TheRPGSite

So over on Pundit's blog, he continues his non-argument with Benoist that people who believe that character generation is essential to an RPG - even a RPG start box - are full of it. The idea is that to accord such centrality to character generation is tantamount to being beholden to character optimization ('oh nooos, Benoist is one of them 'denners').

Pundit is not so stupid as to conflate generation with optimization, so the pride of place has to go with the 'according centrality to' part of the sentiment he's protesting.

I rest my case in Benoist's favour (who'd have thought I live to see that day) on the sheer basis of an awesome post (http://greywulf.net/files/Greywulfs_Guide_to_Chargen.pdf) written in 2010 for 4th edition D&D. Yes 4th edition, you crisgrogs! Without further fanfare, here it is.

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Greywulf's Guide to 4e Character Generation by Hand

Generating your first character in any role-playing game is a rite of passage. It's the initial step of commitment to the game, an investment of time and precious brain cells into this wonderful hobby. Before then you may well have played using a pre-generated character, or followed the Choose Your Own adventure in the Red Box D&D Essentials Starter Kit to get started. Or your first character may well be your very first step into the hobby, your gateway to exploring dungeons, ruined keeps and the borderlands. But this isn't about how to generate your first character. Or the one after that. Or even the one after that. I'm going to assume that you've generated a fair number of characters by now, most likely using the Character Builder. I'm also going to assume that somewhere along the way you've forgotten what character generation is. Of course, you may just have stumbled onto this little tome by accident (or design) and you really are just about to generate your very first character. If that's the case, I welcome you.


You are at the beginning of a wonderful adventure. So whether your next character is your first, or your hundredth, I hope you find something of use within. We're going to look at how to do one thing, and do it well: how to generate a Fourth Edition Character entirely by hand. This is, in my opinion, something of a dying art with people moving en masse toward generation tools such as Character Builder rather than spending time and care to finely craft their virtual personna. It's the difference between microwaving a meal, and cooking one by hand from the raw ingredients you have available. While both have a place in the kitchen, microwaving teaches nothing about culinary skills – you just set a timer, press a few buttons then waiting for the ping.

Character Builder, like the microwave, is a terrific tool. It's very useful if you want something quick and filling in the shortest time possible. But there's nothing quite like a freshly prepared PC scrawled in your own hand to really hit the spot. What I aim to do is encourage you to create your next character using nothing more than a pencil and scratch paper. Along the way you'll hopefully learn more about how the Fourth Edition rules really work, what cunning synergies are hidden in the game, and more about crafting the character you really want to play. It will, I hope you find, be a much more rewarding experience.

What Character Generation is, and isn't

Starting at the very basics, Character Generation is two words. Character, and Generation. Generation is the act of putting together the numbers. It's what tools such as Character Builder do very well indeed, providing all of the options in a list and automatically calculating all of the numerical values. Generating your Player Character involves running down a checklist of items that every PC needs – attributes, race, class, abilities, feats, skills and equipment – and filling in the blanks. Character is something much more intangible. Character is what you bring to the table. It is your PC's personality, his backstory and quirks. It is how he (or she) dresses, what food they like and where they were brought up. It's the difference between playing “Justin the 1st level Human Fighter with STR 18” and “Justin Swallowdrake the farmer who had his lands confiscated by the Church of Pelor for failing to pay his tithe due to a failed harvest and is now driven to looting old ruins in the hope of paying off the debt and reclaiming his land”. Character is rarely quantifiable in numerical game terms (though it should guide stat, feat and skill selection – see below), but it is by far the most important but neglected part of Character Generation.

Tools such as Character Builder over-emphasise and simplify Generation, but at the cost of leaving little room for the Character part of the equation to develop. It is possible to create characters with great personality with Character Builder but I'd argue that for every thousand optimised but soulless PCs generated using it, there's probably just one gem of a Character (capital C). Creating a character by hand switches the emphasis from Character Generation to Character Generation. By spending time to create the PC, you're getting to know them more fully. Rather than just passing them by in a mouse click or two, Character Generation becomes more like a conversation with your virtual alter ego. Each step along the way you're learning more about them – what their Training in Stealth really means, why they chose that Spell or why they favour the Mace over any other weapon. Creating your first hand-made PC I'm going to walk you through the steps required to create a fully formed Player Character entirely by hand. But first, I'll let you into a little secret. It's really not that hard to do.

What you need

1. A pencil and eraser
2. Paper
3. A copy of the Player's Handbook

What you don't need
1. A D&D Insider subscription
2. A copy of Character Builder
3. A computer
4. An Internet connection
5. Pre-printed character sheets
6. Any other sourcebooks or supplements
7. D&D Essentials
8. Errata […]

About the Errata
Errata is a myth, and like all myths it's a pretty big one. Provided you're not playing in a Living campaign or bringing a character to a game convention (where a consistently agreed upon set of rules between total strangers is necessary), your well-worn copies of the Player's Handbook, Dungeon Master's Guide and Monster Manual are just as relevent and up-to-date as they need to be […]. Quite frankly, life is too short to worry about errata.

The Three Stages of Character Generation

1. Initial concept
2. Generation
3. Fine-tuning

Each character begins with a spark, an initial idea of what kind of character you want to play. It can be extremely vague or as well-defined as you can come up with. Many times the vague ones turn out to be the best characters as you take them through the journey of their creation as they're the ones which literally (ok, virtually literally) take shape as you fill in their attributes and personal history. It pays to avoid using Class names when thinking about your concept (unless you really want to play a Rogue, for example) as this automatically limits your options at a point where your imagination should be at its most free. Even if there's an obvious Class to match your concept, think about what the other Classes could offer and you might come up with an interesting twist. For example, if your concept is “wilderness protector” it's tempting to turn straight to the Ranger – but what about a Cleric who is a protector of the wilderness (a Cleric of Melora, perhaps), a Fey Pact Warlock, a Fighter who has been declared an outlaw, a stealthy Rogue who flits from tree to tree or even a Wizard who considers the forests surrounding his tower as being under his arcane protection. In short, any Class can fit any concept and it's the inter-relationship between the class and concept which creates the interesting characters. Don't limit yourself to the obvious!

Here's a handful of initial concepts just to get the brain juices flowing. • Spy • Exiled noble • Victim of identity theft • Wrongly convicted criminal • Rightly convicted criminal • Church-sponsored assassin • Wizard's ex-apprentice • Amnesiac • Heir to a fallen empire • Last of their kind • First of their kind • Farmer, now adventurer • State-employed treasure hunter • Archaeologist • Compulsive gambler • On the run • Haunted • Dragon stuck in humanoid form • Clone/identical twin • Cursed
http://tvtropes.org is a terrific source for concepts, but be warned that the hours will disappear when you hit that site!

Character concepts work best when you combine them. Playing a Spy is good, but playing an Amnesiac Spy is better (just ask Jason Bourne). Likewise, an Archaeologist On the Run is likely to have quite a story to tell, and an Exiled Noble Compulsive Gambler is going to be a very different character to an Exiled Noble who is Haunted. The key thing to remember is to be flexible with your initial Concept. It's likely to evolve and refine as you walk through the generation process, but should provide a great starting point on which to base your character. Be prepared for that Exiled Noble Compulsive Gambler to end up as a Paladin whose heritage was lost in a game of cards to the Dark Cardinal and he is now indentured to Asmodeus for the rest of his natural life. Hey, it could happen.

Generation
Time to bring out the pencil and paper! As per the Player's Handbook (p14) there are nine steps to generating a character in Fourth Edition D&D: 1. Choose Race 2. Choose Class 3. Determine Ability Scores 4. Choose Skills 5. Select Feats 6. Choose Powers 7. Choose Equipment 8. Fill in the Numbers 9. Roleplaying character details The PHB makes it clear (just above this list) that these can be tackled in any order, but that's something easily missed by most players. It doesn't matter whether you generate your ability scores first, leave your Race selection to the end or write down that one Feat you really want before you do anything else. While nine steps sounds like a lot, this list could really be shortened down to:

1. Determine Ability Scores
2. Select Race & Class
3. Choose Skills
4. Choose Feat(s)
5. Choose Powers
6. Choose Equipment
7. Check your math!

That's more like it.

While the options can be tackled in any order, I tend to generate the ability scores first because the initial concept generally suggests what kind of attributes the character should possess. At this stage, the attributes describe the character's physical build, intelligence and force of personality before the Race and Class are considered. This is him (or her), “in the raw”. [...]

Going back to our Wilderness Protector as an example and using the Standard Array (10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 16) I envisage him like this: He's healthy, well-built, reasonably self-assured but more likely to fade into a crowd than be the centre of attention – all a sign of good living in the Wilderness. By creating stats based upon your Concept (rather than the needs of the Class), your character is going to be much more interesting though less optimal than your typical Character Builder created build. That's not necessarily a Bad Thing as playing a less-than optimal charater is much more fun!

So saying, it's worth considering the kind of Class that a person with those attributes is most likely to take. Let's face it himself at the door of the Wizard's Academy, and a high-Wisdom gal will be shown the directions to the nearest Temple. Consider the best Class for the stats, which in turn you've generated based upon your initial Concept. Or ignore all that and pick the Class which would be the most fun. It's up to you. Looking at our Wilderness Protector's stats, the obvious choice would be to make him a Fighter. With his healthy living and well-built form he could be a Greatclub wielding outlaw who stands vigilant against the encroachment of civilization. He could also make a passable Cleric or Paladin, though his skills as a Rogue or Bard would be marginal at best! It's worth considering Race & Class together as a whole as a Race could well open up Classes otherwise limited by your starting stats.

Make our Wilderness Protector an Eladrin and he could make a pretty good quarterstaff-wielding Wizard! Let's let him play to his strengths (so to speak), and be a Human Fighter and use that +2 to boost his STR. I'm already picture him as a giant of a man hefting a Greatclub with a broad smile on his unwashed face. While we're at it, let's give him a name too. Jot down the Racial bonuses and abilities, then head into the Class write-up and do the same. Calculate your Hit Points and Defences but bear in mind these might change due to your Feat selection. Write them faint and keep the eraser handy. By now, your character should be taking shape nicely.


------------[end of blog post]---
There is more, but this rests my case. A starter box for an RPG without character generation cuts out the above, and thus cuts out what is not simply a ‘bump in the road’ towards FUN! 4DVENTURE! It kills what is undoubtedly one of the most enjoyable and most central element to being a character in a game. And that’s what the original argument was about. Q.E.D.

Shame on WotC for not including any of the above. Shame on them for not dedicating 4 pages on the joys and thrills of generating a character, and for showing you on another 4 on how to do it. Shame on them for promoting the idea that creating a character needs a $50 hardcover or a 48 (!) page PDF. And I wonder if that PDF expresses any of the above sentiments, or if Neeeext continues with 3e's and 4e's idea that character generation is all about generation and less about character. Because I can't honestly believe that 96 pages in a starter box is not enough to address, at a very basic level, this really important corrective to the modern culture of build that started Pundit's blog rants in the first case.

The fact that Pundit can't see it in those terms cements, if anything, his own blind spot - his failure to distinguish character generation from character generation. Which, ironically, is what he accused the 'OSR Taliban' opposition of. I guess it takes one to see one? ;-)

Quote from: Windjammer;752527I rest my case in Benoist's favour (who'd have thought I live to see that day) on the sheer basis of an awesome post (http://greywulf.net/files/Greywulfs_Guide_to_Chargen.pdf) written in 2010 for 4th edition D&D.

Your're right, that's a great post.
But what else do you expect from Robin "Microlite" Stacey?

QuoteBecause I can't honestly believe that 96 pages in a starter box is not enough to address, at a very basic level, this really important corrective to the modern culture of build that started Pundit's blog rants in the first case.

Yes, that's what this fuss is all about.

Brilliant blog post. Never saw it originally, so thanks for linking and posting it.

True.

But the thing in Next's starters case is. It is not a "basic" set. And in a way "starter" is a bit misleading. Not sure what youd call it.

But. While chargen isnt in the box, it is going to be online. And that is a key to Next's system. You dont need all the books to play. How far that works remains to be seen.

As for not needing chargen? If it is not following the Next Starter ideal of near instant pick up and play, and is instead a functional RPG in a box, however short that might be, then chargen is essential.

Otherwise as in this Next starter case. Its not. In part because the chargen has simply been shuffled elsewhere and the box is not meant to be a RPG core as it were.

It really depends on what is and is not in the starter.
Alot of the vexation has been in part due to the lack of hard data.

Or to put it differently.
The problem is that the Next starter looks like a B/X/etc Basic boxed set. But is not.

Since they took the maps and tokens out of the boxed set, you'd think they could have added another 16 pages or so and still kept it under $20. The bang for your buck is lacking.

Quote from: Endless Flight;752536Since they took the maps and tokens out of the boxed set, you'd think they could have added another 16 pages or so and still kept it under $20. The bang for your buck is lacking.

All the D&D boxed sets up to at Cyclopedia did not have a seperate map or counters I believe. Basic tended to not even have a worldmap at all. You tended to get the worldmap in the Expert box, and that was oft just a page in the book. I think BECMI had maps in one of the boxes?

So there being no maps or counters in the Next Starter is somewhat a non-issue at this point.

Im pretty sure the adventure will have maps though. But likely standard module style maps.

We will know soon enough.

Quote from: Omega;752538All the D&D boxed sets up to at Cyclopedia did not have a seperate map or counters I believe. Basic tended to not even have a worldmap at all. You tended to get the worldmap in the Expert box, and that was oft just a page in the book. I think BECMI had maps in one of the boxes?

So there being no maps or counters in the Next Starter is somewhat a non-issue at this point.

Im pretty sure the adventure will have maps though. But likely standard module style maps.

We will know soon enough.

I'm basing it off what Wizards has produced over the last 14 years. The 3e/4e boxes all had tokens/minis and maps/dungeon tiles.

Quote from: Endless Flight;752539I'm basing it off what Wizards has produced over the last 14 years. The 3e/4e boxes all had tokens/minis and maps/dungeon tiles.

Interesting. Never seen the boxed sets for 3 or 4. Hence why said "up-to Cyclopedia"

good OP windjammer, i agree completely. :)

Well, I had asked in the other thread what they were going to put in the box to offset the loss of the two maps and the tokens. The books are going to be the same page count. They are keeping the price the same though. Is that because of inflation? Do they want to make more profit? Why not add in another 16 pages or so for character creation (maybe four pages per four basic classes)?

I mean, I'll probably buy it, although I did feel somewhat disappointed with the poor (putting it nicely) 4e starter sets.

Quote from: Dirk Remmecke;752533Your're right, that's a great post.
But what else do you expect from Robin "Microlite" Stacey?

Indeed. Back then he also had a series of blogposts about 4e called 'Play like it's 1983', where they roll up 4th edition characters by going 3d6 in order. I kid you not - these guys are playing warlocks etc with a -4 to their "primary attack stat", and they're none the poorer for it.

Only yesterday I played Swords of Rome where a puny Gaul general had to roll a 1 on a 1d6 so his sorry band of barbarians would run in time from an overwhelming Roman army (represented by a 1 inch pile of combat unit chits on the board). When the Gaul player rolled that 1 the whole board cheered.

That's what playing a severely under-optimized 4e warlock is like. Your pact rays rarely hit - well, they do, but they hit everyting else - but when they do hit home, it's a triumph. :D

Anyhow, end of tangent, just another reason to (re)read Greywulf's blog.

Tell me this given Tyranny of Dragons is going up to 15th level and you can play it just with the starter box it follows at minimum you'll get basic character generation 1-20 for the 5 classes in the box. Right?

I find that they are giving out a pdf, might draw me back into play (haven't bothered with D&D in years), if I don't have to buy anything. It is actually a smart concept.

Quote from: Marleycat;752547Tell me this given Tyranny of Dragons is going up to 15th level and you can play it just with the starter box it follows at minimum you'll get basic character generation 1-20 for the 5 classes in the box. Right?

No, just 1-5 in the starter set.  Further levels will be in the free PDF.

How do we know it's a free PDF and not just pages on their website? With one, you hit their website once and you never have to return. With the other, you have to go back for repeat visits, driving traffic to their website, where they can bomb you with ads for other products.

Quote from: Endless Flight;752552How do we know it's a free PDF and not just pages on their website? With one, you hit their website once and you never have to return. With the other, you have to go back for repeat visits, driving traffic to their website, where they can bomb you with ads for other products.

Now that would annoy me.

Quote from: Endless Flight;752552How do we know it's a free PDF and not just pages on their website? With one, you hit their website once and you never have to return. With the other, you have to go back for repeat visits, driving traffic to their website, where they can bomb you with ads for other products.

Because they said it was a free PDF.

Quote from: Endless Flight;752552How do we know it's a free PDF and not just pages on their website?

Because they said so.

Quote from: Windjammer;752527Before then you may well have played using a pre-generated character

Right.  This is THAT game.  

This is not the Basic set.  This is a Starter set.  People have conflated the two.  And there is no longer a good excuse for conflating the two, but people keep doing it anyway.  

Which is a sign of bad faith to me - of an agenda that isn't about getting a good first game where, as you say, you play with a pre-generated character and then follow that with a different version of the game where you generate the character.  Instead, I think a huge amount of the over the top criticism is based on company-bashing or edition-bashing or just plain old Internet gadflyism and resistance to change.  It starts with the conclusion of "I will assume this new thing is bad until proven otherwise" and is followed by confirmation bias that supports your preconceived notion it is bad.

Quote from: Windjammer;752527Shame on them for promoting the idea that creating a character needs a $50 hardcover or a 48 (!) page PDF.

The document which will contain appropriately 15% of the PHB, which has never been described as 48 pages and also which has never been described as being JUST those pages from the PHB, is not dedicated to character creation.  It simply also contains those rules.

And shame on you for not knowing that, and declaring it as fact anyway.  It's one thing to simply not have the time to devote to gathering the information - it's another to just say fuck it and go ahead and make outright false declarations of fact because you're too lazy to actually click around a bit and get the information.

Excellent post.

But.

While I've been on that side of the line since damn near Day One, the unfortunate fact is that there remains two factions: those for whom chargen is essential, and those for whom it's an unwelcome chore and Not Really Part Of The Game.

Any game aimed at pulling in both sides has to address both sides.

Quote from: Endless Flight;752552How do we know it's a free PDF and not just pages on their website?

Kynewulf MacGowan ‏@Kynewulf74 1h
@mikemearls RE: The 15% PHB pdf. When will this go up? Is it freely available or require purchase of the starter kit or other products?

Mike Mearls ‏@mikemearls 34m
@Kynewulf74 freely available, launches with starter set

Quote from: Mistwell;752558This is not the Basic set.  This is a Starter set.  People have conflated the two.  And there is no longer a good excuse for conflating the two, but people keep doing it anyway.  

Which is a sign of bad faith to me - of an agenda

Stupid me! It's called a Starter Box - "Starter", not "Basic". And, retailing at $19.99, and coming from WotC (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/Product.aspx?x=dnd/products/dndacc/244660000) that designation means - just means - that we can't have some boiled down char-gen in the box. I'm really glad you educated us about that.

(http://media.wizards.com/images/dnd/theredbox/inside_0a.jpg)

Quote from: Ravenswing;752559Excellent post.

But.

While I've been on that side of the line since damn near Day One, the unfortunate fact is that there remains two factions: those for whom chargen is essential, and those for whom it's an unwelcome chore and Not Really Part Of The Game.

Any game aimed at pulling in both sides has to address both sides.

I guess 5e has to really work to pull all of the different factions back together again, even though the fracturing starts before even the first dice are rolled. I really want to laugh at the absurdity of it all.

In regards to the Starter Set, it's worth pointing out that old gamers like us don't need it to use the Tyranny of Dragons adventures.

Buy the module, use the free pdf. Done!

I literally cannot think of a single game in the history of this medium that failed to include character generation and did not subsequently fail itself.

Time Lord, Marvel Heroic, the Cliffhangers Indy game, a legion of other licensed games, almost every post-Wizards D&D boxed set ... all bombs. Many people didn't even know Time Lord existed, Marvel was on the market for all of a year before it disappeared, the Indy game is STILL a running gag decades later, and every single D&D box Wiz has ever put out has wound up in B&N bargain bins with a 50% off sticker.

This will bomb. But it doesn't matter, because it's not intended to sell anyway. Like often happens in business, a product exists because one voice in the top brass insists it must happen, while another insists it shouldn't, and so a half-assed compromise is assembled that is more or less politically destined to please absolutely no one and thus 'prove' the latter party's point while giving the former room to absolve themselves of responsibility for its demise.

D&D boxed sets are the Obamacare of gaming.

Quote from: Ravenswing;752559Excellent post.

But.

While I've been on that side of the line since damn near Day One, the unfortunate fact is that there remains two factions: those for whom chargen is essential, and those for whom it's an unwelcome chore and Not Really Part Of The Game.

Any game aimed at pulling in both sides has to address both sides.

It does.  The Basic rules, which include chargen, are free.

Somehow, this is not enough for people.

Quote from: Windjammer;752566Stupid me! It's called a Starter Box - "Starter", not "Basic". And, retailing at $19.99, and coming from WotC (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/Product.aspx?x=dnd/products/dndacc/244660000) that designation means - just means - that we can't have some boiled down char-gen in the box. I'm really glad you educated us about that.

(http://media.wizards.com/images/dnd/theredbox/inside_0a.jpg)

Apparently you are unaware that no starter box since 1983 has included chargen in it, OR if it did, it did it in a way that made the game not compatible with the full game.  You're claiming a common definition of a term, that hasn't existed for D&D in 31 years. So yeah, Starter Set should not be conflated with Basic, and it's time you became better educated on changing times...31 years is long enough for you to have figured this out.

Quote from: J Arcane;752572I literally cannot think of a single game in the history of this medium that failed to include character generation and did not subsequently fail itself.

3e D&D's boxed set.

Unless we've now redefined failure :)

Quote from: Mistwell;7525753e D&D's boxed set.

Unless we've now redefined failure :)

The boxed sets were failures. They were bargain binned almost from day one.

It just doesn't matter because the actual game they are for still sold fine. They're the $20 toaster at the endcap of the Wal-Mart aisle that you won't buy because the better toaster down the aisle inside has a bagel setting and is only $10 more.

