Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;812761How do you guys feel about giving the players time to discuss strategy during battle or before it?

Running the turns so fast is good for keeping up the pace, but don't you think it kind of cheats the players on making a satisfying plan or figuring out what's going on?

Speaking as a GM, in a more tactical game, I'm totally okay with players making plans before a battle begins - when their characters would have time to make those plans.

I find it kind of obnoxious that players spend 5 minutes deciding what they're going to do in a six second turn.

Also, battle strategy discussions tend to involve all of the players, while individual action decisions more generally (based on observation) involve only the player making the decision.  YMMV, of course.

Quote from: Matt;812760Did you say which D&D? There have been so many now.

5th Edition from WOTC. With the madness rules stolen right out of Silent Legions. :-)

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;812761How do you guys feel about giving the players time to discuss strategy during battle or before it?

Running the turns so fast is good for keeping up the pace, but don't you think it kind of cheats the players on making a satisfying plan or figuring out what's going on?

As long as they are engaged, sure. But if it drags on TOO long, I'm going to interrupt with an attack roll or something. Characters should determine some common tactics ahead of time. Otherwise, they get to soak in some CHAOS!!  :-)

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;812761How do you guys feel about giving the players time to discuss strategy during battle or before it?

Running the turns so fast is good for keeping up the pace, but don't you think it kind of cheats the players on making a satisfying plan or figuring out what's going on?

In character if they have time they can create a plan. But they are in character and the world moves... so if they are doing it from behind a tree as the orcs walk up, I might give they 3  minutes.....

Now my guys in sing plan a lot they took out an entire military base with 3 guys a security drone and 3 d-grenades, but the planning was done at their own base and once they arrived they had no choice but to improvise as the situation developed.

Quote from: robiswrong;812746In some games, turns can take so long that paying attention through somebody deliberating over minutae, which will most likely not impact you (since it is unlikely they will die during their turn), can definitely try patience.

The solution to that may well be "run a game that doesn't have that kind of crap happening".  I won't disagree with that.  I'm just saying that I've been in some 4E games, for instance, where your turn would take 20 minutes to come around through all of the players, and any decisions you made would probably need to be rethought by the time it gets to you.

The turn length is definitely one of the reasons I don't play 4E any more, but I definitely have more understanding for people getting distracted in a situation where that occurs than I would in a game where turns last 20 seconds or so.

God that sounds horrid! In my 4E games turns take about a minute to a minute and a half. We usually finish up a battle between 35 and 40 minutes depending on how people are rolling and how well they use their brains and tactics (pretty much like out v3.5/Pathfinder games). 5E is a bit better here, cutting most encounters to 25 minutes or so, give or take. The characters are still pretty low in level and I can only assume that when they hit 10+ level the encounters will be just as long. No biggie, that's sort of our "Wheelhouse".

Quote from: Batman;812792God that sounds horrid! In my 4E games turns take about a minute to a minute and a half. We usually finish up a battle between 35 and 40 minutes depending on how people are rolling and how well they use their brains and tactics (pretty much like out v3.5/Pathfinder games). 5E is a bit better here, cutting most encounters to 25 minutes or so, give or take. The characters are still pretty low in level and I can only assume that when they hit 10+ level the encounters will be just as long. No biggie, that's sort of our "Wheelhouse".

5e is defintiely manageable. I ran a combat on top on a temple. 30 goblins, 5 orcs, 1 shaman and a giant spider versus 5 PCs (paladin, Sorcerer, Warlock, Thief, Fighter) took maybe 45 mins running to maybe 10 rounds

A quick update:

The analog thing is not working for me. I'm back to a limited digital setup (no music). I can take notes faster, actually read them later, and searching for things in PDF is faster. :-) I guess I'm a computer nerd to the bone!

I am loving 5e... BUT I'm also missing some of the fiddly-bits like a grittier damage system. In fact, the HP thing is probably my only real gripe left over from the past. I don't like escalating HP and I absolutely loathe the way they work in 5e. I was thinking of emulating something from GURPS, and then I read the whole Dungeon Fantasy line and now I'm wishing I would have just ran GURPS. :-O

I'm going to prep a GURPS fantasy game using some of the ideas from DF. I'm going to create some pre-gens with explanation sheets so I can haul it around with me to conventions and have something to quick to play.

Still torn as to keep the group on 5e or convert to GURPS.

What things do you need to search for in a PDF?

My table is generally a no-rule-books zone to prevent anyone from wasting game time looking up Table 4 Subclause 13 Exclusion 6(b).

Quote from: trechriron;812717There will be no dice fidgeting.

I thought that was only a problem with my players! We also have a "no toys at the table" rule, so that shows you the age of some of them...

Quote from: Matt;837283What things do you need to search for in a PDF?

Hmm - I thought the same. Can't you get by with a DM screen or similar?

Quote from: trechriron;837260I am loving 5e... BUT I'm also missing some of the fiddly-bits like a grittier damage system. In fact, the HP thing is probably my only real gripe left over from the past. I don't like escalating HP and I absolutely loathe the way they work in 5e.

