TheRPGSite

So, I've come full circle. I'm back with my first love - D&D.

This is my "why". It's important for me to share, as my hope is to provide insight into the mind of a habitual system-addict, manic seeker of the "perfect medium complexity depth because #feelings" RPG and perhaps help other manic-addicts like myself find some peace.

Recently I dusted off a game system I had explored almost a year ago, dug in a little deeper and found new inspiration to jump in head long. The system's fiddly-bits abound, and I was dazzled by the fiddly-bits because I'm easily dazzled by them. I believed that fiddly-bits would give player's and myself a needed "depth" of options to make game-play more fun. I wanted "medium complexity" because I thought lighter games didn't cover all the options needed to make a game feel "complete".

Before this new religion, I had dusted off another favorite game and started up a campaign with it. It is a more "gritty" and "realistic" system, with attention to details in both character creation and combat. I hoped this game would add the "feeling" I'm looking for. Of course, trying to identify this "feeling" wasn't so important as seeking it...

In the course of my campaign I've struggled with new players learning the system, running combats with many participants, shoe-horning magic into my vision of how it works, and encouraging players when their characters seemed less heroic than they had initially hoped.

In the course of prepping the new game, making 12 characters for a con I would later not be able to attend, came more revelations. In addition, I found a play test group for a similar game as my new one, and played a more complex game and then spent the better part of 2 hours discussing with that GM the merits of lighter, faster systems and trying to figure out what we NEEDED the damn fiddly-bits for. It was an enlightening evening. It's been an enlightening year really.

In short I came to a conclusion. I wasn't having fun. Worse, I didn't feel like my player's were having fun either. This is generally not good. I have had some personal revelations I share below;

Revelation one: I don't like making characters in games with lots of fiddly bits. Also, I'm pretty sure none of the players I have roped into my games like it either. They put up with me, but they would rather just get on with it. Complexity does not equal "depth" in the ephemeral way I was hoping to find it. It's also REALLY annoying. This revelation was like discovering (and eliminating) that strange buzz you never realized was giving you migraines.

Revelation two: Complexity adds useless time to doing EVERYTHING in the game which detracts from actually playing the game. Looking back at all the complexity my "perfect medium complexity depth because #feelings" games introduce into play has added zero fun to the games. In fact, it detracts from them. Instead of playing in a natural fashion we're stopping to figure out rules that generally come to the same conclusions as the faster games. Also, I personally don't bring a lot of the minutiae of these games into play anyways, so it's really a lot of wasted space and time (both on paper and in my brain).

Revelation three: My most successful games have been with D&D (and the like). I'm sure other light games in the OSR movement would serve some of those same purposes. I like the basic structure of it. I like the stuff I'm reading in the OSR. I feel like I've held on to stubborn "dislikes" of D&D-isms based on habit. Most of my issues are with the way players approached them. I'm smarter and wiser now. Instead of using rules like a bible I can use them like a framework. I've been doing that all along anyways, why use a more complicated framework? Abstract is good. The game just needs to move! Looking back at all the things I think I needed, I am just not seeing how they added any fun. Being able to just "get into it" has had way more impact.

Revelation four: Complex games take longer to prep, which detracts from accomplishing the prep. I run a hybrid sandbox + events style, and I like to have various things ready to pull as I "improvise" through various encounters and reactions to player choices. Not only do complex systems make it harder to prep, they make it harder to improvise. I need to be quick on my feet. This has cost me loads of personal time.

Revelation five: I'm not as digital as I once thought I should be. I'm feeling like the computer is getting in the way of me engaging the game. I'm faster with 3-ring binders, physical books, notes, a GM screen and 3x5 cards. Maybe I'm more old-school than I thought, but I'm seriously going to ditch my digital for an analog table. I thought maybe music would be fun, but it's also just distracting. I just need people and imagination! It's more fun to me. It will also make playing in the retirement home after the apocalypse MUCH easier...

Revelation six: I'm bat shit crazy. It's important to recognize your problems so you can address them, right? Don't worry, I think these revelations are the first steps in me fixing this. :-)

So, I've explored the OSR stuff and have read D&D 5e and decided to stop chasing this strange obsession with "perfect medium complexity depth because #feelings" down the rabbit hole. Instead I'm going to focus on running games and creating for them. At this moment those games are going to be D&D (5e) or like games. No more complex games. I'm going to focus on the fun. Complexity is not fun for me.

I'm actually feeling good about this decision. Not in my usual "let's form a cult in my mind and pursue this idea with manic devotion!!" kind of hyper good, but the calm good of a real epiphany.

Thanks for reading my diatribe. I'm really excited to have my feet under me again.

Yeah, I had that "come to Jesus" moment a few years ago myself. After a while I realized after all the fine tuning was said and done I was just adding noise to the signal. All I really cared about was the signal, the extra speakers and wire set up just delayed the party.

Now I don't sweat a rulebook like I used to. But also, especially going back and re-reading my old pre-2000 books, they were nowhere as overburdened as I made them out to be either. For some weird reason I just fell into the habit of turning all the features on, like what everyone else did, as obviously more is better. Looking back, so much was optional, or far more open to campaign interpretation, that my dream system pursuit was merely rebelling against ghosts.

I guess in one's youth, or on the internet, it is easy to take a hobby too seriously.

That's pretty much why I don't like D&D 3.x.  I came back to D&D for much of the same reasons you did, having been a GURPS guy for 15-20 years, but found that 3.x really just added in all of the complexity I was trying to get away from.

My realization was that my perfect RPG is D&D, just a little less complicated than 3/4.
But only a little.

Unpacking that out, I've tried player-driven, different declaration/action resolution, much simpler, much more complex, point based, effect based design, etc etc.
And while all of those have neat elements, I mainly learn something I bring back to, essentially, D&D.

Why D&D?

Actually its lack of complexity is a big draw to me. At its core even AD&D is very streamlined a system. It flows so damn well. From there you can add in as many options as you want, or never use a single one. So much of what detractors bitch incessantly about is stuff that is very situational and their "better" game system oft turns out to be horrendously more complex.

Also why I like Star Frontiers and now 5e D&D.

Quote from: trechriron;810969The game just needs to move!

I feel similarly, and for the above reason.  We really like our game to move quickly, so we play a game that requires almost no rulebook reference and we roll for as few things as possible (attack and damage, I roll for reactions, ability checks for unique actions). That game, for us, is D&D (Basic/Expert or OD&D).  All the uniqueness comes from a complex story that develops over time, rather than rules complexity.

Welcome to the club. What are your favorite systems right now?

If you want to play something D&D-esque and have a rules-light system, then I want to recommend Hellfrost or Shaintar. Both SW fantasy settings.

My revelation was this:

Revelation one: The pool of players God has seen fit to place in my vicinity are devote non-readers. They will not read. And therefore I can only run games that are no more complex to create characters in than can be explained aurally.

This puts quite a few games out of our grasp, 5E being on of them (unless I really wanted to hold their hands).

I butted heads with them for years about it before I finally had the revelation that I just needed to accept it as fact.

Quote from: trechriron;810969Revelation two: Complexity adds useless time to doing EVERYTHING in the game which detracts from actually playing the game. Looking back at all the complexity my "perfect medium complexity depth because #feelings" games introduce into play has added zero fun to the games. In fact, it detracts from them. Instead of playing in a natural fashion we're stopping to figure out rules that generally come to the same conclusions as the faster games. Also, I personally don't bring a lot of the minutiae of these games into play anyways, so it's really a lot of wasted space and time (both on paper and in my brain).