The corebook sold better. Maybe even better for the useless box having been there.

Because it had character creation.  

It had the bagel setting.

Quote from: J Arcane;752572D&D boxed sets are the Obamacare of gaming.

(http://cdn0.dailydot.com/uploaded/images/original/2012/8/6/jump-the-shark_o_GIFSoup.com.gif)

Quote from: J Arcane;752572I literally cannot think of a single game in the history of this medium that failed to include character generation and did not subsequently fail itself.

FFG Star Wars is doing pretty well for itself, so I'm told.

Quote from: Ravenswing;752559While I've been on that side of the line since damn near Day One, the unfortunate fact is that there remains two factions: those for whom chargen is essential, and those for whom it's an unwelcome chore and Not Really Part Of The Game.

Including character generation does address both sides, though. Mike Mearls is not going to come to your house and force you to make D&D characters - and even if he does, call the cops on him! Make a citizens arrest! Home invasion isn't legal, whether you're a meth head or designer on the latest edition of a long-running fantasy roleplaying game.

If for some ideological reason you don't want people to be able to create their own characters, well, that's just being a jerk.

Quote from: Mistwell;752574Apparently you are unaware that no starter box since 1983 has included chargen in it, OR if it did, it did it in a way that made the game not compatible with the full game.

So what? That's irrelevant. This boxed set isn't competing against those. It's competing against the Pathfinder box, or AFF2e, or Skyrim, or anything else that is complete in one thing and lets players create their own characters.

And if they intend to print up copies of this character gen document to hand out at game stores as a marketing tool, it costs very little more to put it in the box. That way, everyone who buys that box has that document, in hardcopy (ie, without needing to go to a website). The store can't run out. The manager can't accidentally only order the starter box and not the character stuff.

Also, you're wrong (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1560768207/ref=nosim/waynesworldof-20).

Quote from: J Arcane;752579The boxed sets were failures. They were bargain binned almost from day one.

It just doesn't matter because the actual game they are for still sold fine. They're the $20 toaster at the endcap of the Wal-Mart aisle that you won't buy because the better toaster down the aisle inside has a bagel setting and is only $10 more.

The corebook sold better. Maybe even better for the useless box having been there.

Because it had character creation.  

It had the bagel setting.

Wait, "the boxed set sells well" is your standard for success?

OK, 4e boxed set. It sold great. It was not a good product, however, unless you liked the chits.

Quote from: Ravenswing;752559While I've been on that side of the line since damn near Day One, the unfortunate fact is that there remains two factions: those for whom chargen is essential, and those for whom it's an unwelcome chore and Not Really Part Of The Game.

I've come across some incredible straw-men in my time, but that might take the cake.

There are two factions:

1) Those who don't understand what a Starter Set is and who bleat relentlessly about anything at all different from the Moldvay Basic Set (which wasn't a starter set, but the first module in a standalone game).

2) Those who recognize that for total newbs (who are the target market of the Starter Set), character generation is not essential, and may in fact be an unwelcome complication or barrier to entry.

Quote from: Ladybird;752585So what? That's irrelevant. This boxed set isn't competing against those. It's competing against the Pathfinder box, or AFF2e, or Skyrim, or anything else that is complete in one thing and lets players create their own characters.

It's relevant to the post I was replying to, and the context I was replying to, which has fuckall to do with anything you just wrote.

He confused two D&D terms for starter (which is an intro game for totally new players) vs. basic boxed set (which is a subset of a larger game, either it's own game or a more advanced game).  I was explaining starter set, in the context of D&D products, hadn't meant what he thought it had meant, for over 30 years.  He even showed a picture to make it clear the context we were discussing.

You seem concerned with competition outside of the context of D&D - but that's not the topic I was replying to.  So yeah, imagine that, my post is irrelevant for shit I was not talking about.  It's also irrelevant for a variety of cheese and tea discussions.  Thanks for your input!

Quote from: Omega;752535True.

But the thing in Next's starters case is. It is not a "basic" set. And in a way "starter" is a bit misleading. Not sure what youd call it...
...The problem is that the Next starter looks like a B/X/etc Basic boxed set. But is not.

Yeah, I think that's the source of the complaints. :D

On current info it definitely sounds a lot like a preview, quickstart etc - indeed much like the free 4e pdf Quickstart, which went to level 3 and had several free adventures to use with it, including pdf Keep on the Shadowfell.
It sounds unlike the $20 4e Red Box in that it seems to have more levels, but less 'stuff'.

I'm having a hard time getting pissed off over the fact that Wizards is giving me the core of 5th edition for free.

I'm having even a harder time getting pissed off that they are giving everyone else the same thing.

Quote from: Mistwell;752574Apparently you are unaware that no starter box since 1983 has included chargen in it, OR if it did, it did it in a way that made the game not compatible with the full game.  

I thought the starter set(s) compatible with TSR's D&D Rules Cyclopedia still had chargen, didn't they? Or is this why nothing between 1983 Mentzer Basic and 2010 Pathfinder Beginner Box had much impact?

Quote from: Haffrung;752587I've come across some incredible straw-men in my time, but that might take the cake.

There are two factions:

1) Those who don't understand what a Starter Set is and who bleat relentlessly about anything at all different from the Moldvay Basic Set (which wasn't a starter set, but the first module in a standalone game).

2) Those who recognize that for total newbs (who are the target market of the Starter Set), character generation is not essential, and may in fact be an unwelcome complication or barrier to entry.

Sheesh.  About 25% of the time you say something sensible, and a full half the time you sound like someone who needs his dosage adjusted.  Among other things, coming up with crap like that is far more of a strawman than I ever contemplated.

There are, indeed, those who believe that chargen is important enough to playing the game that total newbs ought to be introduced to it, that failing to do so out of the gate will bite them in the butt down the road, and that it's no more a "barrier to entry" than having to learn how a knight moves in chess is only optional if you want to learn how to play chess.

Some might not agree with that, but that doesn't make them self-evident idiots.

Quote from: S'mon;752593I thought the starter set(s) compatible with TSR's D&D Rules Cyclopedia still had chargen, didn't they? Or is this why nothing between 1983 Mentzer Basic and 2010 Pathfinder Beginner Box had much impact?

The 1994 box did. I had it.

Quote from: Haffrung;7525872) Those who recognize that for total newbs (who are the target market of the Starter Set), character generation is not essential, and may in fact be an unwelcome complication or barrier to entry.

I still think that's quite an assumption... and doesn't match up with my own experiences at all. I think removing the bits needed to make and play your own character is removing a vital part of what makes RPGs unique.
The whole 'starter' vs. 'basic' vs. 'beginner' nomemclature pit fight is nonsense... because it means jack shit in the real world and those same imaginary 'newbs' are going to supply their own expectations.
Having the missing bits only available online, in whatever manner, is not better except for WOTC.
It's also aesthetically unpleasant to have a box with nice books and then have to go add a bunch of loose printer pages.

Quote from: Simlasa;752604The whole 'starter' vs. 'basic' vs. 'beginner' nomemclature pit fight is nonsense... because it means jack shit in the real world and those same imaginary 'newbs' are going to supply their own expectations.

Are you crazy? Everyone should have their expectations set by what Mike Mearls may or may not have said, all easily available a few dozen mouse clicks away. Shame on you for suggesting otherwise, and please try to stay "on topic".

Quote from: Windjammer;752527There is more, but this rests my case. A starter box for an RPG without character generation cuts out the above...

You are not killing the joy of playing a character. You are simply bypassing the long boring process of creating it. You still get to be a character in a game. Don't confuse making a character with playing a character.

Quote from: Windjammer;752527... Shame on them for promoting the idea that creating a character needs a $50 hardcover or a 48 (!) page PDF.

So you then stand up with your Braveheart speech based on the silly misconstrued argument from above? You don't need a $50 hardcover. Saying it over and over again doesn't change that. Trying to say it with $10 words instead of spitting on the screen (I tried both btw...) doesn't change it either. D&D is focused on playing. Play first. Then make characters. It's fucking brilliant and no shame is needed.

Quote from: Windjammer;752527The fact that Pundit can't see it in those terms cements, if anything, his own blind spot...

No. He is not mistaking anything. He clearly sees a good strategy to bring D&D into the main stream and successfully recruit GMs and Players.

I'm not interested in entering into a debate with you on the merits of character creation. I applaud your attempt at "but character creation is so vital and now it's missing so what about that?" You couldn't possibly argue the original point so you steer us on the finer points of character creation and how might the game suffer if it's not as "eloquent" as Benoist's post. Who gives two fucks? You can make characters by downloading a free PDF. That completely, totally and finally eliminates the wall of bullshit you just spit out. Is it going to be "GOOD" character creation? OH for fucks sake can we argue that later after you download the free PDF and parse it for your next academic post?

The starter set is not supposed to have character creation in it, because it's focused on playing. Simple. The argument is this; 1) is the Starter Box a complete game without character creation? Yes. You can pull stuff out and start playing. 2) is the Starter Box now crippleware because it's missing character creation. No. You can download that for free. A download that will EXACTLY MATCH THE HARDCOVER.

Either way you try to slice it, the Starter Set is a complete game designed to recruit new GMs to create new groups to play D&D. All this hand wringing about $150 in books, and missing character creation, etc. is simply whining because the box set doesn't conform with the dreams and hopes of the grogtard crowd. Also, see -> cheap ass.

TL: DR – including more words to repeat the lame mantra's of the grogtards makes you look lamer. The box set is a complete game, the strategy is sound, and you are a whiny bitch (a well spoken whiny bitch, but at last...).

What? You thought I was going to just let this whole new thread of nonsense slide?

Quote from: trechriron;752607You are not killing the joy of playing a character. You are simply bypassing the long boring process of creating it. You still get to be a character in a game.

Why should creating a character EVER be a 'long boring process'? That's the sort of shit that sent me back to playing lighter rules sets.

Quote from: trechriron;752607The starter set is not supposed to have character creation in it, because it’s focused on playing.

'Supposed' is only a viable word from WOTC's perspective... and besides, why shouldn't character creation be part of play rather than set off as some painful adjunct? I wasn't aware that roleplayers hated chargen this much... that it's considered such a burden on their fun. I've never been anything close to an optimizer but I've always found chargen (in the games I like at least) an exciting part of the game as a whole.

The problem with 'why not just include it' is that's a bad way to design a document for beginners. I know - I make a living writing technical and training documentation. A lot of the documents I write are for new users. In the industry, they're called "Quick Starts" or "Getting Started" docs. The cardinal rule of a quick start is to include only content that is absolutely essential. It's not the place for options, extras, or even standard workflows that are not absolutely essential to getting started using the product. For all other instruction and workflows, a Quick Start references the main user documentation. In the case of 5E, that's the online character generation PDF and the PHB.

Quote from: Haffrung;752614The problem with 'why not just include it' is that's a bad way to design a document for beginners. I know - I make a living writing technical and training documentation.

So what you're saying is that it's FUCKING AMAZING that RPGs ever became popular because those first books were nearly impossible for beginners to understand and your professional expectation is that readers would have just boggled up at the chargen and walked away, tossed the books in the trash. Yes?

Your 'Technical and training documentation' may be a different horse... I'm assuming your stuff is for a work environment, where people are already disinclined to learn, think the whole affair is dull and are just waiting for break/lunch. Work documentation is just about always written in a dry/sleep-inducing style.
A game is a different matter, it supposed to be fun and I assume anyone reading the booklet comes with some amount of interest and a real desire to learn to play it. If the chargen section is that big of a block of dull then it ought to be rewritten.

Quote from: Simlasa;752615So what you're saying is that it's FUCKING AMAZING that RPGs ever became popular because those first books were nearly impossible for beginners to understand and your professional expectation is that readers would have just boggled up at the chargen and walked away, tossed the books in the trash. Yes?

RPGs became popular in spite of the original rule books, not because of them. The Holmes boxed set blew my mind. It was like huffing pure imagination. But the rules themselves were utterly baffling. I had to find out how to play the game from my friend's older brother (even then, we used the pre-gens from the back of B1 for the first few months). Making the rules focused and comprehensible would in no way have detracted from the pleasure of reading the books. Clarity does not suppress inspiration.

Quote from: Haffrung;752618Making the rules focused and comprehensible would in no way have detracted from the pleasure of reading the books. Clarity does not suppress inspiration.

Who is arguing against clarity? Why should chargen be any more difficult to write in a way that a beginner will understand it vs. any other part of the rules?
None of this is advanced physics... or are my expectations different because I never moved on to 3.X version of the rules with all the feats/special abilities/skills blather that I still do not see the demarcations of. I prefer lighter rules than the recent forms of D&D... so maybe I'm assuming lighter chargen that shouldn't be confusing to anyone. Isn't 5e supposed to be lighter?

For the idiots claiming that 3E box sets didn't have chargen:

The first one, titled "Basic Game" and released in 2004 DID, in fact, have chargen.  This would be the "black dragon" box.  The "Advanced Rule Book" in this box set walks you through rolling up your abilities, choosing race, class, feats, skills, spells, armor, weapons, etc.

Now, come 2006, shortly before they decided to tank 3E/3.5, they revamped the "Basic Game" box set and turned it into two seperate boxes - the "blue dragon" box set, with chargen removed, and the "Player's Kit" box set, containing a softbound PHB.

If D&D 5e is so much simpler than 3e or 4e, why would character creation be boring or tedious?

Quote from: Endless Flight;752624If D&D 5e is so much simpler than 3e or 4e, why would character creation be boring or tedious?

Exactly! Why should any part of a game, meant to be fun and entertaining, EVER be boring or tedious?
If 3e/4e had boring/tedious chargen (it is for me) why was it allowed to ever get that way?

Quote from: Simlasa;752632Exactly! Why should any part of a game, meant to be fun and entertaining, EVER be boring or tedious?
If 3e/4e had boring/tedious chargen (it is for me) why was it allowed to ever get that way?

Because for a very vocal portion of the hardcore fanbase character generation and optimisation is a game unto itself.

Quote from: Bobloblah;752633Because for a very vocal portion of the hardcore fanbase character generation and optimisation is a game unto itself.

Yeah, I kinda figured that. Making up characters is fun for me, worrying over the numbers and numbers to come isn't.

Character generation being equated with optimisation is an issue with the rule system, and is not an innate character generation issue.

This 24 page quickstart for Dragon Warriors has character generation for a number of classes: http://www.mongoosepublishing.com/pdf/fcdwfreerpgday.pdf. I don't see how it encourages optimisation.

Character creation is IMO a central part of the roleplaying experience in that before you start playing you create the role that you go on to play. This is also representative of how a vast majority of how roleplaying games actually work.

Quote from: Skywalker;752642Character generation being equated with optimisation is an issue with the rule system, and is not an innate character generation issue.

Agreed. That's why I don't get all this talk about how difficult/opaque rules for chargen are... unless it's referring to those systems that cater to the optimization crowd. But 5e isn't one of those, is it?

Quote from: Haffrung;752614The problem with 'why not just include it' is that's a bad way to design a document for beginners. I know - I make a living writing technical and training documentation. A lot of the documents I write are for new users. In the industry, they're called "Quick Starts" or "Getting Started" docs. The cardinal rule of a quick start is to include only content that is absolutely essential. It's not the place for options, extras, or even standard workflows that are not absolutely essential to getting started using the product. For all other instruction and workflows, a Quick Start references the main user documentation. In the case of 5E, that's the online character generation PDF and the PHB.

Logic has no place on the internet!?!

Quote from: Simlasa;752643Agreed. That's why I don't get all this talk about how difficult/opaque rules for chargen are... unless it's referring to those systems that cater to the optimization crowd. But 5e isn't one of those, is it?

There is a character optimisation element in 5e in that there are mechanical options when creating your PC beyond simply selecting race and class, even at level 1. Its certainly less than in 3e on which 5e is based, but it hasn't removed that element entirely. For comparison, look at something like C&C which is a similar modern take on D&D. In C&C, there are limited mechanical options outside of race and class and so its quickstart (http://www.trolllord.com/downloads/pdfs/cnc_qs.pdf) with character generation in it adds no element of optimisation.

Quote from: Simlasa;752643Agreed. That's why I don't get all this talk about how difficult/opaque rules for chargen are... unless it's referring to those systems that cater to the optimization crowd. But 5e isn't one of those, is it?

No. And character generation is as simple as use this array 16, 15, 14, 14, 12, 10 or 4d6 drop 1 arrange to taste, or 3d6 fall where they may or whatever.

I will grant that the 3 LBB and Holmes Basic may not have been particularly good at teaching 'newbs' to play D&D. But if anyone that picked up either the Moldvay or Mentzer sets couldn't learn the game because of the mind-boggling character generation rules, then they were a fucking retard, like 65 IQ retard. I can't imagine that 5e character generation would be anymore difficult for today's newbs than BD&D was for us back in the day.

In my opinion, rolling dice and making choices gives players ownership over their character, and that connection should not be discounted.

Quote from: Skywalker;752645There is a character optimisation element in 5e in that there are mechanical options when creating your PC beyond simply selecting race and class, even at level 1. Its certainly less than in 3e on which 5e is based, but it hasn't removed that element entirely. For comparison, look at something like C&C which is a similar modern take on D&D. In C&C, there are limited mechanical options outside of race and class and so its quickstart with character generation in it adds no element of optimisation..

Not for BASIC characters. No backgrounds no feats.

After clarification that there will be a free .pdf, I am back at wait-and-see mode. It still makes Mearls a shit stirring fool for bungling all this by tweeting -- and he, and the rest of the dept., should have their twitter accounts frozen until the release mere months from now. Silence would have been far better.

I feel it is needless risk to rely on WotC web design presence to get this right and on time, especially in the face of 4e's release, as shit does happen. Steps separated from each other are more points for failure, either by manufacturer, seller, or user. There is a reason for the preference of "One and Done" products on the market.

Quote from: Marleycat;752648Not for BASIC characters. No backgrounds no feats.

Leaving aside the ability to distribute the standard array to attributes, a number of class abilities have mechanical options in them (Bardic Performance, Divine Domain, Fighting Style etc).

Quote from: Skywalker;752650Leaving aside the ability to distribute the standard array to attributes, a number of class abilities have mechanical options in them (Bardic Performance, Divine Domain, Fighting Style etc).

I give you that. Question is was that a fair array?

Quote from: Marleycat;752652I give you that. Question is was that a fair array?

FWIW I don't think the level of optimisation in 5e is enough to justify the exclusion of character generation in the Starter Set. But its there at some level.

It isn't for most children over 10.Again it's not the parents that have the Galaxy 3/4/5 it's the children and teenagers. Online components are expected not feared by them. And not needed by anybody that actually plays or runs any edition of Dnd.

All depends on what this boxed set is supposed to be.
If its a self contained starter set for people that want to take on the whole game or even if its a complete rpg that covers a lower number of levels with fewer options then it  should have chargen.

However, if its a beginners set that introduces new players to rpgs for the first time then chargen is not needed because the idea of a beginners box is you open it at xmas and within 15 minutes the whole family is playing.
Even the neigh sayers have to agree that you can roleplay with a  pre-generated character and that for a first time ever player with no one to guide them a pre-gen is fairly good idea.

So if you take the idea that this is not a traditional starter set but is something else and you combine it with the idea that the base rules for the system are going to be free to download, so in effect your starter set is a free download not this boxed beginners set, then there is less of an issue.

Quote from: jibbajibba;752658/snip

So if you take the idea that this is not a traditional starter set but is something else and you combine it with the idea that the base rules for the system are going to be free to download, so in effect your starter set is a free download not this boxed beginners set, then there is less of an issue.

That just makes the 'Starter Set' a pay-for-preview, and unless WOTC has some genius marketing plan, newbs may never get to their website to get the ACTUAL beginner set.

You know, these are role-playing games. If you cannot create a character for yourself to role-play, but must use someone else's pre-gen, that kinda defeats the purpose of playing the game.

Quote from: jeff37923;752664You know, these are role-playing games. If you cannot create a character for yourself to role-play, but must use someone else's pre-gen, that kinda defeats the purpose of playing the game.

Not entirely, but it cuts out a big chunk of the open-ended nature of TTRPGs that set them off from CRPGs and boardgames.

Quote from: jeff37923;752664You know, these are role-playing games. If you cannot create a character for yourself to role-play, but must use someone else's pre-gen, that kinda defeats the purpose of playing the game.

So all those convention games I played where I grabbed a pre-gen and we just started playing, I had simply skipped the entire purpose of the game?

Do you fuckers even listed to the bullshit you're spewing?

99% of games people play, they are not creating the character.  They're either using the same character they've used for a while. or using a pregen.  Character creation is usually one session a campaign, maybe a few if your character dies.  Why are you guys pretending that session is the "purpose" of the game?

Fucking onetrueway bastards.

Quote from: Haffrung;752614The problem with 'why not just include it' is that's a bad way to design a document for beginners. I know - I make a living writing technical and training documentation. A lot of the documents I write are for new users. In the industry, they're called "Quick Starts" or "Getting Started" docs. The cardinal rule of a quick start is to include only content that is absolutely essential. It's not the place for options, extras, or even standard workflows that are not absolutely essential to getting started using the product. For all other instruction and workflows, a Quick Start references the main user documentation. In the case of 5E, that's the online character generation PDF and the PHB.

Quote from: JasperAK;752660That just makes the 'Starter Set' a pay-for-preview, and unless WOTC has some genius marketing plan, newbs may never get to their website to get the ACTUAL beginner set.

At 12.99? Bullshit. Try again.

The purpose of a role-playing game is to take on the role of a character in a game world.  That's it.  Anyone else who tries to convince you otherwise doesn't have a clue as to what those words actually mean.  Sometimes that means creating your own character.  Sometimes it means not.

I mean, really now.  Am I to expect that if Johny comes late to a session and we say, "Here Johny, you don't need to spend time creating a PC, just choose between the cleric, fighter, or thief" then that means everyone else at the table is playing the game but Johny isn't?


Also, I think it's worth repeating that the STARTER set isn't geared towards anyone here.  It's geared towards people who are learning to play RPGs, and can jump right in and play with as minimal prep time as needed.  I think that's a pretty relevant thing.