Weird as to me the 5e damage system seems to be more gritty than older versions, O/BX/A. Theres all these status effects and they can be pretty debilitating at times. Prone being one I've run into firsthand. Other than that its rolling about as it allways has. And the DMG even has optional rules for adding on. Personally I DO NOT WANT more rules and more complexity dragging down combat.

HP in 5e works alot like it has since the start. The only big difference is that the PCs start off with max HP at level 1. But still roll for it the rest. And if you really want its perfectly fine to roll for starting HP too. 5e just makes it more apparent that HP=fatigue. And short rests and recovery dice are both finite and situational and also easy enough to remove.

I love Dark Heresy...in theory. I ran a demo recently and the chargen exhausted me into boredom. I had players new to system and it ran okay, but the whole time I kept wishing I had just run Inquisition 40k using SWN or Traveller.

I recently returned to an old RPG writing project and just shook my head at all the fiddly bits that I had been designing. Instead of tossing the project, I typed FAST SIMPLE FUN as a header and now I am putzing with each kewl idea I had and wondering how I can keep the kewlness, but hack apart the complexity.

As for D&D, its odd but 0e and 4e work for me. 0e because its my uber malleable speed demon. 4e because I love tactical skirmish minis combat - although once the Conan boardgame from Kickstarter arrives, that may do the job just fine for that itch.

Quote from: cranebump;811090If you stick to the short lists in the Purest Essence, that's pretty simple. I've stuck to those basic spells in almost every iteration.

I've gotten more mileage out of that packet than any other system I can think of. M20 is just awesome.

Play what you want to, of course.

Even I have enjoyed a bit of D&D from time to time, but I started out with TFT, which is simpler than D&D, but I like the grit and deadliness and tactical combat. After we played TFT for about 5-6 years as teens, though, we knew it so well that the combats were too predictable and seemed flawed and gamey. We started adding horribly complex house rules. When GURPS Man to Man came out, it addressed the issues we'd had, but in a playable way. About 4 years later, I was starting to want house rules for GURPS, but then I was better at making house rules, and I could run GURPS for new players without having to have them look at the rules - I'd just translate everything into and out of English.

Even when I started with TFT and then tried D&D, I've always not been able to get over the lack of tactical combat and the presence of piles of hitpoints in D&D. I get frustrated and disappointed that almost all the CRPGs are based on D&D hitpoints and levels, but at least it keeps me from spending more time on them.  To each their own. Even my tastes fluctuate.

Quote from: Matt;837283What things do you need to search for in a PDF?
...

Quote from: JoeNuttall;837288... Hmm - I thought the same. Can't you get by with a DM screen or similar?

HarmWorld maps, locations and names. I can search a spell in a book (like my Book of Lost Spells...). :-)

I use my GURPS books all the time on the computer, it's AMAZINGLY handy to search a PDF. I basically use a laptop as a GM screen.

Quote from: trechriron;837309I use my GURPS books all the time on the computer, it's AMAZINGLY handy to search a PDF. I basically use a laptop as a GM screen.

I thought you were running D&D5E?
 

Quote from: trechriron;837309HarmWorld maps, locations and names. I can search a spell in a book (like my Book of Lost Spells...). :-)

Is HarmWorld a bit like Harn World, but deadlier?
I've not run someone else's setting for many years as it was too much like hard work.

Quote from: trechriron;837260In fact, the HP thing is probably my only real gripe left over from the past. I don't like escalating HP and I absolutely loathe the way they work in 5e.

You can see from my sig I have the same issue with D&D!

Quote from: trechriron;837260A quick update:

The analog thing is not working for me. I'm back to a limited digital setup (no music). I can take notes faster, actually read them later, and searching for things in PDF is faster. :-) I guess I'm a computer nerd to the bone!

I am loving 5e... BUT I'm also missing some of the fiddly-bits like a grittier damage system. In fact, the HP thing is probably my only real gripe left over from the past. I don't like escalating HP and I absolutely loathe the way they work in 5e. I was thinking of emulating something from GURPS, and then I read the whole Dungeon Fantasy line and now I'm wishing I would have just ran GURPS. :-O

For the most part, I like what hp do. It's a simple way to get a number of bad blows avoided before a figure goes down. I like that the figure gets worn down at the same time, and that bigger things cost more (as opposed to the "Energizer bunnies" in other systems, continually avoiding massive damage entirely as easily as a scratch).

To add a bit of random mayhem without completely scrapping the system, one can add a chance of bypassing it. For an extreme example, Empire of the Petal Throne gave a 1/200 chance of death from any attack, if the attacker is trying for a kill (and of course using something appropriate).

That helps explain why attaining 10th level in EPT is an awesome accomplishment, but maybe you don't want dead pcs piling up like that. You can throw in whatever "gritty" you like at whatever frequency seems appropriate.

Basically, add a "save" to use hp (or "critical hit" to bypass them).

QuoteI'm going to prep a GURPS fantasy game using some of the ideas from DF. I'm going to create some pre-gens with explanation sheets so I can haul it around with me to conventions and have something to quick to play.

Still torn as to keep the group on 5e or convert to GURPS.