This is an important concept.

Every rule in a game should contribute to making the game "better". If a rule doesn't make a game "better", it is a waste of ink.

However, if we gave the same rulebook to a bunch of players, and asked them to highlight the rules that made the game worse, every book would come back different. And that's a good thing!

Quote from: trechriron;810969In short I came to a conclusion. I wasn't having fun. Worse, I didn't feel like my player's were having fun either. This is generally not good. I have had some personal revelations I share below

Yey! I'm glad you discovered this with your gaming. Most people never do.

I often like a few complex games like HERO System.

Still, for the most part I'm also leaning towards simpler games. Though for me, AD&D and its successors - including D&D5 - are definitely in the category of at least medium complexity, given that there are hundreds of pages of rules.

My move to lower complexity is towards games where the complete rules fit in a few dozen pages at most.

Quote from: jan paparazzi;811011Welcome to the club. What are your favorite systems right now?

If you want to play something D&D-esque and have a rules-light system, then I want to recommend Hellfrost or Shaintar. Both SW fantasy settings.

D&D 5e is what my group is switching to this weekend.

I have been and continue to really dig what Mr. Crawford is doing with his take on games. Stars Without Number, Other Dust, and the soon to be released Silent Legions (downloading my KS copy tonight!). Every time I crack 'em open I just want to run 'em!

I have played SW before. It's fun. With my new found attempt to "keep things simple" I may have to dust off some of my stuff and take another look. I really dig Deadlands as a setting, some fun stuff in there. Hellfrost looks super well done and I think I bought the Shaintar stuff just haven't read it yet. I was playing in Shaintar back when it was a Fuzion game! :-)

Actually, I recently picked up the Entropic Gaming System. It has a SW feel but uses hit points. I really like some of the choices in the game (including nabbing the Sorcery rules from Legend and tweaking them...). It's also OGL, so that's a bonus from a publishing perspective.

Quote from: jhkim;811037I often like a few complex games like HERO System.

Still, for the most part I'm also leaning towards simpler games. Though for me, AD&D and its successors - including D&D5 - are definitely in the category of at least medium complexity, given that there are hundreds of pages of rules.

My move to lower complexity is towards games where the complete rules fit in a few dozen pages at most.

I just can't into Hero. I want to, but I glaze over (even with Hero designer and all that right to game play). This is a problem because I know a guy who loves it and thinks it is nice and light and quick to play. The go to system of choice for a quick game.

(I'll let you read that again a few times)

Meanwhile, learning other systems is pushing this GM/Player out of the comfort zone (even something I think is simple, Like Marvel Heroic/Cortext). This leads me to question familiarity and ease of use with a system and how that plays into OPs #feelings.

I really want to like Fate, but every version I've read just doesn't quite sit right in various different ways.

I need to look at Fate 2 at some point.

The lack of opportunity to game has limited how much I've worked at kitbashing my own, and 5e is probably my go-to low energy choice if I do get a gaming chance.

Hey Trechiron, was HARP the latest one you're referring to?  I loves me some SWN, but I have to represent by throwing up the horns for RQ6, have you tried that?

Quote from: BarefootGaijin;811049I just can't into Hero. I want to, but I glaze over (even with Hero designer and all that right to game play). This is a problem because I know a guy who loves it and thinks it is nice and light and quick to play. The go to system of choice for a quick game.

(I'll let you read that again a few times)

Meanwhile, learning other systems is pushing this GM/Player out of the comfort zone (even something I think is simple, Like Marvel Heroic/Cortext). This leads me to question familiarity and ease of use with a system and how that plays into OPs #feelings.

  I don't think what your friend says about HERO is that different from what Omega said upthread about AD&D. :) Familiarity and internalizing a system count for a lot in games, IMO, more than we may sometimes give credit for.

I've never believed in a Perfect System. Not even subjectively. All that matters is whether a system works well enough for one's group. Some might work better than others depending on setting, genre and players, to be sure, but so long as what you're using works well enough there's no reason to uproot the game and throw off everyone's groove so one of you can chase the bloody dragon.

I suppose I was lucky in a sense; I grew up gaming with an older brother who absolutely believed in the Perfect System. Over the years he ran games for us we must have tried at least a dozen different published systems plus a bunch of homebrews and custom adaptations. I can't begin to remember how many games we started, how many characters we made that everyone had just started really getting into when he'd discover some new hotness and we'd scrap everything and start again from square one. Meanwhile all the players cared about was slaying the dragon, saving the barmaid and splitting up the loot over ales back at the tavern.

On the one hand, it sucked to see so many games and characters go nowhere. On the other hand, I've never felt any urge to chase the dragon because I had a front row seat to someone else doing it. Altogether, I'll call it a win.

Re: D&D specifically, my preference is for Earthdawn (which was basically just FASA's attempt to make D&D make sense), but excepting 4e D&D has generally been perfectly serviceable to the task of having quasi-medieval fantasy adventures with a minimum of unimportant crap getting in the way. In particular, the more I read about 5e the more I like it; if it weren't for the cost of entry and the fact my group is a fair way into the first leg of a new campaign I'd totally be advocating we pick it up and drop Pathfinder.

Becoming more and more convinced here that Microlite-20 is all I'll ever need. Many of the sessions I've really liked have used that system. That said, I can see using Barbarians of Lemuria and its pulp equivalent, Dicey Tales, to cover many different types of games. Nothing simpler than 4 stats and career-based skills--roll 2d6, hit a 9. That's as simple as it gets, really.

Is there a good microlite 20 with simple magic?

Most of the ones are like 'minimal load fighter, thief, cleric/mu... oh, AND ALL THESE SPELLS.'

Funny that you want to lose complexity so settled on d&d 5e. That is a bit like wanting a simple sandwich and settling on turkey and crispy American bacon with chargrilled artichokes and a rocket salad on German rye bread with french Dijon mayonnaise and a strip of rochforte cheese. Toasted.... on one side.

If I want a simple system I will take the amber diceless engine and use 4 or 5 genre appropriate stats and some powers. Rules fit onto 2 sides of a4. Run this with star wars, musketeers, fables, whole load of shit.
Or try a tristat 2d6 target 8 game. Rules take up about a page.

2bits of bread, bacon, splash of ketchup...... sorted

Quote from: Armchair Gamer;811061I don't think what your friend says about HERO is that different from what Omega said upthread about AD&D. :) Familiarity and internalizing a system count for a lot in games, IMO, more than we may sometimes give credit for.

You are quite right. The above point I skimmed over, but that is certainly the general feeling I get.

Quote from: Will;811079Is there a good microlite 20 with simple magic?

Most of the ones are like 'minimal load fighter, thief, cleric/mu... oh, AND ALL THESE SPELLS.'

If you stick to the short lists in the Purest Essence, that's pretty simple. I've stuck to those basic spells in almost every iteration.

Quote from: CRKrueger;811057Hey Trechiron, was HARP the latest one you're referring to?  I loves me some SWN, but I have to represent by throwing up the horns for RQ6, have you tried that?