Quote from: Simlasa;752669Not entirely, but it cuts out a big chunk of the open-ended nature of TTRPGs that set them off from CRPGs and boardgames.

Yes. Completely.

In the other thread I had started on about CRPGs like Pool of Radiance, Eye of the Beholder, Might & Magic, and The Bard's Tale. All had pre-gens. I would argue that everyone who has had experience with them just gave the pre-gens' items and gold to their own characters before deleting them to make more room for their own creations.

And as for boardgames, who's going to argue they could roleplay in Monopoly this time? You know, my old chums still talk about how one night playing HeroQuest the Elf did something cool, or something. /sarcasm

Now I am not against pre-gens. I understand that using them can get newbs right into the game. Fuck Mentzer started with a pre-gen. But new players aren't going to have as great a connection with them as they would characters they create themselves. So what I have a problem with is asking these potential new hobbyists to jump through hoops to get to the point where they can use their own imaginations. And tell stories about their own characters.

Quote from: Mistwell;752675So all those convention games I played where I grabbed a pre-gen and we just started playing, I had simply skipped the entire purpose of the game?

Do you fuckers even listed to the bullshit you're spewing?

99% of games people play, they are not creating the character.  They're either using the same character they've used for a while. or using a pregen.  Character creation is usually one session a campaign, maybe a few if your character dies.  Why are you guys pretending that session is the "purpose" of the game?

Fucking onetrueway bastards.

When the hell you get sane? I like it. Seriously I use pregens or mostly make my DM create my character since I hate character generation and roll for shit and JUST WANT TO PLAY between herding the cats (children).

Quote from: Mistwell;75267599% of games people play, they are not creating the character.

All the more reason, IMO, to stress that in TTRPGs they CAN create their own character... because otherwise why won't they just stick with that other 99%? Most of them have better graphics, are faster, take less time to play. Creating/customizing (NOT optimizing) your own character is one of the few things TTRPGs have going for them in the HUGE shitstorm of possible entertainments... and here WOTC is yanking it out of the introductory set.
Chargen is not the sole purpose of the game... but it's an important element that should not be downplayed, ignored, shuffled out of view from the folks you're trying to convince to play a game that may demand a few hours out of their busy lives.

Quote from: Simlasa;752681All the more reason, IMO, to stress that in TTRPGs they CAN create their own character... because otherwise why won't they just stick with that other 99%? Most of them have better graphics, are faster, take less time to play. Creating your own character is one of the few things TTRPGs have going for them in the HUGE shitstorm of possible entertainments... and here WOTC is yanking it out of the introductory set.
Chargen is not the sole purpose of the game... but it's an important element that should not be downplayed, ignored, shuffled out of view from the folks your trying to convince to play a game that may demand a few hours a week of their lives.

Because it's a SOCIAL event for many of us. Friends, food, drinks, kids underfoot or "helping" ie. learning. I let the kids roll my D20 and go for example. I have an oversized one that's perfect for children.

They love asking Johanna if they can roll her big maroon D20.

The more I think about this, the more it reminds me of a "quick-starter," which is generally used to get things up and going fast and to give players an overview of the feel of the game.

Except, it's a pretty elaborate quick starter, since it apparently contains more than one adventure and takes characters through more than a single session or two of play. And everything in the game is consistent with various add-ons down the road.

People who like the game can then get the character generation rules, and a bunch of other stuff for free - even if they didn't buy the game - even if they just had a friend DM it for them.

And what I'm hearing here is that "Yes, but dammit, they should still have included chargen rules, because that's a big fun part of the game, and people aren't going to be able to experience that without taking the additional step of visiting the website, and so they'll never know what they are missing.

But it seems to me that if the basic game experience sucks, the best chargen in the world isn't going to save it. On the other hand, if the quick start experience is fun, then its a pretty good bet that one or more people in a gaming group is going to take the next step, especially if the game directs them to it.

Quote from: Marleycat;752682Because it's a SOCIAL event for many of us. Friends, food, drinks, kids underfoot or "helping" ie. learning. I let the kids roll my D20 and go for example.

Boardgames provide all of that... often with lots of attractive components and play times that come in much under the usual duration of an RPG.

Quote from: Saplatt;752684But it seems to me that if the basic game experience sucks, the best chargen in the world isn't going to save it. On the other hand, if the quick start experience is fun, then its a pretty good bet that one or more people in a gaming group is going to take the next step, especially if the game directs them to it.

Possibly, but none of that is a decent excuse for not including a very basic component of the game.
Unless the WOTC's goal is actually to change the nature of the game, maybe? To eventually have it be more like a boardgame with lots of pre-gens and component and bottled gameplay? More stuff for them to sell and convince players that the 'DIY elements of play are 'too hard' or 'weird'. A much more standardized/controllable hobby with that official brand name on it.

Seems like a good way to freak out a new user, by ramming chargen down their throats.

http://www.catthulhu.com/rant-why-people-dont-play-rpgs/

Quote from: Mistwell;752675So all those convention games I played where I grabbed a pre-gen and we just started playing, I had simply skipped the entire purpose of the game?

OK dumbass, tell us all how convention gaming is exactly like the format of home or club games. Tell us how organized play events allow the same freedoms as home or club games.

Quote from: Mistwell;752675Do you fuckers even listed to the bullshit you're spewing?

For want of a nail, the White Knight has fallen off his horse.

Quote from: Mistwell;75267599% of games people play, they are not creating the character.  They're either using the same character they've used for a while. or using a pregen.  Character creation is usually one session a campaign, maybe a few if your character dies.  Why are you guys pretending that session is the "purpose" of the game?

Fucking onetrueway bastards.

Pssst, dumbass! I could either eat at McDonalds or grill up a cheeseburger myself. The cheeseburger I grill for myself tastes better.

Not to mention the fact that those games in a campaign you are talking about would not be possible without a character having been created to play in them.

Quote from: jeff37923;752689OK dumbass, tell us all how convention gaming is exactly like the format of home or club games. Tell us how organized play events allow the same freedoms as home or club games.




For want of a nail, the White Knight has fallen off his horse.



Pssst, dumbass! I could either eat at McDonalds or grill up a cheeseburger myself. The cheeseburger I grill for myself tastes better.

Not to mention the fact that those games in a campaign you are talking about would not be possible without a character having been created to play in them.

Ok, none of this really answers the question posed.  How does Johny, coming late to a game and using a pregen, defeat the purpose of the game.  That is what you said.  No one has said that you couldn't get more enjoyment making a PC yourself.  But you said anyone using a pregen defeats the purpose.  I'd appreciate it if you could answer that.

*Edit*  Because your post seems to strongly imply that the purpose of the game is to create your own characters.  You know do does think char gen is the purpose of the game?  Denners.  Is that the side you want to align with?

Quote from: Simlasa;752686Boardgames provide all of that... often with lots of attractive components and play times that come in much under the usual duration of an RPG.

Possibly, but none of that is a decent excuse for not including a very basic component of the game.
Unless the WOTC's goal is actually to change the nature of the game, maybe? To eventually have it be more like a boardgame with lots of pre-gens and component and bottled gameplay? More stuff for them to sell and convince players that the 'DIY elements of play are 'too hard' or 'weird'. A much more standardized/controllable hobby with that official brand name on it.

No, but we prefer RPGs and I among others in my circle run different games entirely. For example I GM Mage the Awakening. Again it's a social event for us like going to the bar or dancing.

Quote from: JasperAK;752660That just makes the 'Starter Set' a pay-for-preview, and unless WOTC has some genius marketing plan, newbs may never get to their website to get the ACTUAL beginner set.

no I disagree, it is something else an actual introduction to RPGs.

the set covers levels 1-5 we are assuming that it has a sample adventure and some DM guidelines. So you could play multiple games with this set. Could you use it as the only game you buy and play it for years, probably not, but it isn't that is it.

This is a game you can buy and play with your family or in a group of non-roleplayers for as long as you like but if you like the idea of RPGs and want to expand the game then there is free content.

Imagine Heroquest (the boardgame to clarify) had a whole load of free downloadable content. A charcter gen system, rules on creating new DM content, new monsters etc etc . That game would have brought a load of new folks to RPGs. It wouldn't mean that the base game was a pay to preview.

Quote from: dragoner;752687Seems like a good way to freak out a new user, by ramming chargen down their throats.

http://www.catthulhu.com/rant-why-people-dont-play-rpgs/

That link is a call for lighter gaming and fewer asshat roleplayers... not doing away with chargen. It also complains about how boring combat is, should the 'starter' leave out combat as well?
Chargen doesn't have to be, shouldn't be, as it is depicted in that tale. Unless that's how you like your games... but I'm not showing up for that.

Quote from: Simlasa;752696That link is a call for lighter gaming and fewer asshat roleplayers... not doing away with chargen.
Chargen doesn't have to be, shouldn't be, as it is depicted in that tale.

Who is talking about doing away with chargen? If keeping it out of the starter box, keeps the needle-dicks at bay, it's a good thing, imo. But there is an easily findable, pdf? That makes me happy, esp if I want to play.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;752691Ok, none of this really answers the question posed.  How does Johny, coming late to a game and using a pregen, defeat the purpose of the game.  That is what you said.  I'd appreciate it if you could answer that.

Sure.

I play role-playing games so that a character created by me, can adventure. If I wanted to play someone else's creation to adventure, then I might as well go play a computer game (and not bother the group because I couldn't be assed to make it on time).

A large part of the attraction of role-playing games is the ability to create and customize your interface with the game - the Player Character. There is no guarantee that the pre-gens don't all suck or fit the style of play that you want to use. Creating your own Player Character means that you have the oppurtunity to craft the best interface you possibly can.

Participating in a role-playing game by using a pre-gen to me is like having an artificial constraint placed on me. I understand the need in convention games because of the accepted time constraints, but it is usually not the preferred method of playing. You can choose the best shoe that fits, or you can try on random ones that in a pile and hope for a fit that is "good enough".

Quote from: Sacrosanct;752691*Edit*  Because your post seems to strongly imply that the purpose of the game is to create your own characters.  You know do does think char gen is the purpose of the game?  Denners.  Is that the side you want to align with?

Holy fuck is there an excluded middle to this arguement of yours.

Quote from: Simlasa;752696That link is a call for lighter gaming and fewer asshat roleplayers... not doing away with chargen. It also complains about how boring combat is, should the 'starter' leave out combat as well?
Chargen doesn't have to be, shouldn't be, as it is depicted in that tale. Unless that's how you like your games... but I'm not showing up for that.

How do you accomplish that?

1. Lighter rules
2. DM control
3. Less emphasis on white room balance
4. Less options in the baseline iteration of the game

The KISS principal (keep it simple stupid).

Quote from: jibbajibba;752695no I disagree, it is something else an actual introduction to RPGs.

A lot of videogames have free, playable demos that can be downloaded. Why not put the whole starter box online then?
Does charging money for the physical object set up expectations that might not meet with reality, regardless of what WOTC's marketing folks are telling it?

Quote from: jeff37923;752699Holy fuck is there an excluded middle to this arguement of yours.

I love it how now having two paragraphs explaining how to roll ability scores, choose a race and a class for yourself, along with a couple of lines explaining the basics for each now just means you are a filthy charop denner who can't live without options. So now, it's either (A) play with the pregens WotC gives you already, or (B) you must be a denner.

That is awesome. *golf clap*

Quote from: dragoner;752697Who is talking about doing away with chargen? If keeping it out of the starter box, keeps the needle-dicks at bay, it's a good thing, imo. But there is an easily findable, pdf? That makes me happy, esp if I want to play.

The needle-dicks will always find a way. Hide the chargen from them and they'll just obsess about some other facet.

Quote from: Saplatt;752684People who like the game can then get the character generation rules, and a bunch of other stuff for free - even if they didn't buy the game - even if they just had a friend DM it for them.

And what I'm hearing here is that "Yes, but dammit, they should still have included chargen rules, because that's a big fun part of the game, and people aren't going to be able to experience that without taking the additional step of visiting the website, and so they'll never know what they are missing.

I said it a couple of days ago and it bears repeating. I think it would be a good move for WOTC to take what they are giving away and print a book that could fit in the starter set. Sell it along side the starter set. I don't think too many would complain about paying $40 or so for a complete BASIC game.

QuoteBut it seems to me that if the basic game experience sucks, the best chargen in the world isn't going to save it. On the other hand, if the quick start experience is fun, then its a pretty good bet that one or more people in a gaming group is going to take the next step, especially if the game directs them to it.

I agree though I believe chargen is an important part of the learning process. How many might have a bad experience because they don't understand what is on their sheet. The act of creating a character may help some to understand how some of the rules work.

As for those that play it and love it. What the hell is going to happen when they go from the starter set where everything is done for you to the core rulebook and now have to learn how to do everything themselves with a lot more options to choose from. I am a firm believer in the previous Basic/Advanced design, and I don't see any Basic with the Starter set. I foresee a pay-for-preview and a steep learning curve to get into the game proper.

Granted, We don't know what is actually in the starter set. They may have character generation in all but name. I just know that for the few I introduced to our hobby, that first 1/2 session or so (one lunch period for some) of generating their characters and explaining what the numbers on the sheet meant taught them a lot about the game. Plus most were invested in those characters--the roleplaying seemed to come naturally for most.

Quote from: Benoist;752703I love it how now having two paragraphs explaining how to roll ability scores, choose a race and a class for yourself, along with a couple of lines explaining the basics for each now just means you are a filthy charop denner who can't live without options. So now, it's either (A) play with the pregens WotC gives you already, or (B) you must be a denner.

That is awesome. *golf clap*

Or it is a great example of binary thinking and its limitations.

Quote from: Benoist;752703I love it how now having two paragraphs explaining how to roll ability scores, choose a race and a class for yourself, along with a couple of lines explaining the basics for each now just means you are a filthy charop denner who can't live without options. So now, it's either (A) play with the pregens WotC gives you already, or (B) you must be a denner.

That is awesome. *golf clap*

Get the fuck off your high horse. You have a computer correct? I bet everybody you want to send the set has internet access right? Even I have that!

Quote from: Simlasa;752704The needle-dicks will always find a way. Hide the chargen from them and they'll just obsess about some other facet.

True, and that is a depressing thought.

The PDFs threaten our noble traditional way of of life!

(http://cdn2.americancivilwar.com/americancivilwar-cdn/south/davis.jpg)

Quote from: Marleycat;752707Get the fuck off your high horse. You have a computer correct? I bet everybody you want to send the set has internet access right? Even I have that!

But then is he a dirty charop denner or someone who completely lacks imagination or drive? According to Sacrosanct, it is one or the other.

Quote from: Marleycat;752701How do you accomplish that?

1. Lighter rules
2. DM control
3. Less emphasis on white room balance
4. Less options in the baseline iteration of the game

The KISS principal (keep it simple stupid).

Sure. I just don't think #4 requires you to completely remove chargen... just give basic core options (basic races, classes, short list of spells and equipment) and make it clear more (classes, races, lots more equipment and spells) will be available in the full game.

Quote from: Simlasa;752711Sure. I just don't #4 requires you to completely remove chargen... just give basic core options (basic races, classes, short list of spells and equipment) and make it clear more (classes, races, lots more equipment and spells) will be available in the full game.

No, this is for those who can't role play their way out of a paper bag, those newbs who don't have the brains to come up with char gen themselves when they don't even yet know what that is, or for us charop denners who can't live without optimizing characters! This is madness, we must have just pregens, otherwise the kids' brains will explode in utter confusion!

Quote from: JasperAK;752705As for those that play it and love it. What the hell is going to happen when they go from the starter set where everything is done for you to the core rulebook and now have to learn how to do everything themselves with a lot more options to choose from.

See, that's what I was getting at earlier... that the DIY aspects of the game not being made apparent from the get go sets up a mindset that will not want chargen at all, it will want more pre-gens... OFFICIAL pregens tailored for OFFICIAL adventures. So yeah, "You can download those chargen rules if you want them and feel up to that level of advanced work... OR just buy this adventure over here that has a whole new set of cool new pre-gens for you, no need put in all that work making your own characters and adventures when we've made them for you!"

Quote from: Benoist;752712No, this is for those who can't role play their way out of a paper bag, those newbs who don't have the brains to come up with char gen themselves when they don't even yet know what that is, or for us charop denners who can't live without optimizing characters! This is madness, we must have just pregens, otherwise the kids' brains will explode in utter confusion!

Can you imagine the rejection that would happen if kids had to create their own characters? Nobody would ever play RPGs at all! They would be considered too hard and then the kids would all go back to their smartphones and their Flappy Birds and Minecraft! It would be the end!

I just asked my 11 year old daughter, the age that is right in the supposed wheelhouse of this boxed set, if she knew what a PDF was. She got a funny look on her face and said "no". She's got a iPod Touch, uses a Kindle Fire regularly, and also knows how to use a laptop. I think the next time I pick her up from her school I'll conduct an unscientific poll and see how many of her 10-12 year old schoolmates know as well. I have a feeling I know what the majority will say.

Quote from: jeff37923;752710But then is he a dirty charop denner or someone who completely lacks imagination or drive? According to Sacrosanct, it is one or the other.

Well Sacrosanct overstated it at worst and Benoist overreacted as usual.

Quote from: jeff37923;752715Can you imagine the rejection that would happen if kids had to create their own characters? Nobody would ever play RPGs at all! They would be considered too hard and then the kids would all go back to their smartphones and their Flappy Birds and Minecraft! It would be the end!

I don't know how we could even start playing with these confusing boxed sets ourselves. It was some kind of miracle despite the brokenness that was the basic D&D set I suppose. All praise WotC, for they fixed the entry to the game at last! No more confusion, no more of that silly "choice" people keep babbling about in role playing games. This is for charop'ers. To the bat mobile, on to the tracks of Tyranny of the Dragons. I can't wait to find out how it ends. The finale must be awesome, with the opportunity to kill Tiamat herself, and see the movie based on that storyline in the theater right after! I hope my dwarf fighter pregen makes it into the video game too.

The old red boxes can do no wrong. If character generation was in those, dammit, it should be in this one. :D

Quote from: Endless Flight;752716I just asked my 11 year old daughter, the age that is right in the supposed wheelhouse of this boxed set, if she knew what a PDF was. She got a funny look on her face and said "no". She's got a iPod Touch, uses a Kindle Fire regularly, and also knows how to use a laptop. I think the next time I pick her up from her school I'll conduct an unscientific poll and see how many of her 10-12 year old schoolmates know as well. I have a feeling I know what the majority will say.

Not if you explain "see that big red button?" Not saying anything about your child but I question the methodology full stop, no pass go sir.

Basically give her a URL and then tell me about your survey.

Quote from: JasperAK;752705I said it a couple of days ago and it bears repeating. I think it would be a good move for WOTC to take what they are giving away and print a book that could fit in the starter set. Sell it along side the starter set. I don't think too many would complain about paying $40 or so for a complete BASIC game.

That probably wouldn't be a bad idea, and I wouldn't be surprised to see it at some point, but it may not be a priority at launch.

Quote from: JasperAK;752705I agree though I believe chargen is an important part of the learning process. How many might have a bad experience because they don't understand what is on their sheet. The act of creating a character may help some to understand how some of the rules work.

You might be right, but my limited experience is the opposite. Especially at the outset, people get too tied up in trying to generate a character without yet knowing the rules or the feel of the game, and too worried about whether option A is a "better" choice than option "B" and so forth. I almost always have to walk them through it. Some people have ideas about who wizards or thieves are and what should be able to do that doesn't remotely resemble 1st level D&D characters.

I give the same kids a boardgame like Talisman and Bam!  They are up and running Eight O'clock, Monday Morning, Day One.      

Quote from: JasperAK;752705As for those that play it and love it. What the hell is going to happen when they go from the starter set where everything is done for you to the core rulebook and now have to learn how to do everything themselves with a lot more options to choose from.

I assume that having played the game and seeing how things work, the chargen rules and the various other options will make a lot more sense to them than if they just picked it up cold. Why would it be otherwise?

Quote from: JasperAK;752705...I just know that for the few I introduced to our hobby, that first 1/2 session or so (one lunch period for some) of generating their characters and explaining what the numbers on the sheet meant taught them a lot about the game. Plus most were invested in those characters--the roleplaying seemed to come naturally for most.

And, like I said, for me it's been the other way around. There's already a huge amount to digest when picking up even the simplest RPG, and the less they have to learn before they start playing, the better. If it's too intimidating at the start, they'll just set the books aside and go back to the video games.

Quote from: Benoist;752719...to the tracks of Tyranny of the Dragons. I can't wait to find out how it ends. The finale must be awesome, with the opportunity to kill Tiamat herself, and see the movie based on that storyline in the theater right after! I hope my dwarf fighter pregen makes it into the video game too.

I think you're pretty close to the truth of the plan.

Quote from: jeff37923;752699Holy fuck is there an excluded middle to this arguement of yours.

Holy fuck the irony of your post makes my head explode.  You said anyone playing a pregen is missing the whole point of the game, and you have the balls to say I'm excluding the middle?

:jaw-dropping:

Quote from: Benoist;752703I love it how now having two paragraphs explaining how to roll ability scores, choose a race and a class for yourself, along with a couple of lines explaining the basics for each now just means you are a filthy charop denner who can't live without options. So now, it's either (A) play with the pregens WotC gives you already, or (B) you must be a denner.

That is awesome. *golf clap*

Who made that argument?  No one I can see.  What I can see is someone saying that anyone who doesn't make their own character is missing the point of the whole game.  And that reeks of the Denners, since it implies that the whole point of the game is char gen, which is the primary thing they focus on, and not on actual play.

Quote from: Simlasa;752723I don't think you're pretty close to the truth of the plan.

+1000
Try and read a review now and again Ben. Jeez!

Quote from: Sacrosanct;752725Who made that argument?  No one I can see.  What I can see is someone saying that anyone who doesn't make their own character is missing the point of the whole game.  And that reeks of the Denners, since it implies that the whole point of the game is char gen, which is the primary thing they focus on, and not on actual play.

So no, you didn't make that argument at all, but now you're actually totally repeating it intimating that somehow if you think that the ability to play your own invented characters in your own worlds of your imagination, i.e. the point of the game for some people, that it actually might be a "thing" that kinda should make it in the basic introduction of the game for some people, equals being a denner?

