Quote from: CRKrueger;811124Who the hell eats Bacon with Ketchup?

The entire civilised world (well apart from the guys that can't eat pork obviously..... )!!!!!

Quote from: Simlasa;811122If I ever end up running 5e (not likely) then I'd be looking at the same... keep Backgrounds but no feats (I'd toss out skills as well) and go bare minimum... fast and loose.

I'll third this. The Basic rules have enough, but not too much to produce the game if want.  I think I'd like barbarians of lemuria's career system in place of skills, though. Maybe allow for multiple backgrounds would work for me?

I enjoy simple games, especially bare bones d&d.  However, I do have a fascination with complex games and feel that they do have their place.

It's an interesting thing that I myself actually consider any edition of D&D more complex than any edition of Warhammer or BRP based game*. I think often enough the perception of complexity of a given game, a game that we like to fall back to, will have more to do with the game we started with, or the game we played a lot of and loved it - therefore, learned the rules more so, than an actual complexity of lack of in the ruleset. If I had to choose D&D I'd stick with AD&D or 5e.

PS - bacon is Łada of cured meats any way. I'd eat it with ketchup if fancy strikes me for some ketchup.

*Mostly due to the extensive spell lists and the necessary tactics of the high - level casters.

Quote from: Simlasa;811122If I ever end up running 5e (not likely) then I'd be looking at the same... keep Backgrounds but no feats (I'd toss out skills as well) and go bare minimum... fast and loose.

There is an option for replacing skills with a broader competency in the DMG. You could make it into a really light game if you wanted to.

Does the DMG have any good options for simplifying class abilities?

Personally, those are more 'load' than skills.

Let me define complexity from my perspective:

1. Character creation has numerous fiddly bits like skill ranks, points, lots of options within choices, etc. So comparing HARP character creation to D&D5e, the latter is less complex. GURPS is more complex than basic D&D. I found that you could totally screw up a HARP character if you didn't know what you're doing. That seems much harder to do in 5e from my observations. This is also true of creating a BRP character to some extent. I'm feeling like the way D&D handles these "parts" of a character to be easier to deal with. If I need something else, I can customize or create those parts using the existing ones as guidelines.

2. Task resolution has numerous considerations, modifiers or procedures. Of course, most systems allow you to ignore the fiddly-bits, but IME when people choose a game system with fiddly-bits they are expecting some use of fiddly-bits, otherwise why choose that game? In my case, my current group is filled with several new players who could give seven fucks about fiddly-bits, so I'm bringing less fiddly-bits to begin with, so why did I choose that game?

3. Combat has numerous considerations, modifiers or procedures. Hit locations, hit points by location, weapon length, etc. can add extra details I'm not convinced add anything to the game (for me). New players don't choose complex maneuvers, or special combat actions. YMMV of course. But Legend combat is more complex than D&D 5e combat in my experience. Also, people would gain maneuvers and not really know what to choose, even after going over it several times.

Advantage/Disadvantage seems like a much faster way to handle the concept of modifiers than actual modifiers. Of course, 5e has some modifiers, but I'm confident you could ignore them in favor of Ad/Disad.

I like the amount of options in D&D 5e. I think it strikes a nice balance between complexity and play-ability. Is is less complex in the areas I was really questioning needed complexity, hence my "less complex" assessment.

Quote from: Rincewind1;811178It's an interesting thing that I myself actually consider any edition of D&D more complex than any edition of Warhammer or BRP based game*. I think often enough the perception of complexity of a given game, a game that we like to fall back to, will have more to do with the game we started with, or the game we played a lot of and loved it - therefore, learned the rules more so, than an actual complexity of lack of in the ruleset.

I never did mind-meld with D&D the way some folks have, despite it being my first RPG... it's just never been intuitive for me.
I wouldn't call OD&D/S&W/LL/LotFP/DCC 'complex' but I feel like I'm always re-learning D&D as I play/run it.

Quote from: dbm;811179There is an option for replacing skills with a broader competency in the DMG. You could make it into a really light game if you wanted to.

Oh! Thanks! I didn't know that. I'd assumed I'd just tie competencies into Backgrounds... but this sounds worth a look. I'll have to borrow the DMG again.

Quote from: Will;811180Does the DMG have any good options for simplifying class abilities?

Personally, those are more 'load' than skills.

There's no 'drag and drop' option like their is for replacing skills. But there are a couple of pages on modifying classes in general.

Quote from: Simlasa;811251Oh! Thanks! I didn't know that. I'd assumed I'd just tie competencies into Backgrounds... but this sounds worth a look. I'll have to borrow the DMG again.

It factors in both class and background. Simple, but I could see it working well if you are happy with fuzzy definition of a character's abilities.

My gaming career was informed by early D&D and ads for Call of Cthulhu in Dragon magazine. Fascinating ads! (Though I didn't manage to get my hands on any COC until teen years. Ahem)

But what I did was mostly free-form stuff I'd wing as we went along. I made a bunch of terrible oh so terrible games in college.

Eventually my game of choice settled on Call of Cthulhu for a while. I had lots of GURPS books, mainly for content.

But I avoided D&D. Everyone seemed to play it as the most dull, insane dungeon hack n slash ever, and I found the rules really inelegant.

Then one of my gamer buds married a woman who didn't like horror, 3e came out, and it's been mostly D&D since.

Bacon is both food and condiment. So obviously the civilized way to eat bacon is with more bacon. This logic is irrefutable!
:pundit:
(It also goes good with cheese... and just about everything else, too.)

and frankly Bacon is a perfect example of simple. It's simply Bacon. It's perfect with everything, tasty and uncomplicated. Like my gaming now.

I must be the only guy in America that doesn't care for bacon. I've tried it a bunch of times and while interesting it just doesn't grab me. I usually order sausage with my breakfast meal. I'll eat ham, I'll eat pork, not often though. I do like hotdogs. I guess I'm just not big on pig.

Last August I tried for the first time a bison sirloin steak, that was different and good. I'll order that again when I get the chance.

So... you're new gaming motto is saying, "It's all about the bacon"? I can get behind this. "Bacon!" rings well as a battle cry.

Bacon is cool in that it can mesh with so many foods: sweet, savory, you can have it in Chinese food and sushi (try that with cheese... nope).

Chocolate and bacon, candied bacon, maple bacon donuts...