Yes and yes. :-) We were using Legend, but combat was trying. Just more details than we need. RQ6 is sexy and well designed and wonderfully written. Perhaps someday I'll give it a try again. It's actually not super complicated, but I would need to figure out a good "lots of bad guys" vs. the PCs system. For what I'm doing right now, and what I want to do to get back to FUN (for me) is play D&D 5e.

Quote from: jibbajibba;811080Funny that you want to lose complexity so settled on d&d 5e. ...

2bits of bread, bacon, splash of ketchup...... sorted

First, I own several Tri-Stat games. It's nifty, but I'm convinced the point-buy nature of character generation will trigger my revelation that I am NOT enjoying complex character generation. I don't like Amber Diceless RPG.(please don't hate on me, it's just not my cup of tea...)

Second, complexity is absolutely subjective! For me 5e is simpler than most of the games I've been "falling in love with". It also lines things up for character creation in a clear, simple manner. It has a broad audience, long-term history and popular appeal. I can modify it based on both the solid core and my previous OGL experience. I have a larger potential pool of players and a larger potential audience for my work. It's like a fuzzy happy WIN WIN in my manic obsessive rattled brain. :-)

So, there's more to this than just "settling" on a game. I had an epiphany that coalesced into "why are you fighting this Trentin? It's right in front of you!" kind of a moment. I see the fun in this game again.

I'm strongly considering, if I ever get around to running 5e, to just use Basic with a few things from the core game (namely, more archetypes and backgrounds)

QuoteI feel like I've held on to stubborn 'dislikes' of D&D-isms based on habit. Most of my issues are with the way players approached them.

That's pretty much been my discovery as well... carried over to realizing rules don't matter anywhere near as much as the people I play with.

D&D will never be my go-to game, that's BRP, but I'm playing lots of D&D of various sorts these days and it's grand to have let go and just be happy playing a game.

Quote from: Will;811116I'm strongly considering, if I ever get around to running 5e, to just use Basic with a few things from the core game (namely, more archetypes and backgrounds)

If I ever end up running 5e (not likely) then I'd be looking at the same... keep Backgrounds but no feats (I'd toss out skills as well) and go bare minimum... fast and loose.

Who the hell eats Bacon with Ketchup?

I guess it depends on one's idea of complexity. For myself I felt 4e was really simple and laid out in such a way to make things incredibly easy to adjudicate and play compared to the many - table referencing that I found in AD&D or the more fiddling rules of 3.5. Obviously YMMV.

Back about ten years ago I ran OD&D for my old gaming group as a lark.  Then I ran it a few more times, then when I lived in New York I ran it a few more...

... and at some point I realized, "This game is fun!"

REVELATION SEVEN:  This game is fun.

With WOTC's reissuing of at least some of the old stuff, it's available again for not a lot of money (I can't remember all the versions other than brown box, but the others are pretty cheap.)  And it's a fun game.

And that's all I really care about any more.  Which leads to

REVELATION EIGHT:  D&D IS A GAME.  If you treat "What will make a fun game that plays well" your primary lens, OD&D is an awesome game.

Quote from: CRKrueger;811124Who the hell eats Bacon with Ketchup?

*British person raises his hand and waves*

Though a good brown sauce would win 9/10.

Quote from: Batman;811129I guess it depends on one's idea of complexity. For myself I felt 4e was really simple and laid out in such a way to make things incredibly easy to adjudicate and play compared to the many - table referencing that I found in AD&D or the more fiddling rules of 3.5. Obviously YMMV.

Oh god yes. Give me "to hit armour class zero" and I can happily crunch numbers till the cows come home. Other people...? Like my Hero System thing inverted.

Quote from: CRKrueger;811124Who the hell eats Bacon with Ketchup?

The entire civilised world (well apart from the guys that can't eat pork obviously..... )!!!!!

Quote from: Simlasa;811122If I ever end up running 5e (not likely) then I'd be looking at the same... keep Backgrounds but no feats (I'd toss out skills as well) and go bare minimum... fast and loose.

I'll third this. The Basic rules have enough, but not too much to produce the game if want.  I think I'd like barbarians of lemuria's career system in place of skills, though. Maybe allow for multiple backgrounds would work for me?

I enjoy simple games, especially bare bones d&d.  However, I do have a fascination with complex games and feel that they do have their place.

It's an interesting thing that I myself actually consider any edition of D&D more complex than any edition of Warhammer or BRP based game*. I think often enough the perception of complexity of a given game, a game that we like to fall back to, will have more to do with the game we started with, or the game we played a lot of and loved it - therefore, learned the rules more so, than an actual complexity of lack of in the ruleset. If I had to choose D&D I'd stick with AD&D or 5e.

PS - bacon is Łada of cured meats any way. I'd eat it with ketchup if fancy strikes me for some ketchup.

*Mostly due to the extensive spell lists and the necessary tactics of the high - level casters.

Quote from: Simlasa;811122If I ever end up running 5e (not likely) then I'd be looking at the same... keep Backgrounds but no feats (I'd toss out skills as well) and go bare minimum... fast and loose.

There is an option for replacing skills with a broader competency in the DMG. You could make it into a really light game if you wanted to.

Does the DMG have any good options for simplifying class abilities?

Personally, those are more 'load' than skills.

Let me define complexity from my perspective:

1. Character creation has numerous fiddly bits like skill ranks, points, lots of options within choices, etc. So comparing HARP character creation to D&D5e, the latter is less complex. GURPS is more complex than basic D&D. I found that you could totally screw up a HARP character if you didn't know what you're doing. That seems much harder to do in 5e from my observations. This is also true of creating a BRP character to some extent. I'm feeling like the way D&D handles these "parts" of a character to be easier to deal with. If I need something else, I can customize or create those parts using the existing ones as guidelines.

2. Task resolution has numerous considerations, modifiers or procedures. Of course, most systems allow you to ignore the fiddly-bits, but IME when people choose a game system with fiddly-bits they are expecting some use of fiddly-bits, otherwise why choose that game? In my case, my current group is filled with several new players who could give seven fucks about fiddly-bits, so I'm bringing less fiddly-bits to begin with, so why did I choose that game?

3. Combat has numerous considerations, modifiers or procedures. Hit locations, hit points by location, weapon length, etc. can add extra details I'm not convinced add anything to the game (for me). New players don't choose complex maneuvers, or special combat actions. YMMV of course. But Legend combat is more complex than D&D 5e combat in my experience. Also, people would gain maneuvers and not really know what to choose, even after going over it several times.

Advantage/Disadvantage seems like a much faster way to handle the concept of modifiers than actual modifiers. Of course, 5e has some modifiers, but I'm confident you could ignore them in favor of Ad/Disad.

I like the amount of options in D&D 5e. I think it strikes a nice balance between complexity and play-ability. Is is less complex in the areas I was really questioning needed complexity, hence my "less complex" assessment.

Quote from: Rincewind1;811178It's an interesting thing that I myself actually consider any edition of D&D more complex than any edition of Warhammer or BRP based game*. I think often enough the perception of complexity of a given game, a game that we like to fall back to, will have more to do with the game we started with, or the game we played a lot of and loved it - therefore, learned the rules more so, than an actual complexity of lack of in the ruleset.