*golf clap*

Keep it going. You impress me.

Oh, and Benoist?  When you say something like this:

Quote from: Benoist;752668From where I'm standing right now you guys are the ones who are pissing your pants because someone dared to criticize the starter set. Are you guys alright? Will you be okay? This isn't the end of the world, you know? It isn't for me, and neither does it have to be for anyone else, yourselves included.

It makes no sense whatsoever when it's people like Jeff who are saying that if you don't roll your own PC, you're missing the entire point of the game, or when people are saying that without chargen, you might as well just be playing a boardgame like Wrath of Ashardalon.

Either you have some big ass blinders on, or you're being deliberately obtuse.

Quote from: Simlasa;752711Sure. I just don't think #4 requires you to completely remove chargen... just give basic core options (basic races, classes, short list of spells and equipment) and make it clear more (classes, races, lots more equipment and spells) will be available in the full game.

They already have. Remember the target audience has internet access.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;752725... And that reeks of the Denners, since it implies that the whole point of the game is char gen, which is the primary thing they focus on, and not on actual play.

I had no idea who the "denners" were ... until you mentioned that.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;752728Either you have some big ass blinders on, or you're being deliberately obtuse.

YOU are calling me obtuse?

I am LITERALLY LAUGHING OUT LOUD behind my screen right now. The irony, it is KILLING me! :D

(http://www.sundriesshack.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/Irony-Meter-Explode.jpg)

Quote from: Saplatt;752722You might be right, but my limited experience is the opposite. Especially at the outset, people get too tied up in trying to generate a character without yet knowing the rules or the feel of the game, and too worried about whether option A is a "better" choice than option "B" and so forth.

That's why it should be presented as an open-ended 'what sort of character would you like to play'... with NO stress on how that character will manage in the game, how optimal its stats are.
Most fantasy archetypes I'd expect people to come up with can be filtered down into the basic classes. You'll have to talk down the kid with dreams of the robot ninja who can turn into a dragon... but stuff like 'magical princess' and 'armored guy with a huge axe' are simple.

QuoteI give the same kids a boardgame like Talisman and Bam!  They are up and running Eight O'clock, Monday Morning, Day One.

So you're saying that RPGs need to be more like boardgames? A more limited, controllable, marketable experience? I'm thinking WOTC agrees with you.        

QuoteI assume that having played the game and seeing how things work, the chargen rules and the various other options will make a lot more sense to them than if they just picked it up cold. Why would it be otherwise?

Because after the first few games D&D might be rooted in their minds as a game you play with pre-generated characters.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;752728Oh, and Benoist?  When you say something like this:



It makes no sense whatsoever when it's people like Jeff who are saying that if you don't roll your own PC, you're missing the entire point of the game, or when people are saying that without chargen, you might as well just be playing a boardgame like Wrath of Ashardalon.

Either you have some big ass blinders on, or you're being deliberately obtuse.

I pick door #3 Monty....trolling.

Quote from: Benoist;752727So no, you didn't make that argument at all, but now you're actually totally repeating it intimating that somehow if you think that the ability to play your own invented characters in your own worlds of your imagination, i.e. the point of the game for some people, that it actually might be a "thing" that kinda should make it in the basic introduction of the game for some people, equals being a denner?

*golf clap*

Keep it going. You impress me.

I'm going to repeat it yet again, because you seem to be missing the point

And that reeks of the Denners, since it implies that the whole point of the game is char gen, which is the primary thing they focus on, and not on actual play.

When someone says that unless you create your own PCs, you are missing the entire point of the game, that means that that person thinks the entire point of the game is making your own PCs.  That's how the English language works.  And the only people I have ever heard that views the entire point of the game is char gen are the Denners, that's why I brought up the analogy.  So unless you can show me other groups of people who are known for viewing the entire point of the game as chargen, the analogy is apt.

Personally, I don't think Jeff does think the entire point of the game is chargen, but he's too freaking stubborn to admit he said something really dumb.  And here you are, doubling down on the stubbornness.

Quote from: Marleycat;752726+1000
Try and read a review now and again Ben. Jeez!

Nope, that was my fault for bad editing. I've fixed it now.

Quote from: Marleycat;752729They already have. Remember the target audience has internet access.

Maybe. I think you presume too much. The two groups of kids I play with have SOME internet access... one group has to ask for permission. Neither have a decent printer to print stuff out on and neither have a portable device to tote the PDF to games with. None of them have their own phones yet.  
Sure, they can get their parents to do it... but that's one more step added to the mix.
I'm at the public library every Saturday. There are always loads of people, all ages, waiting to use a computer... get on the internet. I'm thinking that WOTC's miracle PDF might be less of a miracle for them too.

Meanwhile I remain entirely UNCONVINCED about any supposed benefits to leaving basic chargen out of the box (except for the benefit to WOTC).

Quote from: Saplatt;752730I had no idea who the "denners" were ... until you mentioned that.

Sorry for that given it's better you live in ignorance about that particular term.

Quote from: Benoist;752731YOU are calling me obtuse?

I am LITERALLY LAUGHING OUT LOUD behind my screen right now. The irony, it is KILLING me! :D

Yeah, I am.  Or do you in fact believe that without chargen, the game is not any different than a boardgame like Wrath of Ashardalon?  Do you also believe that unless you make your own PCs, you're missing the entire point of the game?

Because these are statements you're defending, or saying don't exist in your quote I posted from the other thread.

So could you please answer that question for me?  Do you agree with those two statements?

Quote from: Simlasa;752732That's why it should be presented as an open-ended 'what sort of character would you like to play'... with NO stress on how that character will manage in the game, how optimal its stats are.
Most fantasy archetypes I'd expect people to come up with can be filtered down into the basic classes. You'll have to talk down the kid with dreams of the robot ninja who can turn into a dragon... but stuff like 'magical princess' and 'armored guy with a huge axe' are simple.

Excellent points. But what you are suggesting requires us to be there to lead them through it and there just aren't enough of us, even if we had the time.  

Quote from: Simlasa;752732So you're saying that RPGs need to be more like boardgames?

They shouldn't be categorically harder to learn.  But my experience says they are.

Quote from: Simlasa;752732A more limited, controllable, marketable experience?

That has nothing to do with it.

Quote from: Simlasa;752732I'm thinking WOTC agrees with you.

God, let's hope so.
       

Quote from: Simlasa;752732Because after the first few games D&D might be rooted in their minds as a game you play with pre-generated characters.

Nonsense.

Quote from: Simlasa;752735Nope, that was my fault for bad editing. I've fixed it now.

Guess you should read the review also. Hint for you... you meet Tiamat? You failed and died. Damned harsh for a 12-15th level character right...:)

Quote from: Marleycat;752737Sorry for that given it's better you live in ignorance about that particular term.

I already got voted off that particular island.

Quote from: Simlasa;752735Meanwhile I remain entirely UNCONVINCED about any supposed benefits to leaving basic chargen out of the box (except for the benefit to WOTC).

The only thing I can think of is that they can see how many people are downloading the rules. But that doesn't necessarily mean how many people are using them.

I am one of those people who believe that one of the chief aspects that differentiate tabletop role playing games from any other type of game, role playing or not, is the ability to explore the worlds of YOUR OWN imagination, and that includes the ability for the starting player to create his or her OWN alter-ego in the game-world from scratch. It is not rocket science, and if 5e does indeed live up to its promises, it shouldn't take more than a page spread to explain how to do it in the starter set.

Skipping on this is kinda like not including color on a flat-screen TV because you can always download that option from the internet later on. It doesn't make any sense to me. It is missing one of the chief defining attributes of tabletop role playing games, and what makes them distinctively attractive in addition to all the other sources of entertainment that already exist out there.

It's dumb. Flat out stupid, to me.

And requiring even just one more step, to have to go to a website and download more out of it to finally get to the actual thing that differentiates these games from everything else, is one step too much that already loses X number of newbies who could have been hooked with it if it had been in the starter set to begin with. If you do any kind of website design or anything having to do with ergonomics, you'll know that that one single additional step represents an obstacle for some people who'll just not consider it, move on to something else before they get around to do it, and so on, so forth.  

Is it the end of the world? Nope. Does that mean that 5e itself will suck? I don't know. Will I check it out? I will, I have to. Do I have a grudge against WotC, do I want it to fail? Nope, quite the contrary, actually. Is it still super-dumb to not have character generation in the starter set? It is!

That's my actual position on the subject.

Quote from: Saplatt;752722That probably wouldn't be a bad idea, and I wouldn't be surprised to see it at some point, but it may not be a priority at launch.

You might be right, but my limited experience is the opposite. Especially at the outset, people get too tied up in trying to generate a character without yet knowing the rules or the feel of the game, and too worried about whether option A is a "better" choice than option "B" and so forth. I almost always have to walk them through it. Some people have ideas about who wizards or thieves are and what should be able to do that doesn't remotely resemble 1st level D&D characters.

I give the same kids a boardgame like Talisman and Bam!  They are up and running Eight O'clock, Monday Morning, Day One.      

I assume that having played the game and seeing how things work, the chargen rules and the various other options will make a lot more sense to them than if they just picked it up cold. Why would it be otherwise?

And, like I said, for me it's been the other way around. There's already a huge amount to digest when picking up even the simplest RPG, and the less they have to learn before they start playing, the better. If it's too intimidating at the start, they'll just set the books aside and go back to the video games.

I have no idea how to quote within a quote so hopefully my responses make sense.

I've had the pleasure of introducing people in middle-school to BD&D, AD&D1e, and AD&D2e. In the Army I introduced people to AD&D2e. In my civilian social circles I introduced people with that had experience with AD&D1e to D&D3e and those without experience to BD&D.

BD&D, AD&D1e, AD&D2e were so easy to explain that the only people that didn't get it (the rules) were functionally retarded. Those that I introduced 3e to hated it because of the fiddly bits. We quickly threw out most of the combat rules and were left with what...wait for it...a more modern AD&D.

Of all of those I had introduced, some just didn't get the roleplaying aspect and no amount of character generation could have helped it, and I am quite sure that had I done everything for them (created pre-gens), the outcome would have been the same.

Since many believe that 5e is more like the TSR D&D, I think it will be much easier to understand for new players.

Concerning boardgames, I can't remember if I addressed them in this thread or the other, I wonder how many people got interested in 4e because of Wrath, Legend, Castle Ravenloft, or Gamma World. I doubt many moved on, and I see a Starter set that doesn't showcase the strengths of TTRPGs as useless to the long-term growth of our hobby.

I guess our experiences show how differently people get into the hobby. And it leads me to wonder what WOTC learned about how people started playing D&D: did they learn from others or did they just get the game and learn themselves. In my immediate circle in middle-school, one person introduced me to the game and we then introduced more than a dozen others. When we played we had the benefit of using a system that was much more free form than more modern systems produced by WOTC.

Quote from: Saplatt;752741I already got voted off that particular island.

Well if you were a former Denner you'll live longer and happier for being such formerly.

Quote from: Benoist;752743I am one of those people who believe that one of the chief aspects that differentiate tabletop role playing games from any other type of game, role playing or not, is the ability to explore the worlds of YOUR OWN imagination, and that includes the ability for the starting player to create his or her OWN alter ego in the game-world from scratch. It is not rocket science, and if 5e does indeed live up to its promises, it shouldn't take more than a page spread to explain how to do it in the starter set.

I think if millions can figure out how to make a character in WOW, then 5e should be fine. Maybe those people should be invited into our little corner.

'Hey, instead of playing in the programmers world, how about you play in your own. The only limitations are your own.'

Not having chargen does not bode well under any circumstances. There is no way in hell you can persuade anyone that this is a selling point.

I fear that it very possibly means that whoever put this together decided that chargen is "too complicated" for the new guy. Which either (a) underestimates new players or (b) means they have actually made chargen at least as complicated as 4e's.

Whether it "cripples" the starter set, we'll see. But it's not a good sign in any case.

Quote from: Saplatt;752739Excellent points. But what you are suggesting requires us to be there to lead them through it and there just aren't enough of us, even if we had the time.

Well, it could be presented that way in the book, to some degree... but it sounds like you're expecting that a bunch of kids, with no supervision, will be able to pick this up and run it... that they're smart and willing to read the whole thing, that one of them is going to get how to run the game for the others... but somehow they'd all choke at chargen? I think you're selling them short.

QuoteThey shouldn't be categorically harder to learn.  But my experience says they are.

It's not that RPGs are harder to learn... it's that RPGs (up till now) ask for a certain level of creativity and involvement that boardgames do not... and not everyone is willing/able to buy into that.
To me RPGs are a hobby. Hobbies require more time, more creative input, a higher level of interest vs. some folks sitting down to Monopoly.
If you want to D&D to be more like a boardgame I'd bet you would attract more casual players, but in getting there I'd expect you'd have to jettison most all the stuff that makes RPGs distinct. You'd end up with something closer to Descent or Talisman.
 

QuoteThat has nothing to do with it.

It does if WOTC's interests are what's plotting the course.
       

QuoteNonsense.

You don't think people take their first experience of a thing and hold onto it as the pristine example? Isn't that what the 'grognards' are always accused of?

Quote from: Saplatt;752741I already got voted off that particular island.

:idunno: I thought it was a cub scout term myself.

Quote from: Simlasa;752681All the more reason, IMO, to stress that in TTRPGs they CAN create their own character... because otherwise why won't they just stick with that other 99%?

LOL wow way to not comprehend.  I was not referring to "all games in the universe of games".  I was referring to TTRPGs, specifically D&D.

99% of Tabletop Role Playing game sessions of Dungeons and Dragons, of any edition, do not involve creating a character.

You only create a character once, or if there is a lot of death a few times, during an entire campaign.  Most of the time, you're sitting down and just playing.

So if the process of character creation is THE POINT of the game, then why is it almost zero sessions actually experience that thing?

It's a facile, vacuous point.  Grab a character and play.  You want to dicker around with character creation, go online and get the PDF.  But the point of the game is not that process, it's playing the fucking game.

QuoteChargen is not the sole purpose of the game... but it's an important element

No, it's not.  I don't even remember most chargens.  It's usually more individual and less social in nature, it usually involves intricate choices being made mostly in a vacuum which turn out to be not so important later, and it's often a lot of math and checking things to make sure things were done right.  It's prep for the game, not the game itself.  It's not an important aspect of the game.  It's not role playing, it's not social, it's not solving riddles or getting through a social situation or being clever or any of the important aspects of this game.  When I think role playing game, I do not think calculating my fucking armor class up or character height and weight while everyone else around me is (fairly quietly usually) doing the same.  That's not a strength of RPGs, it's not what makes RPGs important, it's none of the important elements of the game.

Quote from: JasperAK;752750I think if millions can figure out how to make a character in WOW, then 5e should be fine. Maybe those people should be invited into our little corner.

'Hey, instead of playing in the programmers world, how about you play in your own. The only limitations are your own.'

Again, logic has NO place on the internet heathen!!!

Quote from: Mistwell;75275599% of Tabletop Role Playing game sessions of Dungeons and Dragons, of any edition, do not involve creating a character.

You only create a character once, or if there is a lot of death a few times, during an entire campaign.  Most of the time, you're sitting down and just playing.

???

Not sure what you are referring to, certainly not D&D. Have chargen for every game, if not the players, then it's me doing up new NPCs'. Players die frequently in my games.

Plus with all the drop-ins and drop-outs There's usually someone tumbling some dice for a new character right when we begin a session, and many sessions have an out-of-action player rolling up a new character, or character(s) as well.

Quote from: Mistwell;752755LOL wow way to not comprehend.  I was not referring to "all games in the universe of games".  I was referring to TTRPGs, specifically D&D.

99% of Tabletop Role Playing game sessions of Dungeons and Dragons, of any edition, do not involve creating a character.

You only create a character once, or if there is a lot of death a few times, during an entire campaign.  Most of the time, you're sitting down and just playing.

So if the process of character creation is THE POINT of the game, then why is it almost zero sessions actually experience that thing?

It's a facile, vacuous point.  Grab a character and play.  You want to dicker around with character creation, go online and get the PDF.  But the point of the game is not that process, it's playing the fucking game.



No, it's not.  I don't even remember most chargens.  It's usually more individual and less social in nature, it usually involves intricate choices being made mostly in a vacuum which turn out to be not so important later, and it's often a lot of math and checking things to make sure things were done right.  It's prep for the game, not the game itself.  It's not an important aspect of the game.  It's not role playing, it's not social, it's not solving riddles or getting through a social situation or being clever or any of the important aspects of this game.  When I think role playing game, I do not think calculating my fucking armor class up or character height and weight while everyone else around me is (fairly quietly usually) doing the same.  That's not a strength of RPGs, it's not what makes RPGs important, it's none of the important elements of the game.

Playing your alter-ego is the point of the game.

Otherwise your better off with a board game where your piece is already made for you. Let me play Elf in HeroQuest and we'll have fun for a night. Let me play Quinton Quickblade my Elven Fighter/Thief that is strong and quick on his feet but gullible and a loner and we'll have fun for years.

This thread keeps on giving.

There are five pre-gens in the box? What if you have six players? Do you tell them to draw straws?

Quote from: Endless Flight;752764There are five pre-gens in the box? What if you have six players?

When JRR Tolkien ran the Starter Set for the Hobbit for 14 players, it had only 4 pregens - Gandalf, Bilbo, Thorin and Dwaliloifur. He made do.

Quote from: Benoist;752763This thread keeps on giving.

Yep you're still here. How about you go on another senseless rant? It's always good for a laugh in my opinion. And given the topic it's pretty appropriate so hit me.

Quote from: dragoner;752754:idunno: I thought it was a cub scout term myself.

Nah, it's a forum by and for autists and damaged people that play games...best avoided nowadays except for the guilty pleasure of amusement, although in times past (before the meds stop working, is the best theory), there were some constructive things said there.

Anyway, I totally concede Chargen should be in the starter, but I'm quite OK with it not being there.

I ran a "hobby shop" PF campaign. Nothing serious, just whoever showed up, we played. Every time I showed up, there was 1 to 6 players wanting to learn how to play, so I had to blow 10 minutes to an hour creating a character...and then 3+ hours of having fun playing the game.

I got real good at rolling up characters fast, but everyone else standing around didn't exactly have fun. And that's the thing about a starter, it should be really easy to start. In a hobby shop setting, not having to deal with Chargen will *really* help, assuming I try DnDNext.

I sure hope they have a dozen or so pregens in the box, because if I have two characters at the table that are *exactly* the same, then I'll wander on over to the "no chargen sucks" side of the field.

Quote from: Mistwell;752755You only create a character once, or if there is a lot of death a few times, during an entire campaign.  Most of the time, you're sitting down and just playing.

Though you don't create a PC every session, you do play a character of your own creation for nearly 100% of the time. By removing the ability to create a PC, you remove this almost ever present (and arguably distinctive) aspect of the game.

Quote from: GameDaddy;752761???

Not sure what you are referring to, certainly not D&D. Have chargen for every game, if not the players, then it's me doing up new NPCs'. Players die frequently in my games.

I am obviously not talking about NPCs, because those are not PCs, by definition, and we're taking about PCs.  Now if you count NPCs, then guess what - the Starter set DOES have rules to make those I believe.

Do all your players die every session? No? Then I guess any session there isn't a TPK, your players are missing the entire point of the game according to Jeff.

QuotePlus with all the drop-ins and drop-outs There's usually someone tumbling some dice for a new character right when we begin a session, and many sessions have an out-of-action player rolling up a new character, or character(s) as well.

I often come to a session and say "Who is out, I will play that character".  Am I missing the entire point of the game because I didn't chargen that character?

I thought the entire point of the game was to role play, not to make a special snowflake all my own.

Quote from: Endless Flight;752764There are five pre-gens in the box? What if you have six players? Do you tell them to draw straws?

Banish him fool! Or just MAYBE go online like any normal human to get more information? Whacky right? Or call that weird uncle or parent that gave you the game if you didn't buy it yourself after reading the back of the box?

Or horror of horrors, write down simple character generation on a note included in said present?

Quote from: Doom;752769I sure hope they have a dozen or so pregens in the box, because if I have two characters at the table that are *exactly* the same, then I'll wander on over to the "no chargen sucks" side of the field.

There's only five in the box.  I hope your players have good imaginations.

Quote from: Skywalker;752770Though you don't create a PC every session, you do play a character of your own creation for nearly 100% of the time. By removing the ability to create a PC, you remove this almost ever present (and arguably distinctive) aspect of the game.

Yeah, bullshit.  The distinctive aspect of the game IS ROLE PLAYING.  It's right there in the fucking name of the activity.  

Just because I didn't role those stats and choose which race to go with which class, but instead grabbed a pregen, I am no longer experiencing the distinctive ever present portion of the game? Even though I am the one naming them, I am the one playing them and choosing the personality for the character, even though I am the one levelling them and adventuring with them, all of that is not distinctive of RPGS but it was instead choosing which ability score to put the 15 in that's distinctive?

So much bullshit.

Quote from: Marleycat;752773Banish him fool! Or just MAYBE go online like any normal human to get more information? Whacky right?

So the DM will have to spend about 15 minutes creating a character for the sixth player while the others twiddle their thumbs? Why not just put the rules in the box and they could all make their own at the same time? :D

Quote from: Endless Flight;752764There are five pre-gens in the box? What if you have six players? Do you tell them to draw straws?

Photocopier?

Download the pre-gens from WOTC and print to your heart's-content?

Tell the other advanced kid in the group to d/l the pdf and make a character while the rest sit with their thumbs up their asses wondering why Johnny Smartly gets to make a character instead of having it made for him?

txt wiz spprt n ? wat do now

Quote from: Mistwell;752772I often come to a session and say "Who is out, I will play that character".  Am I missing the entire point of the game because I didn't chargen that character?

No. You would have to admit that that approach in RPGs (using pregens) is not representative of how the vast majority of RPGs are run.

And really? Creating a PC is creating a special snowflake now? :rolleyes:

Quote from: Mistwell;752775Yeah, bullshit.  The distinctive aspect of the game IS ROLE PLAYING.  It's right there in the fucking name of the activity.

