I don't give a shit about what's in the starter set. I'm not a starter.

I'm a vet. Therefore i care not about the arguments for or against what is contained in a starter set.

Likewise, i have a computer - therefore i'm gonna download Basic and play the fuck out of it. Maybe even go the whole hog if i fancy it and actually buy stuff.

How'd you like them apples?

Quit stealing my plan!!!!

Quote from: Endless Flight;753168The starter set is more like a "dip your toes" set, with the basic PDF being the "wader" and the books being the "dive in headfirst" part.

The starter may be the equivalent of a monetized demo.

Though in a way buying the Starter is paying the way for the Basic.

Really really depends on what the depth of the adventure setting is.

I wish theyd stop playing coy with the details in bits and pieces and just lay it all out plain.

The way its been going so far leads to way too much guesswork and wrong conclusions.

Quote from: One Horse Town;753176How'd you like them apples?

How dare you enjoy yourself. You know who else enjoyed himself? HITLER.

can i join your game pls

They are creating a buzz in the market for sure though.

Quote from: Benoist;752952Actually, this is you 5vengers who need to step back for a minute and think about the scope of this issue, along with the disproportionate response you're offering on forums like this one in order to defend what amounts to a fuck up.

Somebody criticized the 5e starter set. Not the end of the world. Really.

You were extremely aggressive in your tone.  People responded in kind AND YOU RAN AWAY FOR A DAY because you were so disgusted.

Your ability to self-analyze is for shit lately Benoist.  It was never what you were saying, but instead how you were saying it, that got you the reaction that it did.  You were righteously indignant and they over the top outraged when people slapped you back down, and now you're in denial and pretending it was everyone else over reacting to your minor benign critique which was nothing of the sort based on the tone you chose to use.

You want to talk about disproportionate responses? Look in the fucking mirror my friend.  You did not judge this one well at all.

Quote from: One Horse Town;753176Likewise, i have a computer - therefore i'm gonna download Basic and play the fuck out of it. Maybe even go the whole hog if i fancy it and actually buy stuff.

How'd you like them apples?

Im still getting use out of the playtest pack.

Quote from: Benoist;752957See? Disproportionate responses like this one.

Hey, dumb dumb, he was not responding to you, he conveniently quoted the person he was responding to, that person's name does not in any way resemble your name, and the person had just talked about things dying in a fire.  Hence his reaction.

You really are way over-reacting to this whole thing - so much so you cannot apparently even read straight who is talking to who about what anymore.  Perhaps take a break?

Quote from: jeff37923;753139...an example of what I mean by character concept is having my PC be a teenage Bard who is entranced by all of the stories and poems of adventure and derring-do which is why he decided to become an adventurer, through playing in several adventures, the Bard would grow older and wiser by learning that those adventures he thought were romantic are actually bloody and painful in reality. The character would have been my take on the Hero's Journey and response to it.

It would be tough to do that level of depth with a pre-gen.

I don't really see why, or at a minimum I don't see why you can't with just the tiniest bit of fiat.

"Can my character be a teenager?"

"Um, so long as you don't try and change the stats because of that, sure!"

Also, 'Bard' is a problem, even with the chargen in Basic:

QuoteIt runs from levels 1 to 20 and covers the cleric, fighter, rogue, and wizard, presenting what we view as the essential subclass for each. It also provides the dwarf, elf, halfling, and human as race options.

So, e.g. a Gnomish Bard is going to require the PHB.

But in my mind this is totally okay.

Quote from: Omega;753180The starter may be the equivalent of a monetized demo.

Though in a way buying the Starter is paying the way for the Basic.

Psychologically, I think it makes more sense to sell the demo than give it away for free, for the target audience.  There are those out there who will buy a cheap introductory product, get hooked, and then buy everything else.

The first purchase decision underscores the rest that follow.

Quote from: mcbobbo;753190"Um, so long as you don't try and change the stats because of that, sure!"

That's the thing; even if you're not going into TGD-esque levels of detail, those stats matter and will affect how well the character does things, and thus how you can play him.

Quote from: Ladybird;753200That's the thing; even if you're not going into TGD-esque levels of detail, those stats matter and will affect how well the character does things, and thus how you can play him.

I disagree.  The disparity between the teenage bard scores and the adult bard scores - when you take away the intervening levels - should be close to nil.  Particularly if 'teenage' doesn't mean prepubescent.

Note here how Pathfinder considers 15 years old to be an adult - http://www.d20pfsrd.com/basics-ability-scores/more-character-options/young-characters

I checked the Rules Cyclopedia and didn't find any rules for young characters at all.

Point being, 'teenage' isn't statistical.  Neither is 'bard'.  So, what's left?

Crippleware...now with PDFs!!!

If a RPG Starter Set is designed to turn newbs into DMs, then this Starter is missing the section on how a newb DM helps newb players to make their very first characters.

Having a PDF (or an SRD) is no substitute for Chargen in the Starter where the DM learns how to lead a group in creating their 1st level characters. If you want to put all leveling up stuff as a PDF (or SRD), that's whatever, but there is NO REASON to not have 1st level chargen in your Starter set.

I am not against pregens for quick play, but if the free White Wolf quickstarts can put chargen in their pamphlets, I am not buying any arguments that WotC can't do it in their $13 box.

Even the Descent boardgame has chargen, not pregens.

Quote from: Spinachcat;753281Crippleware...now with PDFs!!!

If a RPG Starter Set is designed to turn newbs into DMs, then this Starter is missing the section on how a newb DM helps newb players to make their very first characters.

Having a PDF (or an SRD) is no substitute for Chargen in the Starter where the DM learns how to lead a group in creating their 1st level characters. If you want to put all leveling up stuff as a PDF (or SRD), that's whatever, but there is NO REASON to not have 1st level chargen in your Starter set.

I am not against pregens for quick play, but if the free White Wolf quickstarts can put chargen in their pamphlets, I am not buying any arguments that WotC can't do it in their $13 box.

Even the Descent boardgame has chargen, not pregens.

You're showing your age sir.


This approach even allows ME access (I have no computer but I do have a smartphone and access to a computer and printer).

DM: "Hey guys, wanna try this new game I just got?  It's D&D.  Super easy.  I'll be the DM, who basically runs the adventure, and you guys choose which of these characters you want."

"Sure, why not.  I'm game."


....hours pass...

"That's pretty cool, but next time I want to play the dwarf fighter."

DM: "How about one better.  How would like to make your own character?  Dwarf fighter or cleric or elf rogue or whatever."

"You can do that?  Yeah, I'd totally be up for that.  How?"

DM: "Simple.  Here's the link if you want to download it.  Choose your race and class, and just print out the parts you want.  Or I printed them out earlier if you want to flip through them."*




Again, ideally it would be nice to have it in the starter box, but these days?  It's really not that big of a deal to have it online accessible.

*the cost for someone to print off the free basic version is going to be cheaper than buying the book at a store, so it's not like you're out a bunch of money you wouldn't normally be if they made the basic game hardcopy.