I never did mind-meld with D&D the way some folks have, despite it being my first RPG... it's just never been intuitive for me.
I wouldn't call OD&D/S&W/LL/LotFP/DCC 'complex' but I feel like I'm always re-learning D&D as I play/run it.

Quote from: dbm;811179There is an option for replacing skills with a broader competency in the DMG. You could make it into a really light game if you wanted to.

Oh! Thanks! I didn't know that. I'd assumed I'd just tie competencies into Backgrounds... but this sounds worth a look. I'll have to borrow the DMG again.

Quote from: Will;811180Does the DMG have any good options for simplifying class abilities?

Personally, those are more 'load' than skills.

There's no 'drag and drop' option like their is for replacing skills. But there are a couple of pages on modifying classes in general.

Quote from: Simlasa;811251Oh! Thanks! I didn't know that. I'd assumed I'd just tie competencies into Backgrounds... but this sounds worth a look. I'll have to borrow the DMG again.

It factors in both class and background. Simple, but I could see it working well if you are happy with fuzzy definition of a character's abilities.

My gaming career was informed by early D&D and ads for Call of Cthulhu in Dragon magazine. Fascinating ads! (Though I didn't manage to get my hands on any COC until teen years. Ahem)

But what I did was mostly free-form stuff I'd wing as we went along. I made a bunch of terrible oh so terrible games in college.

Eventually my game of choice settled on Call of Cthulhu for a while. I had lots of GURPS books, mainly for content.

But I avoided D&D. Everyone seemed to play it as the most dull, insane dungeon hack n slash ever, and I found the rules really inelegant.

Then one of my gamer buds married a woman who didn't like horror, 3e came out, and it's been mostly D&D since.

Bacon is both food and condiment. So obviously the civilized way to eat bacon is with more bacon. This logic is irrefutable!
:pundit:
(It also goes good with cheese... and just about everything else, too.)

and frankly Bacon is a perfect example of simple. It's simply Bacon. It's perfect with everything, tasty and uncomplicated. Like my gaming now.

I must be the only guy in America that doesn't care for bacon. I've tried it a bunch of times and while interesting it just doesn't grab me. I usually order sausage with my breakfast meal. I'll eat ham, I'll eat pork, not often though. I do like hotdogs. I guess I'm just not big on pig.

Last August I tried for the first time a bison sirloin steak, that was different and good. I'll order that again when I get the chance.

So... you're new gaming motto is saying, "It's all about the bacon"? I can get behind this. "Bacon!" rings well as a battle cry.

Bacon is cool in that it can mesh with so many foods: sweet, savory, you can have it in Chinese food and sushi (try that with cheese... nope).

Chocolate and bacon, candied bacon, maple bacon donuts...

Why veggie bacon? - Cholesterol is not fun for me

Maple syrup + bacon is the closest we'll get to nirvana. Not the band, the other one.

I feel I have to interject here... American bacon is not bacon. American bacon is the stuff you scrape out of the pan after you have cooked the bacon. Sure it has its place but its not bacon.

This is bacon .... (http://englishbreakfastsociety.com/style/images/art/BaconGuide.jpg)

A full discussion on teh merits of proper bacon can be found here -
http://englishbreakfastsociety.com/back-bacon.html

Likewise a proper bacon sandwich looks like this  -
(http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/62825000/jpg/_62825994_97978466thinkstock.jpg)

Quote from: BarefootGaijin;811049I just can't into Hero. I want to, but I glaze over (even with Hero designer and all that right to game play). This is a problem because I know a guy who loves it and thinks it is nice and light and quick to play. The go to system of choice for a quick game.

(I'll let you read that again a few times)

Well, if you were trying to DM AD&D with Gygaxian and 2nd Edition rules... yes.  :D

But while I prefer Hero to everything else, I started to get alienated by 6th Edition.  The point I made in my review at The Banning Place was (in so many words): Every edition of Hero System had added greater complexity, but that was to account for the greater range of things that characters could do.  But there's a difference between complicating things and complicating them unnecessarily.  And in my opinion, stuff like requiring people to buy at least two separate Combat Values as base stats- and then increasing the starting point totals to accommodate the need for more points- was complicating things unnecessarily.  And when you're trying to make your game appeal to veterans and people who were not previously into it, the last thing you want to do is complicate things unnecessarily.

Which I think touches on what trechiron was saying in the OP.

JG

I messed around with a bunch of different games, generally of higher complexity, over the last several years, and 5E DnD just fits the bill for me as well. It has the flexibility, the stability, the simplicity, and the level of detail that I'm comfortable with. I generally have so little time to game these days, that I need something that takes comparatively minimal time to throw together and run with. Probably because I've played several variations of DnD for over 30 years, it is extra easy to just "plug and play" with the game.

Quote from: Armchair Gamer;811061I don't think what your friend says about HERO is that different from what Omega said upthread about AD&D. :) Familiarity and internalizing a system count for a lot in games, IMO, more than we may sometimes give credit for.

I think at a certain point that internalization is equivalent to learning your native language.  Granted, there are plenty of gamers on a never-ending search for the next best game. But for a lot of folks, there are games that they just grok better than others.  HERO is it for me but I could have easily stuck with AD&D and that style of play back in the 80's if I had never had that first introduction to Champions.  The hardest part is finding like minded gamers to play with.  I totally agree with the OP with regards to using computers to game.  I work in IT.  When I game I want it to be in person, with friends or folks who could become friends. It should not feel like work, at all.  If it does I would rather just not game at all.

Quote from: jibbajibba;811344I feel I have to interject here... American bacon is not bacon. American bacon is the stuff you scrape out of the pan after you have cooked the bacon. Sure it has its place but its not bacon.

This is bacon ....

Ok, so you have better bacon.  Unfortunately, you guys completely ruin it by dousing it in ketchup.  The only proper bacon sandwich is the BLT.  :D

Quote from: CRKrueger;811632Ok, so you have better bacon.  Unfortunately, you guys completely ruin it by dousing it in ketchup.  The only proper bacon sandwich is the BLT.  :D

Bacon butty vs BTL ... only one way to solve this .... FIGHT!!!!!!!

I will happily eat all bacon samples to determine best bacon.

Quote from: Hyper-Man;811381I think at a certain point that internalization is equivalent to learning your native language.  Granted, there are plenty of gamers on a never-ending search for the next best game. But for a lot of folks, there are games that they just grok better than others.  HERO is it for me but I could have easily stuck with AD&D and that style of play back in the 80's if I had never had that first introduction to Champions.  The hardest part is finding like minded gamers to play with.  I totally agree with the OP with regards to using computers to game.  I work in IT.  When I game I want it to be in person, with friends or folks who could become friends. It should not feel like work, at all.  If it does I would rather just not game at all.

There's a lot of people who think that Hero is too complex but will happily use Palladium.
Go figure.

JG

Worst thing about Japan is that the bacon is a disgrace.
(http://i446.photobucket.com/albums/qq183/ajajaxson/DSC02248.jpg)

And they call themselves a civilised people?

Quote from: The_Shadow;811663Worst thing about Japan is that the bacon is a disgrace.

And they call themselves a civilised people?

I don't even want to ask about the prosciutto.

Quote from: jibbajibba;811646Bacon butty vs BTL ... only one way to solve this .... FIGHT!!!!!!!