With the "role" in almost 99%+ of RPGs being created by the player, right? Creating PCs and playing a role aren't mutually exclusive, with only one able to be the distinctive feature. Both are distinctive aspects of RPGs and their combination is a powerful part of their appeal.

Quote from: Endless Flight;752774There's only five in the box.  I hope your players have good imaginations.

Duly conceded then...no chargen sucks, what were they thinking? "Our game is so feeble it's inconceivable 7 people will sit at the same table..."

Quote from: Mistwell;752772I am obviously not talking about NPCs, because those are not PCs, by definition, and we're taking about PCs.  Now if you count NPCs, then guess what - the Starter set DOES have rules to make those I believe.

Do all your players die every session? No? Then I guess any session there isn't a TPK, your players are missing the entire point of the game according to Jeff.



I often come to a session and say "Who is out, I will play that character".  Am I missing the entire point of the game because I didn't chargen that character?

I thought the entire point of the game was to role play, not to make a special snowflake all my own.

You are by the Church of Benoist. He's almost as big of an asshole as GOD himself it seems.

Quote from: Doom;752780Duly conceded then...no chargen sucks, what were they thinking? "Our game is so feeble it's inconceivable 7 people will sit at the same table..."

Hey, if you have internet access at the store and want to download that PDF, all the players can then create their own "special snowflake", as Mistwell likes to call them. :D

Quote from: Mistwell;752755LOL wow way to not comprehend.

If I misread you, I apologize. No need to be insulting
And my point still stands, just not in reply to yours.

QuoteSo if the process of character creation is THE POINT of the game, then why is it almost zero sessions actually experience that thing?

I never said that it's the point of the game. But I also wasn't referring solely to 'the process of character creation'... I was including the entire experience that follows from it, having a character of your own design to play as.

QuoteNo, it's not.  I don't even remember most chargens.

Again, that's not the point. Do you remember any CHARACTERS? Were they pre-gens or ones you designed yourself? Are you suggesting you have no preference?  

QuoteIt's usually more individual and less social in nature, it usually involves intricate choices being made mostly in a vacuum which turn out to be not so important later, and it's often a lot of math and checking things to make sure things were done right.

You're describing some boring chargen. The fault of your DM or some overly complex game system. There's no reason it has to be that way.  The groups I've played in have just about always done it together... bouncing our character concepts around... kind of building the group as a whole (unless we're going to do the 'you meet a stranger in a bar' setup). Even if it's just me rolling up a replacement PC I've never felt I was like you describe... I don't worry the numbers that way.

QuoteIt's not an important aspect of the game.

So you don't really care what sort of character you play. Any old pre-gen will always suit you just fine?  

QuoteWhen I think role playing game, I do not think calculating my fucking armor class up or character height and weight while everyone else around me is (fairly quietly usually) doing the same.

Neither do I... and none of that is what I think is fun about chargen. Jeez, what sort of fucked up games have you been playing?  

QuoteThat's not a strength of RPGs, it's not what makes RPGs important, it's none of the important elements of the game.

Which? The charop nonsense you're describing OR designing a character of your own that you'll enjoy playing? To me those are two different things. The second one is very much a 'strength of RPGs' and, to me at least, a very important element of the game.

When you have to actually argue with people that the ability to create your own characters however you imagine them in your head is a primary feature of tabletop role playing games, and not an obstacle to their appreciation out of the box, is when you know something is rotten in the state of Denmark.

Quote from: Endless Flight;752776So the DM will have to spend about 15 minutes creating a character for the sixth player while the others twiddle their thumbs? Why not just put the rules in the box and they could all make their own at the same time? :D

Somehow I like you sir. But yes if I'm playing it's just easier and quicker given my horrible rolling during that phase.:)

Quote from: Marleycat;752785Somehow I like you sir. But yes if I'm playing it's just easier and quicker given my horrible rolling during that phase.:)

Maybe they have point buy for you. :)

It's usually better for me if that's an option honestly. 16/15/14/14/12/10 would rock my world.:)

Quote from: Benoist;752743I am one of those people who believe that one of the chief aspects that differentiate tabletop role playing games from any other type of game, role playing or not, is the ability to explore the worlds of YOUR OWN imagination, and that includes the ability for the starting player to create his or her OWN alter ego in the game-world from scratch. It is not rocket science, and if 5e does indeed live up to its promises, it shouldn't take more than a page spread to explain how to do it in the starter set.

This is an entirely reasonable statement that no one disagrees with.  But it's not an argument against WotC's plan.  Not a good one, at any rate.  IF WotC's plan was to give you a Dragonlance-like railroad adventure path and IF the pre-gens that came with the Starter Set were Dragonlance-like pre-gens or 3e Iconics with set personalities and histories, it would make some sense.  And if that's what the 5e Starter Set ends up having, I will be right there with you saying, "That's fucked up."

However, as far as we can tell, that's not what WotC is doing.  I've spent time on EN World arguing that a pre-gen is distinct from, say, B/X chargen, but that difference is nothing compared to the player creating his or her OWN alter ego in the game world through actual play.  I mean, Jesus, that's what the whole "Special Snowflake" thread was about.  Remember the "Black Box" thread, where everybody was nodding sagely and saying, "Yeah, this is what it's all about."?  Whether you have a pre-gen or a notepad on which you've written 7 random numbers and selected some equipment, what makes that character a character at all is what you do in the game.  Before that point it's just numbers on a sheet of paper.  And all WotC has done is put the mechanical processes for generating those numbers on the internet.  For free.

I mean, for fuck's sake, you guys have read the OD&D rulebooks, haven't you?  That has no player-oriented character generation.  The rulebooks are meant for the referee only.  By the book, players don't even generate characters; the referee rolls ability scores and gives them to the player, who then rolls GP and picks a class and equipment.  But no one talks (except asshole new school-types) about Gygax and Arneson "not getting it" or being "dumb" and "flat out stupid".  Because, up until this little kerfluffle, everyone understood that a character was generated by what you did, not by what you rolled.

WotC understands that chargen is a necessary (though not sufficient) condition for a role-playing game.  That's why they're providing 15% of the PHB, including chargen, for free.  To anyone.  But the argument against their plan has basically boiled down to "I think the mechanical processes should be in the box."  It's not a question of provision.  Chargen and more is being provided.  Shit, some kid interested in role-playing doesn't even need to buy a damn thing.  He'll be able to get chargen and campaign rules for freakin' free.  It's a question of "Should it be in the box of this particular product?"  And hey, that's a question on which reasonable people can reasonably disagree.  But if people say, "If the freely provided rules are not printed out and included in this particular box-set product, then WotC is stupid and is not providing the essence of role-playing to new players," then other people are going to say, "Wow.  That's some crazy bullshit."  And frankly, "You just don't like 5e being criticized!" is not a compelling response.

QuoteIs it still super-dumb to not have character generation in the starter set? It is!

It's super-dumb not to have any character generation in the starter set unless you buy the PHB (cf. 4e).  Whether or not the freely available chargen rules are printed out and put in the box by WotC themselves is so much pointless frippery.

Quote from: Endless Flight;752782Hey, if you have internet access at the store and want to download that PDF, all the players can then create their own "special snowflake", as Mistwell likes to call them. :D

No, just plain, no. Having dealt with so much misery with 4e's character generator, I'm not about to try to send half a dozen people, assuming they have cell phones or laptops, to a website to figure it all out...assuming the store has internet access, assuming the access is working smoothly.

Guess I'll just print out the PDF on my own time, and make some pregens...but seriously, if chargen is not in the box, why not have enough pregens for more than 1 game?

If a character dies, and it's replaced by an identical clone of the same character, that's a little disimmersive in my book.

Quote from: Mistwell;752775Yeah, bullshit.  The distinctive aspect of the game IS ROLE PLAYING.  It's right there in the fucking name of the activity.  

Just because I didn't role those stats and choose which race to go with which class, but instead grabbed a pregen, I am no longer experiencing the distinctive ever present portion of the game? Even though I am the one naming them, I am the one playing them and choosing the personality for the character, even though I am the one levelling them and adventuring with them, all of that is not distinctive of RPGS but it was instead choosing which ability score to put the 15 in that's distinctive?

So much bullshit.

You know what, you roleplay different than I.

When I sit down to create a character, every ability score works with the others to create this new persona. How do I reconcile a STR 15 with a CON 6? What do these scores tell me about the choices this character made in life?

And as I go through the process I have a well-formed character in my head, such that I could write a short story about him and have an idea about how he will act and react to events. It is the process that works for me. The visceral process. That's what I have taught to others. The joy of creating an alter-ego from six ability scores and a handful of choices. And then we play the game, and I learn more and more about the character as he acts and develops his personality. That's how I roleplay.

I have played pre-gens before. I didn't start off as connected to them until their personality manifested itself through play. In time I connected as if I had made the character myself. But for that interim time, nada, couldn't care less. Same with HeroQuest.

Quote from: Benoist;752743I am one of those people who believe that one of the chief aspects that differentiate tabletop role playing games from any other type of game, role playing or not, is the ability to explore the worlds of YOUR OWN imagination, and that includes the ability for the starting player to create his or her OWN alter ego in the game-world from scratch. It is not rocket science, and if 5e does indeed live up to its promises, it shouldn't take more than a page spread to explain how to do it in the starter set.

Unfortunately others absolutely disagree with that idea.

But.

Keep in mind that the starter is likely going to be like the first playtest. A pregen character that you put your name on and gender on.

As opposed to "Here. you are playing Raistlin, you are playing Strum..."

The player is still playing a personal character rather than a total pregen complete with its own name. And that is the important factor. The player is still playing their own character. The starter just eliminates the front end mechanics and gets you going ASAP. Like a board game or quickstart booklet.

And the chargen part is just moved off to a PDF. It is still there if needed. And WOTCs marketing seems to be revolving around some aspect of that PDF. The starter just happens to follow that ideal oddly.

As for the various arguments that chargen was "too complex"...

For fucks sake! What the hell happened when they got to the actual rules of the game if they couldnt even grasp roll 3d6? What happened when they got to Class explanations? Spells? COMBAT! Each spell is its own little set of rules! What were there? Mass seizures from brain overload? Because chargen is about the simplest step of the game there is.

gah...

In any case its still too soon to be freaking out over the (quick)starter box.

More info please.

Then we can properly freak out. :eek:

Quote from: omega;752794unfortunately others absolutely disagree with that idea.

But.

Keep in mind that the starter is likely going to be like the first playtest. A pregen character that you put your name on and gender on.

As opposed to "here. You are playing raistlin, you are playing strum..."

the player is still playing a personal character rather than a total pregen complete with its own name. And that is the important factor. The player is still playing their own character. The starter just eliminates the front end mechanics and gets you going asap. Like a board game or quickstart booklet.

And the chargen part is just moved off to a pdf. It is still there if needed. And wotcs marketing seems to be revolving around some aspect of that pdf. The starter just happens to follow that ideal oddly.

As for the various arguments that chargen was "too complex"...

For fucks sake! What the hell happened when they got to the actual rules of the game if they couldnt even grasp roll 3d6? What happened when they got to class explanations? Spells? Combat! Each spell is its own little set of rules! What were there? Mass seizures from brain overload? Because chargen is about the simplest step of the game there is.

Gah...

In any case its still too soon to be freaking out over the (quick)starter box.

More info please.

Then we can properly freak out. :eek:

Again logic does not belong on the internet fool.;)

This is Benoist's Church and you better learn that quick now, QUICK!

Quote from: Omega;752794Unfortunately others absolutely disagree with that idea.

Well, two of them in this thread seem to pretty openly dislike creating characters of their own.

QuoteKeep in mind that the starter is likely going to be like the first playtest. A pregen character that you put your name on and gender on.

As opposed to "Here. you are playing Raistlin, you are playing Strum..."

The player is still playing a personal character rather than a total pregen complete with its own name. And that is the important factor. The player is still playing their own character.

If that's the case they'll bother me a lot less... if it's just the Numberwang bits that are pre-figured but none of the personality/looks/motivations bits... even though those numbers do tell a backstory of their own.
Most pre-gens I've played as came with past history, personality, ambitions, bad habits... a bit of artwork. I'd prefer to come up with all of that myself.

QuoteAnd the chargen part is just moved off to a PDF. It is still there if needed. And WOTCs marketing seems to be revolving around some aspect of that PDF. The starter just happens to follow that ideal oddly.

That's the bit that puts me off... on guard against their corporate schemes.
It seems so easy to put the chargen in the box that the only reasons (that I can believe) not to are all skeezy marketing wank to push some sort of guided experience.

Quote from: JasperAK;752745.... I guess our experiences show how differently people get into the hobby. And it leads me to wonder what WOTC learned about how people started playing D&D: did they learn from others or did they just get the game and learn themselves. In my immediate circle in middle-school, one person introduced me to the game and we then introduced more than a dozen others. When we played we had the benefit of using a system that was much more free form than more modern systems produced by WOTC.

I think you're probably right about how our own experiences reflect the way we entered the game.

I started with what I think was probably the 4th printing of the Holmes set back in 1979. None of us had ever played anything like this before. If I remember correctly, the box included a module: In Search of the Unknown. But before we played the module, there was some sort of introductory section which had a fighter dude entering some twisty tunnels where he'd encounter skeletons, rats and, I think, a ghoul.

None of us had ever played a D&D game before. We had only a vague idea of what it was supposed to do. I honestly can't remember if the fighter was a pregen or rolled up, but I know we didn't spend much time on it. I was the DM and ran my brother through it - total theatre of the mind - and at the end of it he said, "Jeez, that was intense, you are on the other side of this and you have no idea what that was like."

That's when we got hooked and stayed hooked for about 35 years now. And we've hooked more than a few people since then. It initially had virtually nothing to do with character generation, backstory, customization or any of that. That all came much later on.

Fact is that I can't recall much of any back story for any character that I've played or played with in the many years since then. The whole idea of roleplaying a preconceived character is really kind of secondary. For me, it's never been about how someone started (especially since so damned many of them died in the first session); it's how they grew and what they actually did when I played them.

As far as emotional investment goes, I'll admit that I was definitely more detached for 1st level characters than 7th or 8th level characters that I'd been playing for months. But I think that's normal.

When we taught people later on, we rarely spent much time on character creation. The whole idea was to get them into the action ASAP and get them comfortable with the rules.

When we did have someone join the group who came in with the whole elaborate background of being the third son of a minor noble from a southern peninsula with a penchant for bow-legged women and red silk scarves, looking for his long-lost cousin who disappeared in the wilderness a year earlier - we just knew that fucker was going to die in the first room we hit.

Nowadays, we just call characters like that "Oberyns."

Quote from: Saplatt;752798/snip

When we did have someone join the group who came in with the whole elaborate background of being the third son of a minor noble from a southern peninsula with a penchant for bow-legged women and red silk scarves, looking for his long-lost cousin who disappeared in the wilderness a year earlier - we just knew that fucker was going to die in the first room we hit.

Going that deep into background stuff, for me it was only a phase. And a quick one at that (2e kits). Kinda like that one time in college... :)

And your thoughts on what did it for you, this new thing called D&D. Yep. I just might be more of a method actor. When I make a new character, a lot of it comes down to, 'who do I want to be now'? Sometimes I surprise myself when a character takes off on his own--very much like in writing.

Quote from: Windjammer;752527Shame on WotC for not including any of the above. Shame on them for not dedicating 4 pages on the joys and thrills of generating a character, and for showing you on another 4 on how to do it. Shame on them for promoting the idea that creating a character needs a $50 hardcover or a 48 (!) page PDF.

Yes you are right, but so what? Wizards hasn't DONE anything yet. Come July 20th we will know and have something real to judge. The only thing we have that is concrete is how well Wizards is marketing the introduction of 5e.

Quote from: Saplatt;752800Nowadays, we just call characters like that "Oberyns."

Ok, I'll bite. Explain please.:)

Quote from: Benoist;752784When you have to actually argue with people that the ability to create your own characters however you imagine them in your head is a primary feature of tabletop role playing games, and not an obstacle to their appreciation out of the box, is when you know something is rotten in the state of Denmark.

Then D&D has been a pretty shit RPG from the beginning, because I couldn't make half the fantasy characters I wanted to play in my head. I had to fit them into the archetypes the game would allow. Especially back in the TSR days when customization was pretty limited to what magic items you managed to find and the stats you rolled at level 1.

But you know what, as the mantra goes here, what is on your character sheet is not your character. I will take a bet that every person who picks up one of those pregens is going to play them differently. They are going to play a different character, because that character sheet is not their character.

I'll take a bet, that the pregens will be pretty archetypical characters. Fighter, Rogue, Wizard, Cleric, Ranger. Maybe the Ranger will be an Elf, the Cleric will be a Dwarf. I have no idea exactly. And it won't be much different than playing Basic. Pick from Magic User, Fighting Man, Elf, Dwarf, etc.

Apparently rolling stats is what makes chargen chargen to some people?

EDIT: I would like to point out, that personally, I think the starter set would be better served to have character generation in it. I just think if there is a readily available free resource that can be accessed for chargen... then its not the end of the world if the Starter set doesn't include it.

Quote from: Emperor Norton;752810Apparently rolling stats is what makes chargen chargen to some people?

Nope... part of it though. Sometimes, depending on the system, I come with a picture in my head and hope to make the rules work for me to get that idea onto the character sheet (not that the character sheet is the character either).
Other times I take the random roll and look for an image... a story in the numbers. That's fun too.
A pre-gen, even one that is just the stats/race/class, is just that little bit further from being my own. I can make it work, have fun with it, but it remains a compromise... a lesser thing.

Quote from: Saplatt;752798When we did have someone join the group who came in with the whole elaborate background of being the third son of a minor noble from a southern peninsula with a penchant for bow-legged women and red silk scarves, looking for his long-lost cousin who disappeared in the wilderness a year earlier - we just knew that fucker was going to die in the first room we hit.

It sounds like that player joined the wrong group.

D&D.

So Awesome.

U

Quote from: saplatt;752798i think you're probably right about how our own experiences reflect the way we entered the game.

I started with what i think was probably the 4th printing of the holmes set back in 1979. None of us had ever played anything like this before. If i remember correctly, the box included a module: in search of the unknown. But before we played the module, there was some sort of introductory section which had a fighter dude entering some twisty tunnels where he'd encounter skeletons, rats and, i think, a ghoul.

None of us had ever played a d&d game before. We had only a vague idea of what it was supposed to do. I honestly can't remember if the fighter was a pregen or rolled up, but i know we didn't spend much time on it. I was the dm and ran my brother through it - total theatre of the mind - and at the end of it he said, "jeez, that was intense, you are on the other side of this and you have no idea what that was like."

that's when we got hooked and stayed hooked for about 35 years now. And we've hooked more than a few people since then. It initially had virtually nothing to do with character generation, backstory, customization or any of that. That all came much later on.

Fact is that i can't recall much of any back story for any character that i've played or played with in the many years since then. The whole idea of roleplaying a preconceived character is really kind of secondary. For me, it's never been about how someone started (especially since so damned many of them died in the first session); it's how they grew and what they actually did when i played them.

As far as emotional investment goes, i'll admit that i was definitely more detached for 1st level characters than 7th or 8th level characters that i'd been playing for months. But i think that's normal.

When we taught people later on, we rarely spent much time on character creation. The whole idea was to get them into the action asap and get them comfortable with the rules.

When we did have someone join the group who came in with the whole elaborate background of being the third son of a minor noble from a southern peninsula with a penchant for bow-legged women and red silk scarves, looking for his long-lost cousin who disappeared in the wilderness a year earlier - we just knew that fucker was going to die in the first room we hit.

Exactly. I usually wanted to play a wizard. I died alot hence give me a pregen and shut up already and let me play!

Quote from: Sacrosanct;752728It makes no sense whatsoever when it's people like Jeff who are saying that if you don't roll your own PC, you're missing the entire point of the game.

Quote from: jeff37923;752664You know, these are role-playing games. If you cannot create a character for yourself to role-play, but must use someone else's pre-gen, that kinda defeats the purpose of playing the game.

For clarity, since you've gone off the deep end as usual.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;752734When someone says that unless you create your own PCs, you are missing the entire point of the game, that means that that person thinks the entire point of the game is making your own PCs.  That's how the English language works.  And the only people I have ever heard that views the entire point of the game is char gen are the Denners, that's why I brought up the analogy.  So unless you can show me other groups of people who are known for viewing the entire point of the game as chargen, the analogy is apt.

And like Wiley Coyote, Sac just now sees how high he is up in the air and how far away from the cliff he is.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;752734Personally, I don't think Jeff does think the entire point of the game is chargen, but he's too freaking stubborn to admit he said something really dumb.  And here you are, doubling down on the stubbornness.

This is what is called projection, in psychological circles.

However, I offer this challenge to Sacrosanct. The next game in which you are a Player, I will create your PC as a pre-gen for you to play since the Player Character does not matter to you. You can let me know how that turns out.

Quote from: Mistwell;752772Then I guess any session there isn't a TPK, your players are missing the entire point of the game according to Jeff.

Not surprisingly, you'd guess wrong.

Quote from: Benoist;752784When you have to actually argue with people that the ability to create your own characters however you imagine them in your head is a primary feature of tabletop role playing games, and not an obstacle to their appreciation out of the box, is when you know something is rotten in the state of Denmark.

Ain't that the fuckin' truth!


EDIT:

So if WotC didn't think that the Starter Set was crippleware without chargen, then why create the http://wizards.com/dnd/Article.aspx?x=dnd/4ll/20140527 (//%5Burl)]Basic Set?[/URL]

Except both of you are wrong...we all are on the internet? What? Shut the fuck up both of you. And anytime you want to build me a fair character Jeff you're on.

Though if it's a dwarven fighter it could get bloody.:)

Quote from: Simlasa;752796Well, two of them in this thread seem to pretty openly dislike creating characters of their own.

If that's the case they'll bother me a lot less... if it's just the Numberwang bits that are pre-figured but none of the personality/looks/motivations bits... even though those numbers do tell a backstory of their own.
Most pre-gens I've played as came with past history, personality, ambitions, bad habits... a bit of artwork. I'd prefer to come up with all of that myself.

