.

Quote from: CRKrueger;725662A Fire Giant Minion is antithetical to the very idea of a Fire Giant.  When you look in the dictionary under Dissociated Mechanics, you see Minion as a Prime Example.

Any Mook rules, by definition, are metagame mechanics.  No thanks.

I am fine with mook rules for the right genre. The problem with minions in 4E is D&D isn't really focused on that cinematic style where the inept guard drops from a karate chop. I find it is a fine option to include for the right campaign ( like I said worked great for my wuxia campaign)but it shouldn't be default in D&D (in a game like SW it makes more sense because it's cinematic action/pulp.

Also, like, say you're running an AD&D campaign where a mid-to-high level party is attacking a goblin lair. Then, if you're like me, you might start ticking off goblins instead of counting out every one's hit points. But that's because there isn't that much difference between a 4 hp goblin and one that goes down in one hit. In 4e as I understand it you have the minions that go down instantly and the non-minions who last rounds and rounds, so it's really obvious and more gamey.

Quote from: CRKrueger;725662A Fire Giant Minion is antithetical to the very idea of a Fire Giant.  When you look in the dictionary under Dissociated Mechanics, you see Minion as a Prime Example.

Any Mook rules, by definition, are metagame mechanics.  No thanks.

Granted, you'll see HP, Armor Class, and most saving throw models right there next to them. Complaints about dissociated mechanics are pretty rich coming from any D&D player.

Quote from: LibraryLass;725670Granted, you'll see HP, Armor Class, and most saving throw models right there next to them. Complaints about dissociated mechanics are pretty rich coming from any D&D player.

This is an old and tired chestnut.

Please come up with some new material.

The main problem with fire giant minions is that the game mechanics assume that you'll only meet fire giant minions when you're high enough level for fire giants to not really be a threat. This means that either:
-The DM sets up the campaign in such a way that you'll only meet fire giants at such and such levels, only meet kobolds at such and such levels, etc. etc.
-The DM stats up fire giants as solos if you're low level, as elites if you're a bit higher level, as normal monsters if you're pretty high and as minions if you're really high level.

Both don't sound like much fun for me.

The first assumes that the DM is the one controlling what sorts of things the players get in fights with while the PCs are just along for the ride. The second sounds very cumbersome unless, again, the DM is able to plan out what the PCs are doing and going to fight ahead of time.

Hard to make either approach work for a more sand box style of play.

Quote from: LibraryLass;725670most saving throw models right there next to them.

From an historical perspective, wonder where the notion of a "saving throw" came from.

Quote from: Sacrificial Lamb;725634In 1e, a house cat is a legitimate problem for a low-level guy.

I never cease to be amazed by the apparent epidemic of referees who, if the number of times this comes up on the intrewebs is in any way correlated with actual gamers playing actual games, killed characters with house cats.

'cause, without that epidemic of actual play instances, this is nothing more than third-degree system wankery.

Quote from: Black Vulmea;725678I never cease to be amazed by the apparent epidemic of referees who, if the number of times this comes up on the intrewebs is in any way correlated with actual gamers playing actual games, killed characters with house cats.

'cause, without that epidemic of actual play instances, this is nothing more than third-degree system wankery.

Exactly. I always thought that "[Insert harmless sounding thing] thing could potentially kill a low level character!" was just a vaguely amusing result of trying to represent organic reality via sets of numbers.

It's not a particularly interesting or notable game flaw as long as you assume some human intelligence on the DM side of the screen.

I had a Druid 1 encounter a kobold in D&D3 and get her ass kicked by it. Not because of any stupidity on the Druid's part, the dice just hated her that night. I have never seen so many low rolls in one evening.

That is the closest I can come to the killer housecat model.

Quote from: Black Vulmea;725678I never cease to be amazed by the apparent epidemic of referees who, if the number of times this comes up on the intrewebs is in any way correlated with actual gamers playing actual games, killed characters with house cats.

'cause, without that epidemic of actual play instances, this is nothing more than third-degree system wankery.

I think that more of it comes from, "I rollled a shitty character, so my character will go off and pick a fight with a house cat. Time to reroll."