Or better yet...GOOGLEFIGHT!!!!!!!
Done (http://www.googlefight.com/index.php?lang=en_GB&word1=Bacon+Butty&word2=BTL) and Done (http://www.googlefight.com/index.php?lang=en_GB&word1=Bacon+sarnie&word2=BTL) and just (http://www.googlefight.com/index.php?lang=en_GB&word1=Syria+Girl&word2=Paul+Ettin) for (http://www.googlefight.com/index.php?lang=en_GB&word1=syria+girl&word2=tracy+hurley) fun (http://www.googlefight.com/index.php?lang=en_GB&word1=Syria+Girl&word2=Topher).

Quote from: CRKrueger;811670I don't even want to ask about the prosciutto.

Actually you can get decent prosciutto and other imported smallgoods...but you can't (readily) get imported bacon, and the domestic stuff is not worth the name.

Quote from: The_Shadow;811710you can't (readily) get imported bacon, and the domestic stuff is not worth the name.

I am confused.

I don't remember American bacon being any different except in size.

Eating things in Japanese sizes keeps you happy, slim and sexy. :D
Eating in American sizes gives FAT GUT!

Quote from: The_Shadow;811710Actually you can get decent prosciutto and other imported smallgoods...but you can't (readily) get imported bacon, and the domestic stuff is not worth the name.

But between the Yakitori, sushi, sashimi, ramen, curry don and chicken teriaki you can survive a lack of bacon until you eventually give in and go to The Meat Guy.
When I was working in Japan I used to eat a lot of French stuff. There was a really great bistro in Marounuchi near the office ...hmmm...

Quote from: Enlightened;811712I am confused.

I don't remember American bacon being any different except in size.

Eating things in Japanese sizes keeps you happy, slim and sexy. :D
Eating in American sizes gives FAT GUT!

I've never had American bacon. I'm comparing Japanese to the English style mentioned upthread, which can be a centimetre thick.

Quote from: jibbajibba;811720But between the Yakitori, sushi, sashimi, ramen, curry don and chicken teriaki you can survive a lack of bacon until you eventually give in and go to The Meat Guy.
When I was working in Japan I used to eat a lot of French stuff. There was a really great bistro in Marounuchi near the office ...hmmm...

Yep Japanese food is so good, you feast on 100 great things and miss maybe one or two from back home. And I have ordered kangaroo from The Meat Guy.

Quite a threadjack...food is more interesting than D&D to me at this point...

Quote from: The_Shadow;811725I've never had American bacon. I'm comparing Japanese to the English style mentioned upthread, which can be a centimetre thick.

Ah, I get it.

In America, that's not called bacon. It's called ham.

Hmm, bacon.

Anyway, back to the topic please.

Quote from: Opaopajr;811286Bacon is both food and condiment.

If you used bacon as a condiment your girlfriend better not be Jewish.


...what?

I have created my DM Screen from The Worlds Best Game Screen.

I have printed out initiative cards, player cheat sheets, name tents, and condition cards for use at the table.

I have put away the computer stuff and repacked my "go box" for analog configuration.

Tonight, I finish printing out the Harn stuff I will use, organized it in 3-ring binders, and print out any other various things I may find handy.

Tonight I'm making a "session sheet" based on Harn watches to take notes on the shenanigans that certainly will follow tomorrow.

On SAT - 11am - I run my first 5e session, sans tech!!

Ahh, a GM who preps -- and even provides player reference aids! It's the little things that smoothes out and speeds up the experience. Good times, good times.

Quote from: The_Shadow;811725I've never had American bacon. I'm comparing Japanese to the English style mentioned upthread, which can be a centimetre thick.

Hmm. That sounds more like gammon than bacon.

And brown sauce is the correct accompaniment for bacon, not red!

Optional chrome is what I like best. Not "must never use" or "must use always" but a seasoning to add as appropriate.

With most rules sets, this really comes to GM attitude: really the master of the game, or slave to assumptions from who-knows-where? It's not so common that something's actually going to 'break' (or not work at all) without the whole kaboodle of factors for this and that.

First game last night with 5e! Went super well. I'm completely analog now.

However, a few people had phones and laptops to take notes. I hated it. Now they are distracted!!

I'm going to institute a "no electronic devices" rule. I will of course propose it and discuss first, but I feel like it's detracting from the game.

It was nice being able to just run the game without worrying about rules. It just flows now. I have no idea SERIOUSLY no idea what I was thinking before. How the hell did I get so far down that rabbit whole?

I will get some photos up of my new "GM Rig" to show it off.

I think some people can handle a device for, say, character sheets, but frankly unless they can take notes VERY fast I'd say they should use a notepad and organize their notes electronically when they get home.

I found it helpful in 3e to have html copies of various references, for ease and for not lugging a cubic meter of books to a game. And sometimes a die roller, because I'd often not have dice or borrow or whatever.

But, yeah, I'd say 'no phones/devices' is not a bad policy.

"No electronics" would essentially mean I can't play, as the only analog interaction I have with the system is rolling dice. Books, character sheets, notes (which I type out with a physical keyboard); all on my tablet.

That said, the only apps I have open are rules compendium, character sheet and notes (plus a spell list if I'm playing a caster and possibly Google Drive for setting info), the tablet is asleep unless I'm actively looking something up and my phone is silent and/or not even on my person. When it's game time I'm gaming. Everything else can go hang.

All that being said, my ability to maintain a singular focus on the game despite the potential distractions does seem to be somewhat greater than others' even in my own group, so I can certainly understand wanting to curtail the use of such devices at a table where you can't necessarily trust your players to be as obsessive as I am. :D

Quote from: woodsmoke;812568"No electronics" would essentially mean I can't play, as the only analog interaction I have with the system is rolling dice. Books, character sheets, notes (which I type out with a physical keyboard); all on my tablet.

Indeed. The tablets aren't the problem; the problem is that the players aren't paying attention, the tablets are just what they're using to distract themselves. If they didn't have them, it would be something else; talking amongst themselves, doodling, flicking through books, etc.

I've also found some stuff is more distracting or time consuming than others.

My iPad, for example, only runs one app at a time, so the delay to switch between PDFs of rules and die roller and character sheet was non-negligible.

I think there's a legitimate argument to be made for the ease of access to potential distractions provided by electronic devices. Idly flipping through books or doodling are readily apparent to everyone at the table and easy for a DM to call out the offender. That's doubly true for chatter. Someone browsing Facebook or playing Candy Crush on his phone is generally sitting quietly and not distracting those around him, and thus more difficult to spot until it's the player's turn and he has no idea what's going on.

A couple of the people in my group are generally solid players as long as the DM takes away their smartphones when the game starts. If they're allowed to hang on to them, though, they're guaranteed to be an exercise in frustration and futility all damn night.

None of which is to say those who are determined to find something, anything to occupy their attention whenever it isn't their turn won't succeed in that endeavor, of course, but that's why I don't game with goldfish people.

Quote from: woodsmoke;812611I think there's a legitimate argument to be made for the ease of access to potential distractions provided by electronic devices. Idly flipping through books or doodling are readily apparent to everyone at the table and easy for a DM to call out the offender. That's doubly true for chatter. Someone browsing Facebook or playing Candy Crush on his phone is generally sitting quietly and not distracting those around him, and thus more difficult to spot until it's the player's turn and he has no idea what's going on.