That's the bit that puts me off... on guard against their corporate schemes.
It seems so easy to put the chargen in the box that the only reasons (that I can believe) not to are all skeezy marketing wank to push some sort of guided experience.

1: That is an understatement.

2: I really hope I am right. It is the best way to go about it without totally removing any sort of player embellishment. The ones in the playtest were two clerics one human one dwarven, a dwarven fighter, halfling thief, and elven wizard. Statted, equipped, etc with the character sheet explaining the class and race right there. even what to do when you leveled to 2 and 3. I am hoping they keep this format as it works.

3: I think Next is being used as an experimental platform. Someone thought this would be a good idea. It may be. I can certainly see what they are aiming at. But 19 years of WOTC wacky has taught me that no matter how good the odds. WOTC can still botch it. The fact that there has apparently been no mainstream or even magazine advertising for Next is an indicator.

If the starter is supposed to bring in these new players unused to the mystery of RPGs. Then wouldnt it be a good idea to... oh... you know... Let them know it exists? Still a minor irk point.

Quote from: Benoist;752784When you have to actually argue with people that the ability to create your own characters however you imagine them in your head is a primary feature of tabletop role playing games, and not an obstacle to their appreciation out of the box, is when you know something is rotten in the state of Denmark.

Quote from: jeff37923;752820Ain't that the fuckin' truth!

Yeah the bullshit is getting pretty thick.  You got Mistwell in white knight mode, you got Marley doing her passive-aggressive poke Ben thing, you got the usual anti-grog suspects representin' and you got the budding 5anatic 5acrosanct jumping in 'cause he gets to argue with Jeff over something again.

We know there's a whole lot of tangential dishonest bullshit behind people's arguing when Windjammer and Ben are in 100% agreement and in this case Skywalker and I are in 100% agreement.

Quote from: Skywalker;752770Though you don't create a PC every session, you do play a character of your own creation for nearly 100% of the time. By removing the ability to create a PC, you remove this almost ever present (and arguably distinctive) aspect of the game.

Anyone who disagrees with that statement has lost their reason due to personality bullshit and needs to step off the internet for a while because they're making themselves look like a raving lunatic.  That statement is an axiom.

Now if you want debate whether or not by having the chargen rules removed from the Starter Set box as an adjunct pdf, they are truly missing from the Starter experience, go ahead, but that's a matter of opinion anyway.

Now that other shoe has dropped, we finally know what Pundit was talking about.  We can move on from the Starter Set.

Basic D&D going from 1-20th and continually updated with new content from releases will be free on WotC site, and that the PHB, DMG, and MM will be optional to Basic D&D.

Quote from: CRKrueger;752832Now that other shoe has dropped, we finally know what Pundit was talking about.  We can move on from the Starter Set.

Yeah... the Basic version looks like the way to go. Screw the 'Starter Set', it can go die in a fire.

Quote from: jeff37923;752820So if WotC didn't think that the Starter Set was crippleware without chargen, then why create the http://wizards.com/dnd/Article.aspx?x=dnd/4ll/20140527 (//%5Burl)]Basic Set?[/URL]

That one's easy.  There's no way Hasbro is going to allow WotC to give away physical product and, as the people with the first SRD, WotC knows "living Documents" are better kept in updated online form anyway.

Remember - They are on a Mission to Repair the Brand
Get Basic D&D to anyone who wants it, for free, and even update the Basic Set with content from time to time and make it 1-20th.  
The Microlite and OD&D people? Done (with the hope they will buy the 3 main books for options, but not counting on it if they don't).

Get the Starter Set into as many stores as possible, let the kids pick up and play, give away free chargen pdfs, push the ground game of Organized Play in physical stores.  
Kids? Done

The 3 main books will come out and give people the classic D&D book experience.  
Rest of the OSR people? Done  
3ers and 4ers?  Getting there, depending on how much of their advanced chargen,tactical minis play and storybased ruleplay is actually going to be in the books.

They're not expecting to pick up every member of every faction again, but they hoping they can at least get some kind of product, even if it's free, to repair the brand with every member of every faction, maybe enough to at least try the New D&D.

This might be a drop in the bucket compared to the buildup of a new Magic release, but for WotC and D&D, this is a full-court press.

Quote from: Simlasa;752839Yeah... the Basic version looks like the way to go. Screw the 'Starter Set'.

$12.66?  I spend more than that on pdfs I know I'm never gonna run but want to read what options and ideas are in there.  Damn right I ordered it.

Quote from: CRKrueger;752832Yeah the bullshit is getting pretty thick.  You got Mistwell in white knight mode, you got Marley doing her passive-aggressive poke Ben thing, you got the usual anti-grog suspects representin' and you got the budding 5anatic 5acrosanct jumping in 'cause he gets to argue with Jeff over something again.

We know there's a whole lot of tangential dishonest bullshit behind people's arguing when Windjammer and Ben are in 100% agreement and in this case Skywalker and I are in 100% agreement.

 Anyone who disagrees with that statement has lost their reason due to personality bullshit and needs to step off the internet for a while because they're making themselves look like a raving lunatic.  That statement is an axiom.

Now if you want debate whether or not by having the chargen rules removed from the Starter Set box as an adjunct pdf, they are truly missing from the Starter experience, go ahead, but that's a matter of opinion anyway.

Now that other shoe has dropped, we finally know what Pundit was talking about.  We can move on from the Starter Set.

Basic D&D going from 1-20th and continually updated with new content from releases will be free on WotC site, and that the PHB, DMG, and MM will be optional to Basic D&D.

Passive-Aggressive? I need to really get mean I guess. Oh yeah, what'd you talkin' about Willis?

Quote from: CRKrueger;752841The Microlite and OD&D people? Done (with the hope they will buy the 3 main books for options, but not counting on it if they don't).

Yeah, that's got me covered. I'm happy to give it a try.

Quote from: CRKrueger;752842$12.66?  I spend more than that on pdfs I know I'm never gonna run but want to read what options and ideas are in there.  Damn right I ordered it.

It's not the money... my main issue with the 'starter' was aesthetic and ideological... I've got none of that with Basic... yet.

Quote from: CRKrueger;752832and you got the budding 5anatic 5acrosanct jumping in 'cause he gets to argue with Jeff over something again.

Yeah, I wonder about his attraction to me. It seems unhealthy.

Quote from: Marleycat;752824Except both of you are wrong...we all are on the internet? What? Shut the fuck up both of you.

No. I'll just download the Basic Set and see if it is worth the effort.

Quote from: Marleycat;752824And anytime you want to build me a fair character Jeff you're on.

Though if it's a dwarven fighter it could get bloody.:)

Deal.

Just let me know of any restrictions due to game and setting.

Quote from: Marleycat;752804Ok, I'll bite. Explain please.:)

Flashy entry into the lion's den, filled with motivation, panache, family history, higher education, and all kinds of character and the first time he enters battle, full of promise and glory ...

Quote from: Saplatt;752850Flashy entry into the lion's den, filled with motivation, panache, family history, higher education, and all kinds of character and the first time he enters battle, full of promise and glory ...

You mean bullshit.:)

Quote from: jeff37923;752848No. I'll just download the Basic Set and see if it is worth the effort.






Deal.

Just let me know of any restrictions due to game and setting.

Really wish I could be either in a game with you or something your running either way I trust you. How about this? When I find a 5e game you create the pregen?

Quote from: Marleycat;752852You mean bullshit.:)

It's a Game of Thones/Song of Ice and Fire reference.  And I'd be quite happy indeed if my character had an Oberyn-like career...

Great post Windjammer!

Quote from: The Butcher;752752There is no way in hell you can persuade anyone that this is a selling point.

Of course you can! Just find a blogger and promise to put his name in the credits...

Quote from: Benoist;752763This thread keeps on giving.

If the tears wept in these 5e threads were alcoholic, my liver would have given out days ago.

Quote from: Skywalker;752766When JRR Tolkien ran the Starter Set for the Hobbit for 14 players, it had only 4 pregens - Gandalf, Bilbo, Thorin and Dwaliloifur. He made do.

AWESOME!!!

Quote from: Iosue;752856It's a Game of Thones/Song of Ice and Fire reference.  And I'd be quite happy indeed if my character had an Oberyn-like career...

Sorry I don't like his writing so never read past book 1. And never watched the show so completely misunderstood. Sorry.

Quote from: Simlasa;752796It seems so easy to put the chargen in the box that the only reasons (that I can believe) not to are all skeezy marketing wank to push some sort of guided experience.

Quote from: jeff37923;752820So if WotC didn't think that the Starter Set was crippleware without chargen, then why create the http://wizards.com/dnd/Article.aspx?x=dnd/4ll/20140527 (//%5Burl)]Basic Set?[/URL]

If we move beyond questions of ideology, the to me most plausible explanation is that (1) the character generation rules were not ready at the time the Starter Set went off to the printers and (2) that WotC wanted to avoid repeating their fumble with 4e Essentials where players could not progress from the Starter Box to the actual ruleset without remaking their characters. I also think these are sane reasons to avoid char-gen in the Starter Box, but if true, these reasons also tell us that the release and consolidation of the 5e ruleset is as fragile as it was for 4e. See also this statement:

QuoteWhy the staggered release [of the 3 corebooks]? Mike Mearls says "PH/MM/DMG releases were split because stacking them causes big quality issues, a la the 4e errata. Too much work at once."

This tells us that they were unable to co-release the big 3, not that they simply chose not to for ideological or other reasons. So, I would not be surprised if the extra month they could spend before the PHB was sent off to the printers could be used to make sure that the 'Basic' PDF is at least properly aligned with the printed PHB.

(Another indication that the ruleset is - or until very recently, was - very much 'in the air' is the statement by Wolfgang Baur from KoboldPress who's still working on the Next adventure hardcovers: while Baur&co were working on the adventure, the ruleset was constantly changing. Again, seems to indicate prevalent 'last minute changes' before products were sent to the printers. I sincerely hope the 5e books won't be as errata heavy as the 4e ones, but these last minute alterations do not bode well.)

I applaud them for doing basic D&D as a free PDF. At the same time, i still like having my rules in print form at the table, so i do think it ought to be released in print as well for those interested in running purely basic D&D. For the starter set, I still think they ought to have included character creation (purely for the convenience factor of having everything there at your fingertips in the box). But it isn't the end of the world. My only concern, and for me it is a big one, is whether content will also be shifted out of the PHB/DMG. I use plenty of online resources and pdfs, but when I run a game, i still like to go by the hard copy book and do not like having to shift to the computer. So i do hope all the stuff i need to run the game is in the books themselves. Still putting out a complete game for free on the net is a good idea, it just isn't so good that they can also skimp on the book content.

Quote from: Benoist;752784When you have to actually argue with people that the ability to create your own characters however you imagine them in your head is a primary feature of tabletop role playing games, and not an obstacle to their appreciation out of the box, is when you know something is rotten in the state of Denmark.

It's a defining feature of any sort of game where you're expected to stick with the same character for about 40+ hours of play, and identify with them in some way (Rather than just watching their story progress, like a Final Fantasy game; but even they used to let you rename your characters).

That this "basic" book exists, means there is a quality starting-point product (It would be a damn shame if it's not available at least as PoD-able files), even if it is available in the wrong place (Online, as opposed to in stores). But that product is NOT the box. That box is still rubbish.

Quote from: Benoist;752784When you have to actually argue with people that the ability to create your own characters however you imagine them in your head is a primary feature of tabletop role playing games, and not an obstacle to their appreciation out of the box, is when you know something is rotten in the state of Denmark.

God help me, but I actually agree with this.

Quote from: Marleycat;752874Sorry I don't like his writing so never read past book 1. And never watched the show so completely misunderstood. Sorry.

I don't like his writing either, and did start the first book way back when, when it was first published, but never finished it. That's how bad I thought it was.

That said, the wife very recently persuaded me to watch season one of HBO's Game of Thrones, and I must say it is much better than the book, however it's still a complete train wreck as far as a fantasy story, and even when considered as an RPG.

*** SPOILER ALERT ***












































It's HBO, the network that brought several seasons of an extremely good Rome into to your home. The folks at HBO had been watching Starz though, specifically Spartacus, it would seem they really wanted to outdo the folks at Starz, so when the bought Game of Thrones and filmed it, They took all of the controversial tropes, included them while filming... ...and even focused on them turning up the shock and awe scale all the way up to eleven, even though the dial is clearly marked ten.

First episode, ...just to set the tone for the entire series, they have a couple of the nobles, Lannisters, fraternal twins, brother and sister. They are caught in an incestuous relationship by one of the Stark children (from another noble house). The Kingslayer uncouples from his sister, and then proceeds to throw the Stark boy out of the top window of the abandoned tower they all just happen to be in. Just because.

I stopped watching about right there, but the wife persuaded me to return to screening this... there are some better parts, but not many.

After watching the entire first season, I'm finding I'm liking the Dwarf, Tyrien Lannister, quite a bit. I did like Cal Drogo too. ...but he died. One of the most impressive scenes in the show so far came when one of Cals lieutenants rebelled and Cal the Barbarian dueled him to the death. In the final melee, he cuts the Lieutenants throat and rips the rebels tongue out through the hole in his throat, then holds up the bloody tongue to show all the rest of the barbarian horse tribesmen just what happens to a rebel, who speaks with no respect.

Mostly it's about a lot of intrigue and political maneuvering, with very little actually happening during every episode, except there is usually a cliffhanger right at the end. GoT was made for HBO.

The first disk from season two should be in today or tomorrow, and I'll keep watching, ...because well, The Dragons, and I must confess I'm interested in what will happen to young Arya Stark.

I'm also betting the White Walkers and Wildlings will attack in force over the ice wall, but would be surprised if HBO actually filmed any of that and managed to include it in seasons 2, 3 or 4.

I fully admit that Arya was the only reason I stuck with the books as long as I did.

I'm going to drop it and I'm not going to say anything more to spoil GOT for anyone who's watching the show without being up on the books.

Instead, I'm just going to say that I'm happy with what I've seen of 5E, I think the starter set will be very helpful in bringing in new DMs, I'm happy that so many of the basic rules are going to be free, I'm happy that two of the first six products are what look to be high-production quality adventures, I'm happy with the art I've seen, and I'm excited that the races and classes in the basic game are going to be compatible with the greater number of choices in the PHB and I'm happy that it appears highly customizable.

I don't know enough about the market to be able to predict whether this thing's going be  smash hit, a dismal flop or anything in between, but I do know that I should have most of what I want in my greedy little hands before the year is done.

At this point, my balloon is out of popping range.

Thanks for the quick rundown.

Quote from: Benoist;752703I love it how now having two paragraphs explaining how to roll ability scores, choose a race and a class for yourself, along with a couple of lines explaining the basics for each now just means you are a filthy charop denner who can't live without options.

To a first-time player, the difference between a 16 or 17 Con is likely going to be meaningless, and the difference between putting a 15 on Dex or Str is likely going to be obvious if you're using only the four basic classes. And how many race/class combos did Holmes Basic have? 10? The hardcopy starter set will have 5, and the online Basic rules available at release will have something like 16.

Take a breath, step back and think about the real scope of this 'issue'.

Quote from: Haffrung;752950Take a breath, step back and think about the real scope of this 'issue'.

Actually, this is you 5vengers who need to step back for a minute and think about the scope of this issue, along with the disproportionate response you're offering on forums like this one in order to defend what amounts to a fuck up.

Somebody criticized the 5e starter set. Not the end of the world. Really.

Quote from: Simlasa;752839Yeah... the Basic version looks like the way to go. Screw the 'Starter Set', it can go die in a fire.

Yeah, because any RPG product that doesn't meet your aesthetic and dogmatic ideals can fuck off and die and burn and then be pissed on.

Who says D&D doesn't attract obsessive, resentful uber-nerds who lack all rational sense of perspective?

I have to say that my desire to maybe download the chargen pdf and take a look at maybe playing a game have been quenched by the arguments here.

Quote from: Benoist;752952Actually, this is you 5vengers who need to step back for a minute and think about the scope of this issue, along with the disproportionate response you're offering on forums like this one in order to defend what amounts to a fuck up.

Somebody criticized the 5e starter set. Not the end of the world. Really.

Quote from: Haffrung;752953Yeah, because any RPG product that doesn't meet your aesthetic and dogmatic ideals can fuck off and die and burn and then be pissed on.

Who says D&D doesn't attract obsessive, resentful uber-nerds who lack all rational sense of perspective?

See? Disproportionate responses like this one.

Actually, Benoist, I don't think it was an entirely disproportionate response to:

Quote from: SimlasaScrew the 'Starter Set', it can go die in a fire.

Quote from: Bobloblah;752961Actually, Benoist, I don't think it was an entirely disproportionate response to:

Oh yes it was.

How so? WotC announces giving away the core of the game for free, and the Starter Set, which we don't even know the details of yet, can "go die in a fire"? Pointing out the absurd overreaction seems like one of the more reasonable things Haffrung has said in the last few days. It doesn't help your case to imply it was a response to you (by the way you quoted), when it clearly wasn't.

I agree with you about character generation - I think it would have been better to be physically in the Starter Set for a whole host of reasons - but that doesn't make some of the responses to it not being there any more reasonable.

Quote from: Benoist;752957See? Disproportionate responses like this one.

You're doing it again.  Either totally having blinders on, or are being deliberately obtuse.  Why you insist on accusing defenders of 5e for having disproportiate responses yet continue to ignore things like:

"Anyone using a pregen is missing the entire point of the game."
"Without chargen rules, the starter box is little different than a boardgame"
"Screw the starter set, it can die in fire"

and many others is beyond me.  Unless for some reason you agree with those statements.  I actually asked you point blank yesterday if you did because you are adamant about defending them, and you dodged the question.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;752966You're doing it again.  Either totally having blinders on, or are being deliberately obtuse.  Why you insist on accusing defenders of 5e for having disproportiate responses yet continue to ignore things like:

"Anyone using a pregen is missing the entire point of the game."
"Without chargen rules, the starter box is little different than a boardgame"
"Screw the starter set, it can die in fire"

and many others is beyond me.  Unless for some reason you agree with those statements.  I actually asked you point blank yesterday if you did because you are adamant about defending them, and you dodged the question.

You should've known Benoist well enough by now, that even when he writes FUCK YOU in bold large letters and you assume he's angry, he'll then say that how dare you misinterpret that because he's ever the calm and reasonable one. Because you see, I am totally calm and you're just too sensitive for Internet, you little pussy.

And that wasn't an insult, it was merely a statement of problem, and if you feel insulted, you are too sensitive for the Internet. Also strawman.

Same principle applies here really.

5e Starter Set should burn in a fire? Reasonable response.
OD&D Starter Set might be outdated in an age of constant PDF use? HOW DARE YOU SIR PISTOLS AT DAWN. I am calm.

And it goes on.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;752966You're doing it again.  Either totally having blinders on, or are being deliberately obtuse.  Why you insist on accusing defenders of 5e for having disproportiate responses yet continue to ignore things like:

"Anyone using a pregen is missing the entire point of the game."
"Without chargen rules, the starter box is little different than a boardgame"
"Screw the starter set, it can die in fire"

and many others is beyond me.  Unless for some reason you agree with those statements.  I actually asked you point blank yesterday if you did because you are adamant about defending them, and you dodged the question.

You know, I responded to your question regarding what I meant and you have ignored my response in favor of the overdramatic retort from you that if you don't like using pre-gens and would like to create your own PC that you are a charop twink from The Gaming Den. Why? Is it because it allows you to double down on your own stupid? Not 5ancrosanct enough?

Pull your head out of your own ass first. Please.

Quote from: Benoist;752971And it goes on.

So it does.

Quote from: Rincewind1;752970You should've known Benoist well enough by now, that even when he writes FUCK YOU in bold large letters and you assume he's angry, he'll then say that how dare you misinterpret that because he's ever the calm and reasonable one. Because you see, I am totally calm and you're just too sensitive for Internet, you little pussy.

Bet your ass I'm going to tell people who keep comparing me to some sort of outlandish, insane, pompous grogtard to GO FUCK THEMSELVES in capital letters. The thing is, the reason I have to write this sort of thing is precisely because of these sorts of all-or-nothing, you're-with-us-or-you-are-an-insane-fat-basement-dweller, one-criticism-so-you-must-want-the-game-to-fail arguments. That's what actually made me melt a fuse earlier. Not the game, no. This kind of completely boneheaded rhetoric did, does, and will still occasionally, I'm sure.

Quote from: Benoist;752971And it goes on.

how about you just answer the question?  do you agree with those statements?  Do you think those statements are disproportionate to the actual issue?

Let's start there.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;752975how about you just answer the question?  do you agree with those statements?  Do you think those statements are disproportionate to the actual issue?

Let's start there.

I'm going to repost my answer because apparently you're doing some selective reading on this thread.

From this post, five posts down after you asked: (http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?p=752743#post752743)

I am one of those people who believe that one of the chief aspects that differentiate tabletop role playing games from any other type of game, role playing or not, is the ability to explore the worlds of YOUR OWN imagination, and that includes the ability for the starting player to create his or her OWN alter-ego in the game-world from scratch. It is not rocket science, and if 5e does indeed live up to its promises, it shouldn't take more than a page spread to explain how to do it in the starter set.

Skipping on this is kinda like not including color on a flat-screen TV because you can always download that option from the internet later on. It doesn't make any sense to me. It is missing one of the chief defining attributes of tabletop role playing games, and what makes them distinctively attractive in addition to all the other sources of entertainment that already exist out there.

It's dumb. Flat out stupid, to me.

And requiring even just one more step, to have to go to a website and download more out of it to finally get to the actual thing that differentiates these games from everything else, is one step too much that already loses X number of newbies who could have been hooked with it if it had been in the starter set to begin with. If you do any kind of website design or anything having to do with ergonomics, you'll know that that one single additional step represents an obstacle for some people who'll just not consider it, move on to something else before they get around to do it, and so on, so forth.

Is it the end of the world? Nope. Does that mean that 5e itself will suck? I don't know. Will I check it out? I will, I have to. Do I have a grudge against WotC, do I want it to fail? Nope, quite the contrary, actually. Is it still super-dumb to not have character generation in the starter set? It is!

That's my actual position on the subject.