A couple of the people in my group are generally solid players as long as the DM takes away their smartphones when the game starts. If they're allowed to hang on to them, though, they're guaranteed to be an exercise in frustration and futility all damn night.

None of which is to say those who are determined to find something, anything to occupy their attention whenever it isn't their turn won't succeed in that endeavor, of course, but that's why I don't game with goldfish people.

Its not an 8th grade math test....

If the players aren't paying attention its not because they have phones or tablets or books it's because the GM isn't keeping their attention.  Rule of thumb you shoudl be asking each player what they are doing at least once every five minutes. If you spend more than 5 minutes on a solo "section" then you need to learn to break those sections up and come back to the others once every five minutes. There are some exceptions. A PC has been captured and locked in a cell with no hope of escape or anyone to get information out of etc but here is a PC is goign to be out of the loop for a long while I woudl get them to run the monsters for me ro take on an NPC.

Quote from: Ladybird;812570Indeed. The tablets aren't the problem; the problem is that the players aren't paying attention, the tablets are just what they're using to distract themselves. If they didn't have them, it would be something else; talking amongst themselves, doodling, flicking through books, etc.

I kind of disagree, based on watching what happened in our group when everyone started bringing in tablets all of a sudden, ostensibly to have rules ready to hand. There was a sudden increase in 'Have you seen that Youtube video about _______?' or 'Hey lemme show you this new app!'. They hadn't been nearly that unfocused before... even the GM was doing it. They're just too much of a temptation.
A couple of us pointed it out, the devices stopped appearing on the table and it all went back to normal.
Our current group has one guy who needs to cut the texting umbelical to his girlfriend, but other than that there's a general rule against having those things in hand unless it's to check a rules PDF (or the spell lists I've made).

Quote from: jibbajibba;812643Its not an 8th grade math test....

If the players aren't paying attention its not because they have phones or tablets or books it's because the GM isn't keeping their attention.  ...

Quote from: Ladybird;812570Indeed. The tablets aren't the problem; the problem is that the players aren't paying attention, ...

And in this case you both would be absolutely wrong.

One of the players taking notes on his laptop actually STOPPED the game from continuing so he could "catch up" typing notes.

The mage PC was caught in a force cage trap fighting an IMP for his life. I was switching round by round between him and the PCs outside the trap fighting the monsters. As soon as the action turned from him, he was on his tablet.

I'm not going to allow people to read books either. There will be no dice fidgeting. I do move between players and engage them constantly. The electronic devices are still in hand.

People these days are HOOKED to our online feeds. The internet, Facebook, Instagram...

I don't think it's unreasonable to ask a group of adults to unplug for 5 hours once a week. They only need a PHB, their character sheet, dice, writing utensil, and a notepad of paper. Maybe some graph paper if they are into that kind of mapping.

As a professional computer nerd, desktop publisher and avid InterTubes Junkie, this was not some arbitrary "evil DM" decision to poo poo on fun times. It was based on an OBSERVATION of undesirable behavior.

All of my friends were tapping away at their phones anytime they weren't immediately engaged but it didn't seem to negatively impact anything. Should I have been more upset by the phones?

'Not immediately engaged'?

How about enjoying the thrill of what your friends are doing, or considering information based on other actions?

Maybe it works for your group, but it sounds to me like people who have to be reminded what enemies are still up every time their turn comes up.

Online games are a bit more susceptible too because the internet is up and running as part of the game... and know one can see that you've muted the mic and are watching Youtube... or maybe left the room completely to go have a smoke/piss/nap.

It does all again come under 'don't play with jerks'... but having the internet up and running as part of the game adds to the likelihood of temptation.

There's also a fair point that if it takes 15 minutes for your turn to come up, and little of what happens impacts you, and it's not entertaining to listen to, that it's kind of unreasonable to expect people not to disengage.

It's a two-way street.  If the GM is doing their best to keep people engaged, then people should do their best to stay engaged.

Quote from: Will;812731'Not immediately engaged'?

How about enjoying the thrill of what your friends are doing, or considering information based on other actions?

Maybe it works for your group, but it sounds to me like people who have to be reminded what enemies are still up every time their turn comes up.

It is possible; I was so busy juggling the rules and figuring out how to handle each action that I wasn't able to pay attention to how much THEY were paying attention.

Part of it is that some of the players like to strategize for like two hours over one turn of combat, and only move when everybody has figured out the master plan. So the others would inevitably break out the phones. Maybe if I made it so that everybody could only speak for themselves and had to act within a few minutes, it would be different.

Also they would spend lots of time strategizing during sneaking around and planning ambushes and such. But isn't that part of the game?

I might be a little oversensitive due to past trauma (sniff).

Last group, we would have to explain to people constantly what was going on because they just WOULD NOT FUCKING PAY ATTENTION.

It wasn't devices, mind you, but they'd start chatting, whatever, and when we'd ask them to stop, they'd say 'but it's not my turn! Ok, I, uh, shoot an arrow at the minotaur.'
"... I just downed the minotaur."
'Oh, ok, the snake girl.'
"The yuan-ti was killed last turn."
'Well, whichever is closest to me.'


Ok, it might not be fair to blame the distraction, exactly, for the distracted.

But dammit, people.

Quote from: robiswrong;812737little of what happens impacts you

If what happens with another character doesn't impact you, then why are you playing to begin with?  If they fail, isn't that going to impact you?  If they die, won't you have less chance of living yourself?  I'll have to admit, I find this thought process basically antithetical to roleplaying games.

Sure, some people are so self-absorbed that they literally tune out the second the spotlight drifts from them.  Me, I run roleplaying games with adults, and don't have this problem.

We all need our beer and pretzels night, where we lay off the campaign, that's why god invented board, card, and story games. :D

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;812730...that's why god invented board, card, and story games. :D

That would be Baby Jesus sir.

Quote from: CRKrueger;812743If what happens with another character doesn't impact you, then why are you playing to begin with?  If they fail, isn't that going to impact you?  If they die, won't you have less chance of living yourself?  I'll have to admit, I find this thought process basically antithetical to roleplaying games.

In some games, turns can take so long that paying attention through somebody deliberating over minutae, which will most likely not impact you (since it is unlikely they will die during their turn), can definitely try patience.

The solution to that may well be "run a game that doesn't have that kind of crap happening".  I won't disagree with that.  I'm just saying that I've been in some 4E games, for instance, where your turn would take 20 minutes to come around through all of the players, and any decisions you made would probably need to be rethought by the time it gets to you.

The turn length is definitely one of the reasons I don't play 4E any more, but I definitely have more understanding for people getting distracted in a situation where that occurs than I would in a game where turns last 20 seconds or so.

Quote from: trechriron;812717And in this case you both would be absolutely wrong.

One of the players taking notes on his laptop actually STOPPED the game from continuing so he could "catch up" typing notes.

The mage PC was caught in a force cage trap fighting an IMP for his life. I was switching round by round between him and the PCs outside the trap fighting the monsters. As soon as the action turned from him, he was on his tablet.

I'm not going to allow people to read books either. There will be no dice fidgeting. I do move between players and engage them constantly. The electronic devices are still in hand.

People these days are HOOKED to our online feeds. The internet, Facebook, Instagram...

I don't think it's unreasonable to ask a group of adults to unplug for 5 hours once a week. They only need a PHB, their character sheet, dice, writing utensil, and a notepad of paper. Maybe some graph paper if they are into that kind of mapping.

As a professional computer nerd, desktop publisher and avid InterTubes Junkie, this was not some arbitrary "evil DM" decision to poo poo on fun times. It was based on an OBSERVATION of undesirable behavior.

Okay so my games don't work like that.

If you have a group of PCs doign a thing and a mage fighting for his life. We switch between the two. the Player gets 20 seconds tops to decide what they do when I get to them.

DM: Okay you guys can hear shouting from the other side of the door.
PCs: Um ...
DM: What you doing? Time is critical here.
Pcs: We hack at it with our axes
DM; Okay mage next round. Imp has initiaitive still it snarls at you and leaps towards you displaying an array of suprisingly sharp teeth. 4 a miss . snaps at you but you manage to duck out of the way just in time.
Mage : hold on i need to check my powers:
Dm: No time. 10, 9, 8, 7 ...
Mage: Okay can I prep a shock spell.
DM: Sure
Mage: Hit him with that etc
DM: back to the guys outside I want stretgh rolls from all of you

You just keep it moving. All the time. My games are constantly like this unless the Players are discussing some tactical option. If I see a player not enaginging in that discussion I will lay in another thing.

Dm: Okay Frank. others are discussing the best way to sacle the city walls but you get a kind of eiree feeling, make a check
Frank: what against?
DM: I will let you know if you make it :)
Frank: 8
DM: What's your wisdom modifier Frank?
Frank: +2
etc

Did you say which D&D? There have been so many now.

How do you guys feel about giving the players time to discuss strategy during battle or before it?

Running the turns so fast is good for keeping up the pace, but don't you think it kind of cheats the players on making a satisfying plan or figuring out what's going on?

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;812761How do you guys feel about giving the players time to discuss strategy during battle or before it?

Running the turns so fast is good for keeping up the pace, but don't you think it kind of cheats the players on making a satisfying plan or figuring out what's going on?

Speaking as a GM, in a more tactical game, I'm totally okay with players making plans before a battle begins - when their characters would have time to make those plans.

I find it kind of obnoxious that players spend 5 minutes deciding what they're going to do in a six second turn.

Also, battle strategy discussions tend to involve all of the players, while individual action decisions more generally (based on observation) involve only the player making the decision.  YMMV, of course.

Quote from: Matt;812760Did you say which D&D? There have been so many now.

5th Edition from WOTC. With the madness rules stolen right out of Silent Legions. :-)

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;812761How do you guys feel about giving the players time to discuss strategy during battle or before it?

Running the turns so fast is good for keeping up the pace, but don't you think it kind of cheats the players on making a satisfying plan or figuring out what's going on?

As long as they are engaged, sure. But if it drags on TOO long, I'm going to interrupt with an attack roll or something. Characters should determine some common tactics ahead of time. Otherwise, they get to soak in some CHAOS!!  :-)

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;812761How do you guys feel about giving the players time to discuss strategy during battle or before it?

Running the turns so fast is good for keeping up the pace, but don't you think it kind of cheats the players on making a satisfying plan or figuring out what's going on?

In character if they have time they can create a plan. But they are in character and the world moves... so if they are doing it from behind a tree as the orcs walk up, I might give they 3  minutes.....

Now my guys in sing plan a lot they took out an entire military base with 3 guys a security drone and 3 d-grenades, but the planning was done at their own base and once they arrived they had no choice but to improvise as the situation developed.

Quote from: robiswrong;812746In some games, turns can take so long that paying attention through somebody deliberating over minutae, which will most likely not impact you (since it is unlikely they will die during their turn), can definitely try patience.

The solution to that may well be "run a game that doesn't have that kind of crap happening".  I won't disagree with that.  I'm just saying that I've been in some 4E games, for instance, where your turn would take 20 minutes to come around through all of the players, and any decisions you made would probably need to be rethought by the time it gets to you.

The turn length is definitely one of the reasons I don't play 4E any more, but I definitely have more understanding for people getting distracted in a situation where that occurs than I would in a game where turns last 20 seconds or so.

God that sounds horrid! In my 4E games turns take about a minute to a minute and a half. We usually finish up a battle between 35 and 40 minutes depending on how people are rolling and how well they use their brains and tactics (pretty much like out v3.5/Pathfinder games). 5E is a bit better here, cutting most encounters to 25 minutes or so, give or take. The characters are still pretty low in level and I can only assume that when they hit 10+ level the encounters will be just as long. No biggie, that's sort of our "Wheelhouse".

Quote from: Batman;812792God that sounds horrid! In my 4E games turns take about a minute to a minute and a half. We usually finish up a battle between 35 and 40 minutes depending on how people are rolling and how well they use their brains and tactics (pretty much like out v3.5/Pathfinder games). 5E is a bit better here, cutting most encounters to 25 minutes or so, give or take. The characters are still pretty low in level and I can only assume that when they hit 10+ level the encounters will be just as long. No biggie, that's sort of our "Wheelhouse".

5e is defintiely manageable. I ran a combat on top on a temple. 30 goblins, 5 orcs, 1 shaman and a giant spider versus 5 PCs (paladin, Sorcerer, Warlock, Thief, Fighter) took maybe 45 mins running to maybe 10 rounds

A quick update:

The analog thing is not working for me. I'm back to a limited digital setup (no music). I can take notes faster, actually read them later, and searching for things in PDF is faster. :-) I guess I'm a computer nerd to the bone!

I am loving 5e... BUT I'm also missing some of the fiddly-bits like a grittier damage system. In fact, the HP thing is probably my only real gripe left over from the past. I don't like escalating HP and I absolutely loathe the way they work in 5e. I was thinking of emulating something from GURPS, and then I read the whole Dungeon Fantasy line and now I'm wishing I would have just ran GURPS. :-O

I'm going to prep a GURPS fantasy game using some of the ideas from DF. I'm going to create some pre-gens with explanation sheets so I can haul it around with me to conventions and have something to quick to play.

Still torn as to keep the group on 5e or convert to GURPS.

What things do you need to search for in a PDF?

My table is generally a no-rule-books zone to prevent anyone from wasting game time looking up Table 4 Subclause 13 Exclusion 6(b).

Quote from: trechriron;812717There will be no dice fidgeting.

I thought that was only a problem with my players! We also have a "no toys at the table" rule, so that shows you the age of some of them...

Quote from: Matt;837283What things do you need to search for in a PDF?

Hmm - I thought the same. Can't you get by with a DM screen or similar?

Quote from: trechriron;837260I am loving 5e... BUT I'm also missing some of the fiddly-bits like a grittier damage system. In fact, the HP thing is probably my only real gripe left over from the past. I don't like escalating HP and I absolutely loathe the way they work in 5e.

Weird as to me the 5e damage system seems to be more gritty than older versions, O/BX/A. Theres all these status effects and they can be pretty debilitating at times. Prone being one I've run into firsthand. Other than that its rolling about as it allways has. And the DMG even has optional rules for adding on. Personally I DO NOT WANT more rules and more complexity dragging down combat.

HP in 5e works alot like it has since the start. The only big difference is that the PCs start off with max HP at level 1. But still roll for it the rest. And if you really want its perfectly fine to roll for starting HP too. 5e just makes it more apparent that HP=fatigue. And short rests and recovery dice are both finite and situational and also easy enough to remove.