Yeah, again, you're dodging the question.  I read that earlier, and nothing there said you agreed or disagreed with the statements I presented, nor does it answer the question if you think those statements were disproportionate (to use your phrasing).

Since you have gone on and on with this postion of saying that only the 5e defenders have been using disproportionate phrases or reacting with hyperbole, I think you directly answering my question is very relevant.  Not sure why you keep dodging around it.

Well, I have a few ideas, but I'd rather you answer directly rather than come to my own conclusion.

No, I'm not dodging the question: That is my actual answer, and YOU are actually dodging my actual position to try and make me subscribe to someone else's. I also didn't say that 5vengers have been the only ones to overreact: I just wrote I melted a fuse earlier on this very page, for fuck's sakes. That's the rhetorical bullshit you are yourself guilty of.

If you want to talk to me, address MY points, don't try to tape someone else's on my back. Thank you.

Quote from: Benoist;752980No, I'm not dodging the question: That is my actual answer, and YOU are actually dodging my actual position to try and make me subscribe to someone else's. That's the rhetorical bullshit you are yourself guilty of. If you want to talk to me, address MY points, don't try to tape someone else's on my back. Thank you.

For Christ's sake Benoist, grow a pair for once.  You have repeatedly said that the 5e defenders are the ones blowing everything out of proportion.  When directly presented with these other statements, which certainly seem like nothing but a bunch of reactionary hyperbole to me, you not only can't admit that maybe you were wrong and it's not only the 5e fans who are being "disproportionate", but you don't even have the guts to say if you agree with them or not.  No one gives a shit about what your three paragraph answer is because no one is actually arguing against that.  People are arguing against those phrases I pointed out to you.

Simple question.  Do you think those responses are disproportionate?  Yes or no.  Everything you've been ranting about the past two days is directly tied to that answer, so it's a very valid question.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;752725Who made that argument?  No one I can see.  What I can see is someone saying that anyone who doesn't make their own character is missing the point of the whole game.  And that reeks of the Denners, since it implies that the whole point of the game is char gen, which is the primary thing they focus on, and not on actual play.

The point of RPGs is to play an imagined character in another place experiencing various situation. So yes I agree with Benoist that character generation is very much the "point" of the game.

The disconnect here is some people are associating character generation SOLELY with a series of dice rolls, formulas, and mechanics. While others are talking about character generation in its broadest sense.

You HAVE to make a character to play an RPG, the game doesn't work otherwise.

Now where I disagree with Benoist and others is that pre-gens are inferior to going through a series of steps using the game's mechanics. I say it depends on what you are trying to do.

The combination of a substantial PDF and Starter Set oriented toward Referee with pre-gens so far is acceptable to me. Not ideal but good enough. I would have done it slightly differently. But hey! It may work better than the ideas I had.

Quote from: estar;752984 The point of RPGs is to play an imagined character in another place experiencing various situation. So yes I agree with Benoist that character generation is very much the "point" of the game.

Being able to create your own character is an important part of the game, but certainly not the entire point of it.  Otherwise, by that extention, you could do nothing but do char gen (no adventuring, nothing else) and say you've played the entire point of the game.

That's just silly.  And why I made reference to the Denners because that's all they seem to place emphasis on: chargen and char op rather than actually playing the game.

QuoteYou HAVE to make a character to play an RPG, the game doesn't work otherwise..

Outright false.  You have to *have* a character to play the game.  You don't have to *make* a character to do so.  Seeing as how people have been "playing the game" with pregens for decades clearly disproves your statement.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;752895My only concern, and for me it is a big one, is whether content will also be shifted out of the PHB/DMG.

It seems clear to me that all the content in Basic is just a selected subset of the stuff in the Big Three, rather than being stuff exclusive to the basic book. (In other words, it's an implementation of the rules from the Big Three with a more limited set of races and classes and most of the optional rules not included).

Quote from: Haffrung;752950To a first-time player, the difference between a 16 or 17 Con is likely going to be meaningless.

I dunno, the first time I ever played D&D I was pretty sure 17 > 16 and therefore wasn't meaningless.

The real issue with all the bitching about Starter vs. Basic vs. free PDF vs. PHB is that none of us are in any real position to legitimately analyze which is better for the market. Say what you want about Hasbro, I am sure they know wtf they're doing.

Quote from: Warthur;752990It seems clear to me that all the content in Basic is just a selected subset of the stuff in the Big Three, rather than being stuff exclusive to the basic book. (In other words, it's an implementation of the rules from the Big Three with a more limited set of races and classes and most of the optional rules not included).

That's how I see it.  Basic rules, most common monsters (orcs, goblins, etc) will be part of the Basic set.  The Big Three will have feats, subclasses, exotic classes, beholders, mind flayers, etc.  I.e., you could play both side by side in the same game if you wanted.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;752988Outright false.  You have to *have* a character to play the game.  You don't have to *make* a character to do so.  Seeing as how people have been "playing the game" with pregens for decades clearly disproves your statement.

Not to say I necessarily agree with estar, but I believe he meant "create a character" in the broadest possible sense, which would include the "creation" that happens as you play said character.

Quote from: Benoist;752952Actually, this is you 5vengers who need to step back for a minute and think about the scope of this issue, along with the disproportionate response you're offering on forums like this one in order to defend what amounts to a fuck up.

Given the tear you've been on since the Starter Set was announced, you're the last to really talk about disproportionate responses Baked Beans. ;)

Quote from: Brad;752992The real issue with all the bitching about Starter vs. Basic vs. free PDF vs. PHB is that none of us are in any real position to legitimately analyze which is better for the market. Say what you want about Hasbro, I am sure they know wtf they're doing.

Right, exactly! And that was proven when they released the OGL, created their worst competition, published 4e, and promptly lost their lead in the marketplace. Wait, what?

Quite frankly, I'm amazed this flamefest even began, let alone is dragging on for so long.

I mean, I like to think we can agree that:

* chargen is important to an rpg, and a pretty big deal, especially for experienced players.
* you don't need to generate your own PC to play the game
* chargen isn't the entire point of what an rpg is
* lack of chargen doesn't suddenly turn the game into a boardgame.
* we'd all like to see at least some basic chargen rules in the starter set

Not sure why he have this big disconnect between "OMFG! No chargen rules in the starter set means the game fucking sucks and you miss the whole point!" and "The chargen rules are free online so shut up and quit whining!"

Why can't someone think the absence of them in the starter deck is a mistake without being told to "not worry about it", just like why can't someone think that the lack of chargen rules in the starter set isn't that big of a deal without being told they are missing the point of what an RPG is all about?

Quote from: estar;752984You HAVE to make a character to play an RPG, the game doesn't work otherwise.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;752988Outright false.  You have to *have* a character to play the game.  You don't have to *make* a character to do so.  Seeing as how people have been "playing the game" with pregens for decades clearly disproves your statement.

So where do the pre-gens come from? Somebody has to create them.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;752993That's how I see it.  Basic rules, most common monsters (orcs, goblins, etc) will be part of the Basic set.  The Big Three will have feats, subclasses, exotic classes, beholders, mind flayers, etc.  I.e., you could play both side by side in the same game if you wanted.

And weren't they promising that all along?

This is presumably why you have the "stat bonus or take a feat" rule in the playtest - in Basic you won't be taking feats but just get a stat bonus, but they've tried to optimise it so that a level 7 basic fighter and a level 7 full-PHB half-tiefling druid can meaningfully adventure in the same party - and as far as the actual mechanics go, provided the relevant players understand their own characters, they'll understand all the rules they directly interact with.

Quote from: jeff37923;753005So where do the pre-gens come from? Somebody has to create them.

*sigh*
Both your and his interpretation are potentially correct, depending on the intended use of "you" in estar's post. You both need to just give the "gotcha!" stuff a rest.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;753001Quite frankly, I'm amazed this flamefest even began, let alone is dragging on for so long.

I mean, I like to think we can agree that:

* chargen is important to an rpg, and a pretty big deal, especially for experienced players.
* you don't need to generate your own PC to play the game
* chargen isn't the entire point of what an rpg is
* lack of chargen doesn't suddenly turn the game into a boardgame.
* we'd all like to see at least some basic chargen rules in the starter set

Not sure why he have this big disconnect between "OMFG! No chargen rules in the starter set means the game fucking sucks and you miss the whole point!" and "The chargen rules are free online so shut up and quit whining!"

Why can't someone think the absence of them in the starter deck is a mistake without being told to "not worry about it", just like why can't someone think that the lack of chargen rules in the starter set isn't that big of a deal without being told they are missing the point of what an RPG is all about?

I think the popping sound of you pulling your head out of your ass just deafened me, possibly the entire North American continent.

Now if you could just admit you fucked up with your denner quips and I just might believe in miracles again.

Quote from: estar;752984 The point of RPGs is to play an imagined character in another place experiencing various situation. So yes I agree with Benoist that character generation is very much the "point" of the game.

The disconnect here is some people are associating character generation SOLELY with a series of dice rolls, formulas, and mechanics. While others are talking about character generation in its broadest sense.

You HAVE to make a character to play an RPG, the game doesn't work otherwise.

Now where I disagree with Benoist and others is that pre-gens are inferior to going through a series of steps using the game's mechanics. I say it depends on what you are trying to do.

The combination of a substantial PDF and Starter Set oriented toward Referee with pre-gens so far is acceptable to me. Not ideal but good enough. I would have done it slightly differently. But hey! It may work better than the ideas I had.

Agreed. But it also depends on what type of pregens we are talking about. Something like Dragonlance? No go but something like Star Wars? Sure!

Quote from: Marleycat;753021Agreed. But it also depends on what type of pregens we are talking about. Something like Dragonlance? No go but something like Star Wars? Sure!

Probably a variant on Tordek, Jozan, Mialee, Regdar, & Lidda.

Quote from: Marleycat;753021Agreed. But it also depends on what type of pregens we are talking about. Something like Dragonlance? No go but something like Star Wars? Sure!

Which Star Wars? For the d6 version of the game, there is still a lot of difference in practice between a template and a pre-gen.

Quote from: Warthur;753010And weren't they promising that all along?

This is presumably why you have the "stat bonus or take a feat" rule in the playtest - in Basic you won't be taking feats but just get a stat bonus, but they've tried to optimise it so that a level 7 basic fighter and a level 7 full-PHB half-tiefling druid can meaningfully adventure in the same party - and as far as the actual mechanics go, provided the relevant players understand their own characters, they'll understand all the rules they directly interact with.

Yep. At first I didn't understand that option given everybody was saying the stat bump is way better but as they made the classes more complete and allowed for you to mix and match feats and stat bumps in any combination with the fact that if you multiclass you get neither choice it really makes sense.

Quote from: jeff37923;753023Which Star Wars? For the d6 version of the game, there is still a lot of difference in practice between a template and a pre-gen.

I was thinking of the D6 version when I wrote that.

Oh my gosh!

Quote from: Simlasa;752839Yeah... the Basic version looks like the way to go. Screw the 'Starter Set', it can go die in a fire.

Total hyperbole on my part.
Is there a 'smiley' for hyperbole? Am I the only who admits to indulging in it here?
Again, for the record, I have a very low interest in any of this.
I'm generally not a D&D guy except through some OSR games, relatively recently. My interest in 5e was only raised, slightly, by the idea of being able to buy a cheap boxed set that was either mistakenly implied or inferred or a bit of both to be 'complete'... and the arguing that ensued over what 'complete' is for an RPG... what 'basic', 'starter' and 'beginner' mean... blah, blah, blah.
Saying 'it can go die in a fire' was just me slamming the door on this argument thread because the Basic is what I'd hoped the Starter would be. Over and done.
Do I still think the Starter is a lesser thing that could have been better... yep. Am I crying tears, raising my blood pressure, doing anything except enjoying a bit of argument on an internet forum about RPGs? Nope.
My issues with the Starter were entirely ideological and aesthetic... nothing to do with 5e as a whole because I really have no clue about what changes it brings.

Because I really don't care and never got hot about it I've tried to play nice and not make any of it personal... no insults... unlike Trenchiron, Marleycat, Mistwell... who can't seem to keep it in their pants.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;753001I mean, I like to think we can agree that:

* chargen is important to an rpg, and a pretty big deal, especially for experienced players.
* you don't need to generate your own PC to play the game
* chargen isn't the entire point of what an rpg is
* lack of chargen doesn't suddenly turn the game into a boardgame.
* we'd all like to see at least some basic chargen rules in the starter set

Yep, agreed.

QuoteNot sure why he have this big disconnect between "OMFG! No chargen rules in the starter set means the game fucking sucks and you miss the whole point!" and "The chargen rules are free online so shut up and quit whining!"

Because this is the internet? Because everyone talks in absolutes and draws lines in the sand over... everything.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;752983For Christ's sake Benoist, grow a pair for once.

The day you'll admit to being being wrong and an asshole in conversations like this one without trying to weasel your way around it at the 11th hour is the day I'm going to be impressed.

Quote from: Marleycat;753027Yep. At first I didn't understand that option given everybody was saying the stat bump is way better but as they made the classes more complete and allowed for you to mix and match feats and stat bumps in any combination with the fact that if you multiclass you get neither choice it really makes sense.

From the get go, I've always said the choice isn't an obvious one.  During the Denner invasion here, and normal posters at TBP, you had a lot of people argue that a stat bump was always best, but that's because they couldn't think outside of the box.  Even on the earlier versions of the classes, there were several combinations that were either mathmatically more effective (assassin rogue with alertness feat), or might not have seemed more effective from a DPS perspective, but in actual game play allowed you to do a lot (the arcane archer feat for example)

The problem with people who said stat bumps always were better only looked at the game from a DPS POV, rather than an actual play POV.

Quote from: Benoist;753037The day you'll admit to being being wrong and an asshole in conversations like this one without trying to weasel your way around it at the 11th hour is the day I'm going to be impressed.

So that's a "no" then.  You refuse to answer that simple question.  Insulting me like this doesn't change the fact that you refuse to do so.  Thus my comment about your lack of integrity and/or courage, because I can't for the life of me figure out what other reason you'd have for refusing to answer that simple question.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;753039So that's a "no" then.  You refuse to answer that simple question.  Insulting me like this doesn't change the fact that you refuse to do so.  Thus my comment about your lack of integrity and/or courage, because I can't for the life of me figure out what other reason you'd have for refusing to answer that simple question.

That's settled then. You still don't want to be wrong, and are still an asshole about it.

OK. Going back to work now.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;753001Not sure why he have this big disconnect between "OMFG! No chargen rules in the starter set means the game fucking sucks and you miss the whole point!" and "The chargen rules are free online so shut up and quit whining!"

"the game" != "this one specific product"

Quote from: Benoist;753040That's settled then. You still don't want to be wrong, and are still an asshole about it.

OK. Going back to work now.

:boohoo:

For fuck's sake Benoist, I'm not the one who made a claim to be wrong about.  Now you're just spouting nonsense and trying to be a victim to boot?

You're the one who made the claim about 5e defenders, not me.  Either man up and own it and actually prove it, or acknowledge you were wrong and 5e defenders aren't the only ones who have resorted to rediculous hyperbole.  Answering that question I posted would solve this once and for all.

The fact that you refuse speaks volumes.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;753038From the get go, I've always said the choice isn't an obvious one.  During the Denner invasion here, and normal posters at TBP, you had a lot of people argue that a stat bump was always best, but that's because they couldn't think outside of the box.  Even on the earlier versions of the classes, there were several combinations that were either mathmatically more effective (assassin rogue with alertness feat), or might not have seemed more effective from a DPS perspective, but in actual game play allowed you to do a lot (the arcane archer feat for example)

The problem with people who said stat bumps always were better only looked at the game from a DPS POV, rather than an actual play POV.

I get the feeling Denners never actually play any game but just make up white room scenerios. And I do remember you saying that but it never came together for me until the final playtest packet.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;752988Being able to create your own character is an important part of the game, but certainly not the entire point of it.  Otherwise, by that extention, you could do nothing but do char gen (no adventuring, nothing else) and say you've played the entire point of the game.

QuoteThe point of RPGs is to play an imagined character in another place experiencing various situation.

Three parts to my statement. All three need to be present. Benoist is not arguing otherwise and neither am I.

Quote from: estar;753046Three parts to my statement. All three need to be present. Benoist is not arguing otherwise and neither am I.

Sorry if I misinterpreted you earlier.

Quote from: estar;753046Three parts to my statement. All three need to be present. Benoist is not arguing otherwise and neither am I.

I apologize for being unclear.  My response was mainly referring back to Jeff's statement that playing with a pregen misses the entire point of the game.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;753044For fuck's sake Benoist, I'm not the one who made a claim to be wrong about.  

Quote from: Sacrosanct;752691*Edit*  Because your post seems to strongly imply that the purpose of the game is to create your own characters.  You know do does think char gen is the purpose of the game?  Denners.  Is that the side you want to align with?

Case closed.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;753053I apologize for being unclear.  My response was mainly referring back to Jeff's statement that playing with a pregen misses the entire point of the game.

And you were wrong about this too.

Quote from: jeff37923;753057And you were wrong about this too.

Really?  So you didn't say this:

Quote from: jeff37923;752664You know, these are role-playing games. If you cannot create a character for yourself to role-play, but must use someone else's pre-gen, that kinda defeats the purpose of playing the game.

C'mon guys! It's done and finished. The starter set has no character generation it's going to be online like or hate it that is the deal.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;753038The problem with people who said stat bumps always were better only looked at the game from a DPS POV, rather than an actual play POV.

100% this. Of course, sometimes in actual play there'll be situations where DPS is king, but if a PC has the tricks and wit to allow the party to avoid an attrition-based fight then you don't need to bring out the DPS gun at alll.

Quote from: Warthur;753070100% this. Of course, sometimes in actual play there'll be situations where DPS is king, but if a PC has the tricks and wit to allow the party to avoid an attrition-based fight then you don't need to bring out the DPS gun at alll.

Exactly.  One of the things that always bothered me about those types of discussions.  90% of my game play did not happen in an arena with no environmental influences.  Judging a game based only on arena-style combat scenarios does teh game a huge disservice.

I don't see what the big deal is myself, I grew up with pre-gens, Every D&D module and Traveller adventure had them. They were good to glean info on what type of character was deemed useful by the designer, and handy in that you could use them as automatic NPC's, PC's for drop-in players, or replacement characters for when your character was killed.

The best part of chargen, creating some absurdist backstory paragraph, was still there. You could move on without missing a beat.

Quote from: dragoner;753078I don't see what the big deal is myself, I grew up with pre-gens, Every D&D module and Traveller adventure had them.

Has anyone really been talking bad about pre-gens? I haven't seen it. The issue was lack of chargen... which pre-gens don't entirely make up for. I'm fine with playing pre-gens, once in a while... but they weren't part of my intro to RPGs... they seem like a compromise, a lesser thing.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;753062Really?  So you didn't say this:

I knew you were reading my posts and were just too embarrassed to respond.

Quote from: Simlasa;753083Has anyone really been talking bad about pre-gens? I haven't seen it. The issue was lack of chargen... which pre-gens don't entirely make up for. I'm fine with playing pre-gens, once in a while... but they weren't part of my intro to RPGs... they seem like a compromise, a lesser thing.

Yes and no, half the discussion has been hyperbole like: "I don't support throwing a kitten in a chipper-shredder, and anyone who doesn't blow me, is throwing a kitten in the chipper-shredder!" Which is classic obfuscation, imo; chargen has been there, afaik, just not in the box.

It becoming evident what going is misstep in marketing by Wizards. Does anybody seriously have a problem if it was explained like the following.

QuoteCome July you will be able to download a free PDF that includes all the character generation rules for the classic four classes from levels 1 to 20 and the classic three races. In addition for $20 you will be able to purchase a The D&D Dungeon Master Starter Kit that contains adventure material, aides, and pre-gens to allow a group of players to quickly get started with D&D 5e.

Along with this we are releasing Tyranny of Dragons adventure that in addition to the adventure will include all the rules you will need to play that not in the Basic D&D PDF. Finally the Player Handbook with the complete of character creation rules will be released at Gen Con and to stores in August.

Depending on budget and demand we may take advantage of advances in printing technology to offer a printed version of the BASIC D&D rules.

Well, I mean, when you put it like that...

Quote from: estar;753090It becoming evident what going is misstep in marketing by Wizards. Does anybody seriously have a problem if it was explained like the following.

Yup, that would have lowered the turmoil by a whole lot.
Now some will come along and say, 'But that's exactly what they've been saying all along!'...

Quote from: estar;753090It becoming evident what going is misstep in marketing by Wizards. Does anybody seriously have a problem if it was explained like the following.

They should hire you immediately.:)

Quote from: Simlasa;753083Has anyone really been talking bad about pre-gens? I haven't seen it. The issue was lack of chargen... which pre-gens don't entirely make up for. I'm fine with playing pre-gens, once in a while... but they weren't part of my intro to RPGs... they seem like a compromise, a lesser thing.

Quote from: dragoner;753089Yes and no, half the discussion has been hyperbole like: "I don't support throwing a kitten in a chipper-shredder, and anyone who doesn't blow me, is throwing a kitten in the chipper-shredder!" Which is classic obfuscation, imo; chargen has been there, afaik, just not in the box.

Got it in one.

Quote from: dragoner;753089Yes and no, half the discussion has been hyperbole like: "I don't support throwing a kitten in a chipper-shredder, and anyone who doesn't blow me, is throwing a kitten in the chipper-shredder!" Which is classic obfuscation, imo; chargen has been there, afaik, just not in the box.

That's been flying out of both sides of the argument. But as usual, when 'my side' is doing it I can see it as intentional comedy... when the other side does it I read it as 'Holy cow that guy is a dick!'

Quote from: Simlasa;753097That's been flying out of both sides of the argument. But as usual, when 'my side' is doing it I can see it as intentional comedy... when the other side does it I read it as 'Holy cow that guy is a dick!'

I'm either too old to care or something, I don't really have a side other than, it seems nice they actually did keep it out of the box and as a pdf, because if it was in the box, wouldn't you have to pay for it? Free kind of gives me a warm and fuzzy feeling ... as well as saying that maybe I'll take a look at it. But I might play a pre-gen too, I'm crazy like that.