I love Dark Heresy...in theory. I ran a demo recently and the chargen exhausted me into boredom. I had players new to system and it ran okay, but the whole time I kept wishing I had just run Inquisition 40k using SWN or Traveller.

I recently returned to an old RPG writing project and just shook my head at all the fiddly bits that I had been designing. Instead of tossing the project, I typed FAST SIMPLE FUN as a header and now I am putzing with each kewl idea I had and wondering how I can keep the kewlness, but hack apart the complexity.

As for D&D, its odd but 0e and 4e work for me. 0e because its my uber malleable speed demon. 4e because I love tactical skirmish minis combat - although once the Conan boardgame from Kickstarter arrives, that may do the job just fine for that itch.

Quote from: cranebump;811090If you stick to the short lists in the Purest Essence, that's pretty simple. I've stuck to those basic spells in almost every iteration.

I've gotten more mileage out of that packet than any other system I can think of. M20 is just awesome.

Play what you want to, of course.

Even I have enjoyed a bit of D&D from time to time, but I started out with TFT, which is simpler than D&D, but I like the grit and deadliness and tactical combat. After we played TFT for about 5-6 years as teens, though, we knew it so well that the combats were too predictable and seemed flawed and gamey. We started adding horribly complex house rules. When GURPS Man to Man came out, it addressed the issues we'd had, but in a playable way. About 4 years later, I was starting to want house rules for GURPS, but then I was better at making house rules, and I could run GURPS for new players without having to have them look at the rules - I'd just translate everything into and out of English.

Even when I started with TFT and then tried D&D, I've always not been able to get over the lack of tactical combat and the presence of piles of hitpoints in D&D. I get frustrated and disappointed that almost all the CRPGs are based on D&D hitpoints and levels, but at least it keeps me from spending more time on them.  To each their own. Even my tastes fluctuate.

Quote from: Matt;837283What things do you need to search for in a PDF?
...

Quote from: JoeNuttall;837288... Hmm - I thought the same. Can't you get by with a DM screen or similar?

HarmWorld maps, locations and names. I can search a spell in a book (like my Book of Lost Spells...). :-)

I use my GURPS books all the time on the computer, it's AMAZINGLY handy to search a PDF. I basically use a laptop as a GM screen.

Quote from: trechriron;837309I use my GURPS books all the time on the computer, it's AMAZINGLY handy to search a PDF. I basically use a laptop as a GM screen.

I thought you were running D&D5E?
 

Quote from: trechriron;837309HarmWorld maps, locations and names. I can search a spell in a book (like my Book of Lost Spells...). :-)

Is HarmWorld a bit like Harn World, but deadlier?
I've not run someone else's setting for many years as it was too much like hard work.

Quote from: trechriron;837260In fact, the HP thing is probably my only real gripe left over from the past. I don't like escalating HP and I absolutely loathe the way they work in 5e.

You can see from my sig I have the same issue with D&D!

Quote from: trechriron;837260A quick update:

The analog thing is not working for me. I'm back to a limited digital setup (no music). I can take notes faster, actually read them later, and searching for things in PDF is faster. :-) I guess I'm a computer nerd to the bone!

I am loving 5e... BUT I'm also missing some of the fiddly-bits like a grittier damage system. In fact, the HP thing is probably my only real gripe left over from the past. I don't like escalating HP and I absolutely loathe the way they work in 5e. I was thinking of emulating something from GURPS, and then I read the whole Dungeon Fantasy line and now I'm wishing I would have just ran GURPS. :-O

For the most part, I like what hp do. It's a simple way to get a number of bad blows avoided before a figure goes down. I like that the figure gets worn down at the same time, and that bigger things cost more (as opposed to the "Energizer bunnies" in other systems, continually avoiding massive damage entirely as easily as a scratch).

To add a bit of random mayhem without completely scrapping the system, one can add a chance of bypassing it. For an extreme example, Empire of the Petal Throne gave a 1/200 chance of death from any attack, if the attacker is trying for a kill (and of course using something appropriate).

That helps explain why attaining 10th level in EPT is an awesome accomplishment, but maybe you don't want dead pcs piling up like that. You can throw in whatever "gritty" you like at whatever frequency seems appropriate.

Basically, add a "save" to use hp (or "critical hit" to bypass them).

QuoteI'm going to prep a GURPS fantasy game using some of the ideas from DF. I'm going to create some pre-gens with explanation sheets so I can haul it around with me to conventions and have something to quick to play.

Still torn as to keep the group on 5e or convert to GURPS.

IDK, I do like the new 5E D&D but I have to say I really have gotten pretty use to Monte Cooks way of doing things, I really like Numenera, to me its simpler than 5E.

I haven't looked at 5e too closely (just a read through of Basic) but how about

a) Make the HP curve even flatter. Possibly more at level 1 (although 5e is already pretty generous, isn't it?) but a much smaller bonus per level.

b) I assume you've already considered critical hits and wound/vitality systems. Also treating damage below 0 hp as "grievous" requiring a roll on a table a la Elric/Stormbringer.

c) But have you considered special effects a la Legend/RQ 6? I.e., on sufficiently high to-hit roll, instead of getting a crit, you can force the opponent to take a step in some direction, or be disarmed, or stunned or whatever. Possibly give the defender the option to take the special effect penalty OR suffer double damage.

Interesting thread

I too have gone back to no digital anything. It's all books and stationary, maps and stuff. Anything else detracts from that story telling ambience.

Also, 13th Age was easier to prep and run than 5ed for me (apart from those pesky Icon rolls)

Quote from: Skarg;837302Play what you want to, of course.

Fuck that! You will play whatever the Internet says is trendy and you will like it!!

And then the Internet will tell you something else is trendy and you will like that and never admit to liking whatever the Internet previously told you to like!

Damn, do I need to explain everything to you noobs???

:)

Heck I played a wargame recently where the Elves and Dwarfs and Skaven used the same stats as the humans... we just used different figures!

I don't know whether that makes me so bleeding edge it should hurt, or so 70s I should buy some flares and a tank top, but it sure felt good...

Quote from: Momotaro;837443Heck I played a wargame recently where the Elves and Dwarfs and Skaven used the same stats as the humans... we just used different figures!

I don't know whether that makes me so bleeding edge it should hurt, or so 70s I should buy some flares and a tank top, but it sure felt good...

You should by the flares regardless. You should also grow a cop/gay/'70s porn mustache.

Quote from: JoeNuttall;837356I thought you were running D&D5E?

I am, every other week! I will likely be running it for some time to come.
 

Quote from: JoeNuttall;837356Is HarmWorld a bit like Harn World, but deadlier?

Hah! What a wonderfully apropos typo...  actually with D&D5e thus far it is somewhat more heroic.

Quote from: JoeNuttall;837356I've not run someone else's setting for many years as it was too much like hard work.

Making is solid setting can be hard work too. :-)

Quote from: JoeNuttall;837356You can see from my sig I have the same issue with D&D!

I think GURPS is going to be a good "base" for me. I really love the Eberron setting, so I'm thinking of creating my own GURPS approach for it borrowing from Dungeon Fantasy and other sources.

Quote from: Matt;837454You should by the flares regardless. You should also grow a cop/gay/'70s porn mustache.

Photos if I do ;)

Glad you're back.