Quote from: jeff37923;753095Got it in one.

Yup. ;)

Quote from: dragoner;753098I'm either too old to care or something, I don't really have a side other than, it seems nice they actually did keep it out of the box and as a pdf, because if it was in the box, wouldn't you have to pay for it?

I'd assume... and I would have. It's an aesthetic thing for me, partly... wanting all of it together as a thing. Not a 'hybrid' or nicely made books and a pile of printouts. I'm not 'afraid' of PDFs... but actual hardcopies retain certain strengths.

I think that there is a significant advantage to having chargen in the primary book. Besides the advantages for Players, it also gives the GM some advantages. How can you create NPCs that integrate fully with the rules without having chargen? Any NPCs you create without chargen rules are very likely going to be slightly off from what is created with the chargen rules available.

Quote from: Simlasa;753101I'd assume... and I would have. It's an aesthetic thing for me, partly... wanting all of it together as a thing. Not a 'hybrid' or nicely made books and a pile of printouts. I'm not 'afraid' of PDFs... but actual hardcopies retain certain strengths.

How much of it all are you going to buy for completeness's sake? Because that is what I see when I read the word "aesthetic" often enough. Some people only GM as well, so it has an effect there, esp for making NPC's, which for that I do understand, from the GM's viewpoint.

Quote from: jeff37923;753106I think that there is a significant advantage to having chargen in the primary book. Besides the advantages for Players, it also gives the GM some advantages. How can you create NPCs that integrate fully with the rules without having chargen? Any NPCs you create without chargen rules are very likely going to be slightly off from what is created with the chargen rules available.

Great minds think alike. I agree with the NPC issue. It might seem like shaving a dime to not include in print what they are giving away free; but big companies, economies of scale; accountants often figure to the hundredth of a cent, and business being business, they want their pound of flesh from any project.

Quote from: dragoner;753107How much of it all are you going to buy for completeness's sake? Because that is what I see when I read the word "aesthetic" often enough.

Like I've said. I'm not that much of a D&D guy. So if this Basic thing is what it seems to want me to think it is... that's about it... and some modules if they appeal to me.
There's no way am I going to be a 'completist' about this... in so far as I want to have everything WOTC puts out for it. That shit is for comic books and gaming miniatures.

What really is the difference in a rules light game between a pregen with the numbers filed off and a PC created with character gen, besides random stats, which are easy enough to create, and stuff that have no rules attached to it like name background cool scars etc. The only other thing I can think of for some at least are spells but most low level spell choice is fairly limited anyways.
I get its the internet and people are gonna go hardline one stance or the other, right away but im curious about the whole thing. Starter Set nonsense aside as I could care less about armchair corporate managering:

Is everyone really getting this butt hurt over roll 3d6 in order, or is there some other mechanical aspect to basic dnd chargen im missing?

What makes playing Bob the Fighter in a rules light dnd any different than playing a Fighter? Besides stuff I can just makeup, like a name or background.

Quote from: CitrusMagic;753114What makes playing Bob the Fighter in a rules light dnd any different than playing a Fighter? Besides stuff I can just makeup, like a name or background.

Like a whole lot of stuff it comes down to personal taste, traditions, knowing what you like.

I too fail to see the need to express yourself via customized mechanical decisions in a 'Starter Set'.

It isn't meant for people to have the "full experience".  It's a gateway drug.

Quote from: Simlasa;753115Like a whole lot of stuff it comes down to personal taste, traditions, knowing what you like.

Im a little confused as to what you mean, although if you are saying what I think you are, I agree.

for instance my personal taste for DnD is B/X or LotFP chargen with a few houserules. therefore a pregen and a PC I would make, aren't that different mechanically.

However If i enjoyed say Pathfinder Chargen or something with more mechanical choices then a pregen and a Chargen PC would play differently.

Neither way is wrong its just preference. Is that what you meant?

Quote from: mcbobbo;753120I too fail to see the need to express yourself via customized mechanical decisions in a 'Starter Set'.

It isn't meant for people to have the "full experience".  It's a gateway drug.

For some, like myself, being able to create a character was one of the greatest appeals of RPGs. So that was my own gateway.

I liked D&D when I first found RPGs at age 12, but I fell in love with RPGs when I found Traveller a year later and suddenly had a toolbox I could use to create my own universe that was compatable with every other universe using the Traveller rules.

Quote from: jeff37923;753128For some, like myself, being able to create a character was one of the greatest appeals of RPGs. So that was my own gateway.

I liked D&D when I first found RPGs at age 12, but I fell in love with RPGs when I found Traveller a year later and suddenly had a toolbox I could use to create my own universe that was compatable with every other universe using the Traveller rules.

You can still create the person you want to play even when you don't decide his Con bonus.

Quote from: CitrusMagic;753114What makes playing Bob the Fighter in a rules light dnd any different than playing a Fighter? Besides stuff I can just makeup, like a name or background.

Unless there are charts for rolling up penis size in the basic set, it is not complete.

Quote from: Brad;753135Unless there are charts for rolling up penis size in the basic set, it is not complete.

wait there aren't?!

I've been using the wand/staff/rod chart wrong all this time then.

Quote from: mcbobbo;753134You can still create the person you want to play even when you don't decide his Con bonus.

Hmmm, I think that character creation and playing a character are different aspects. Yes, I can grab a pre-gen and play it however I want to, but I still have not created that pre-gen. Likewise, I can create any number of different characters and play them all in the same way regardless of what the character sheet says.

What I prefer is to have a character concept in mind which I want to play, then create a character that supports that character concept.

Now, to keep Sacrosanct and the other haters from having a stroke and screaming, "That's denner thinking!" an example of what I mean by character concept is having my PC be a teenage Bard who is entranced by all of the stories and poems of adventure and derring-do which is why he decided to become an adventurer, through playing in several adventures, the Bard would grow older and wiser by learning that those adventures he thought were romantic are actually bloody and painful in reality. The character would have been my take on the Hero's Journey and response to it.

It would be tough to do that level of depth with a pre-gen.

I think this debate about char gen rules ended this morning, when they announced the Basic set pdf release. I too was pissed when I heard the boxed set wouldn't have char gen rules and had a couple of reasons why I thought it was an asinine move. But they are clearly making good on all that, and then some, so there is no reason to gripe.

Quote from: Exploderwizard;753022Probably a variant on Tordek, Jozan, Mialee, Regdar, & Lidda.

I have to admit, seeing those familiar old faces would make me fairly giddy.

Quote from: Larsdangly;753140I think this debate about char gen rules ended this morning, when they announced the Basic set pdf release. I too was pissed when I heard the boxed set wouldn't have char gen rules and had a couple of reasons why I thought it was an asinine move. But they are clearly making good on all that, and then some, so there is no reason to gripe.

You must be new here. :D

Protip Jeff:  If you don't want people making an analogy between your statements and what a Denner says, then stop saying things Denners say:

"If you cannot create a character for yourself to role-play, but must use someone else's pre-gen, that kinda defeats the purpose of playing the game."

After all, I can only go off of the words you actually say.

Quote from: dragoner;752955I have to say that my desire to maybe download the chargen pdf and take a look at maybe playing a game have been quenched by the arguments here.

No kidding!
The game is not even out yet and we have frothing at the mouth fanatics ALREADY defending the holy writ that is Ye Blessed Starter!

Ye Blessed Starter! will uplift us from the decades of tyranny suffered under the confusing heel of diabolical Chargen Dennerites! No longer will innocent young minds be corrupted and twisted by trying to comprehend the Lovecraftian Horror of Dread Roll 3d6!!!!

Next up the removal of spells because you know that stuff is just too complex for fragile young minds.

Really.

Having chargen out of the starter is perfectly fine. It gets the job done that Mentzer wanted it to do wham bam.

Telling people that liking chargen or that chargen itself is wrong thinking and stunts gameplay is just way the hell off in the depths of fruitcake land.

Someone likes a different style of gameplay? Well boo hoo hoo! Kill yourself and get it over with because that is the baser fact of playing games and if you cant accept that then its all over for you kiddo.

We have the starter which hopefully at least allows you to name the characters and gets new players right in and hopefully interested enough to step up to the real game thereafter. We have the Basic which covers quite a bit and allows the things not in the starter.

Win win situation. With a few potential speedbumps no doubt about that.

Quote from: jeff37923;753139What I prefer is to have a character concept in mind which I want to play, then create a character that supports that character concept.

Now, to keep Sacrosanct and the other haters from having a stroke and screaming, "That's denner thinking!" an example of what I mean by character concept is having my PC be a teenage Bard who is entranced by all of the stories and poems of adventure and derring-do which is why he decided to become an adventurer, through playing in several adventures, the Bard would grow older and wiser by learning that those adventures he thought were romantic are actually bloody and painful in reality. The character would have been my take on the Hero's Journey and response to it.

It would be tough to do that level of depth with a pre-gen.

I get what you're saying and oft times thats the way I like to make my characters as well.
I think the misunderstanding between what I'm saying and the people who are saying pregens won't allow what they like is this:

 assuming the basic 5e is just that, basic, there will be no mechanics to dictate how your character acts, or his personality. ie no feats or qualities or flaws. This is also how B/X or similar level DnD characters work.

Also excepting spells each class in the basic game only has one path mechanically set before it. everyone gets the same powers and upgrades or there just aren't any. Every fighter will work the same game rules wise at character generation, the only differences are the things each player makes up, like the a fore said background. Through play things might change but mechanically a basic fighter is like every other basic fighter when they start.

Therefore if you strip off all the background of a pregen in a basic dnd you are left with just the class, which is the same as every other PC of its class mechanically. Its kind of a round about way of Chargen and it only works in Basic DnD (which presumably 5e basic is) but it ends up with the same results at the end of the day, and is part of the reason I like simple rule sets because there are not that many rules messing up the concept of the character.

Its also I suppose moot point now since the chargen will be available and for free but I wanted to try and express my thoughts in a calm clear fashion so as not to be viewed as in one camp or the other. These days, as long as I get a chance to play anything I'm happy

Quote from: Omega;753157Telling people that liking chargen or that chargen itself is wrong thinking and stunts gameplay is just way the hell off in the depths of fruitcake land.
.

Has anyone actually made that argument?  I'm not saying they haven't, just that I haven't seen it.  What I have seen are people making the argument that if you aren't doing chargen on your own, then you're not "playing the game the one true way". (TM)

The starter set is more like a "dip your toes" set, with the basic PDF being the "wader" and the books being the "dive in headfirst" part.

Quote from: Exploderwizard;753022Probably a variant on Tordek, Jozan, Mialee, Regdar, & Lidda.

That'd be fine with me. I played Mailee with Jonathan Tweet as DM, I died quickly and played Jozan for the rest of the session.

I don't give a shit about what's in the starter set. I'm not a starter.

I'm a vet. Therefore i care not about the arguments for or against what is contained in a starter set.

Likewise, i have a computer - therefore i'm gonna download Basic and play the fuck out of it. Maybe even go the whole hog if i fancy it and actually buy stuff.

How'd you like them apples?

Quit stealing my plan!!!!

Quote from: Endless Flight;753168The starter set is more like a "dip your toes" set, with the basic PDF being the "wader" and the books being the "dive in headfirst" part.

The starter may be the equivalent of a monetized demo.

Though in a way buying the Starter is paying the way for the Basic.

Really really depends on what the depth of the adventure setting is.

I wish theyd stop playing coy with the details in bits and pieces and just lay it all out plain.

The way its been going so far leads to way too much guesswork and wrong conclusions.

Quote from: One Horse Town;753176How'd you like them apples?

How dare you enjoy yourself. You know who else enjoyed himself? HITLER.

can i join your game pls

They are creating a buzz in the market for sure though.

Quote from: Benoist;752952Actually, this is you 5vengers who need to step back for a minute and think about the scope of this issue, along with the disproportionate response you're offering on forums like this one in order to defend what amounts to a fuck up.

Somebody criticized the 5e starter set. Not the end of the world. Really.

You were extremely aggressive in your tone.  People responded in kind AND YOU RAN AWAY FOR A DAY because you were so disgusted.

Your ability to self-analyze is for shit lately Benoist.  It was never what you were saying, but instead how you were saying it, that got you the reaction that it did.  You were righteously indignant and they over the top outraged when people slapped you back down, and now you're in denial and pretending it was everyone else over reacting to your minor benign critique which was nothing of the sort based on the tone you chose to use.

You want to talk about disproportionate responses? Look in the fucking mirror my friend.  You did not judge this one well at all.

Quote from: One Horse Town;753176Likewise, i have a computer - therefore i'm gonna download Basic and play the fuck out of it. Maybe even go the whole hog if i fancy it and actually buy stuff.

How'd you like them apples?

Im still getting use out of the playtest pack.

Quote from: Benoist;752957See? Disproportionate responses like this one.

Hey, dumb dumb, he was not responding to you, he conveniently quoted the person he was responding to, that person's name does not in any way resemble your name, and the person had just talked about things dying in a fire.  Hence his reaction.

You really are way over-reacting to this whole thing - so much so you cannot apparently even read straight who is talking to who about what anymore.  Perhaps take a break?

Quote from: jeff37923;753139...an example of what I mean by character concept is having my PC be a teenage Bard who is entranced by all of the stories and poems of adventure and derring-do which is why he decided to become an adventurer, through playing in several adventures, the Bard would grow older and wiser by learning that those adventures he thought were romantic are actually bloody and painful in reality. The character would have been my take on the Hero's Journey and response to it.

It would be tough to do that level of depth with a pre-gen.

I don't really see why, or at a minimum I don't see why you can't with just the tiniest bit of fiat.

"Can my character be a teenager?"

"Um, so long as you don't try and change the stats because of that, sure!"

Also, 'Bard' is a problem, even with the chargen in Basic:

QuoteIt runs from levels 1 to 20 and covers the cleric, fighter, rogue, and wizard, presenting what we view as the essential subclass for each. It also provides the dwarf, elf, halfling, and human as race options.

So, e.g. a Gnomish Bard is going to require the PHB.

But in my mind this is totally okay.

Quote from: Omega;753180The starter may be the equivalent of a monetized demo.

Though in a way buying the Starter is paying the way for the Basic.

Psychologically, I think it makes more sense to sell the demo than give it away for free, for the target audience.  There are those out there who will buy a cheap introductory product, get hooked, and then buy everything else.

The first purchase decision underscores the rest that follow.

Quote from: mcbobbo;753190"Um, so long as you don't try and change the stats because of that, sure!"

That's the thing; even if you're not going into TGD-esque levels of detail, those stats matter and will affect how well the character does things, and thus how you can play him.

Quote from: Ladybird;753200That's the thing; even if you're not going into TGD-esque levels of detail, those stats matter and will affect how well the character does things, and thus how you can play him.

I disagree.  The disparity between the teenage bard scores and the adult bard scores - when you take away the intervening levels - should be close to nil.  Particularly if 'teenage' doesn't mean prepubescent.

Note here how Pathfinder considers 15 years old to be an adult - http://www.d20pfsrd.com/basics-ability-scores/more-character-options/young-characters

I checked the Rules Cyclopedia and didn't find any rules for young characters at all.

Point being, 'teenage' isn't statistical.  Neither is 'bard'.  So, what's left?

Crippleware...now with PDFs!!!

If a RPG Starter Set is designed to turn newbs into DMs, then this Starter is missing the section on how a newb DM helps newb players to make their very first characters.

Having a PDF (or an SRD) is no substitute for Chargen in the Starter where the DM learns how to lead a group in creating their 1st level characters. If you want to put all leveling up stuff as a PDF (or SRD), that's whatever, but there is NO REASON to not have 1st level chargen in your Starter set.

I am not against pregens for quick play, but if the free White Wolf quickstarts can put chargen in their pamphlets, I am not buying any arguments that WotC can't do it in their $13 box.

Even the Descent boardgame has chargen, not pregens.

Quote from: Spinachcat;753281Crippleware...now with PDFs!!!

If a RPG Starter Set is designed to turn newbs into DMs, then this Starter is missing the section on how a newb DM helps newb players to make their very first characters.

Having a PDF (or an SRD) is no substitute for Chargen in the Starter where the DM learns how to lead a group in creating their 1st level characters. If you want to put all leveling up stuff as a PDF (or SRD), that's whatever, but there is NO REASON to not have 1st level chargen in your Starter set.

I am not against pregens for quick play, but if the free White Wolf quickstarts can put chargen in their pamphlets, I am not buying any arguments that WotC can't do it in their $13 box.

Even the Descent boardgame has chargen, not pregens.

You're showing your age sir.;)


This approach even allows ME access (I have no computer but I do have a smartphone and access to a computer and printer).

DM: "Hey guys, wanna try this new game I just got?  It's D&D.  Super easy.  I'll be the DM, who basically runs the adventure, and you guys choose which of these characters you want."

"Sure, why not.  I'm game."


....hours pass...

"That's pretty cool, but next time I want to play the dwarf fighter."

DM: "How about one better.  How would like to make your own character?  Dwarf fighter or cleric or elf rogue or whatever."

"You can do that?  Yeah, I'd totally be up for that.  How?"

DM: "Simple.  Here's the link if you want to download it.  Choose your race and class, and just print out the parts you want.  Or I printed them out earlier if you want to flip through them."*




Again, ideally it would be nice to have it in the starter box, but these days?  It's really not that big of a deal to have it online accessible.

*the cost for someone to print off the free basic version is going to be cheaper than buying the book at a store, so it's not like you're out a bunch of money you wouldn't normally be if they made the basic game hardcopy.

Quote from: mcbobbo;753238Point being, 'teenage' isn't statistical.  Neither is 'bard'.  So, what's left?

Whether your bard is strong, fast, tough, smart, wise or pretty. You know, the six basic attribute scores, that affect your chances of success at a lot of things in the game.

You can say that the character is any of the above, you can want them to be any of the above, but if their six stats say otherwise, it ain't going to happen. If you're stuck using pregens and the values don't match what you want for your bard, say it's a smart bard but you want to play an agile one, you're not going to get the type of character you want to play.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;753150Protip Jeff:  If you don't want people making an analogy between your statements and what a Denner says, then stop saying things Denners say:

"If you cannot create a character for yourself to role-play, but must use someone else's pre-gen, that kinda defeats the purpose of playing the game."

After all, I can only go off of the words you actually say.

Amusingly, you are the only one making that analogy. Everyone else seems to get it.

Quote from: One Horse Town;753176I don't give a shit about what's in the starter set. I'm not a starter.

I'm a vet. Therefore i care not about the arguments for or against what is contained in a starter set.

Likewise, i have a computer - therefore i'm gonna download Basic and play the fuck out of it. Maybe even go the whole hog if i fancy it and actually buy stuff.

How'd you like them apples?

They will make a great pie.

Quote from: mcbobbo;753190I don't really see why, or at a minimum I don't see why you can't with just the tiniest bit of fiat.

"Can my character be a teenager?"

"Um, so long as you don't try and change the stats because of that, sure!"

Also, 'Bard' is a problem, even with the chargen in Basic:



So, e.g. a Gnomish Bard is going to require the PHB.

In the case of D&D 5E, yeah, I see where you are coming from. In the case of RPGs in general, I see character creation by the player of that character as optimal.

Quote from: mcbobbo;753190But in my mind this is totally okay.

Excelsior!

Quote from: Spinachcat;753281Crippleware...now with PDFs!!!

If a RPG Starter Set is designed to turn newbs into DMs, then this Starter is missing the section on how a newb DM helps newb players to make their very first characters.

Having a PDF (or an SRD) is no substitute for Chargen in the Starter where the DM learns how to lead a group in creating their 1st level characters. If you want to put all leveling up stuff as a PDF (or SRD), that's whatever, but there is NO REASON to not have 1st level chargen in your Starter set.

I am not against pregens for quick play, but if the free White Wolf quickstarts can put chargen in their pamphlets, I am not buying any arguments that WotC can't do it in their $13 box.

Even the Descent boardgame has chargen, not pregens.

I don't know who said "can't" but I agree that it would be an idiotic argument.   Particularly when WoTC is putting it in a complimentary, free product.  That alone says they clearly could have included it if they wanted to.

I also don't understand how the "crippleware" label is justified.   Acrobat Reader isn't "crippleware" because it only lets you READ PDF (the horror!)

Quote from: Ladybird;753332Whether your bard is strong, fast, tough, smart, wise or pretty. You know, the six basic attribute scores, that affect your chances of success at a lot of things in the game.

You can say that the character is any of the above, you can want them to be any of the above, but if their six stats say otherwise, it ain't going to happen. If you're stuck using pregens and the values don't match what you want for your bard, say it's a smart bard but you want to play an agile one, you're not going to get the type of character you want to play.

Character Generation in basic DnD is roll 3d6 in order. Or roll 3d6 and place them wherever you want. Or roll 4d6 drop the lowest. or do whatever the hell process you do to generate random numbers. You'd still have the above problem if you "generated" your PC.

DnD is not a point buy system at least at basic level therefore it matters not if you get said numbers from dice or a list, or a pregen.

Even later editions had you pick from certain pre generated stat lines which sounds shockingly like what you'd do if you took the pregens, stripped them of "fluff and just moved around the numbers.

Honestly at this point if people can't comprehend this they are one of two things:
1) arguing for the sake of arguing
2) a complete novice to roleplaying, but dont worry I heard this new starter  set is coming out!

Quote from: mcbobbo;753391I don't know who said "can't" but I agree that it would be an idiotic argument.   Particularly when WoTC is putting it in a complimentary, free product.  That alone says they clearly could have included it if they wanted to.

Yup. From the first playtest document. It was literally too obtuse and fun-stopping to include.
-------
Creating a Character

You begin playing the DUNGEONS & DRAGONS game by creating a character: the persona you play during the game. Before you start, you might find it helpful to think about the basic kind of character you want to play. You might be a courageous knight, a skulking rogue, a fervent cleric, or a flamboyant wizard. Or you might be more interested in an unconventional character, such as a brawny rogue who likes to mix it up in hand--‐to--‐hand combat, or a sharpshooter who picks off enemies from afar.

Step by Step

Follow these steps in order to create any character you want to play.

1. Determine Ability Scores
Much of what your character does in the game depends on his or her abilities: Strength, Dexterity, Constitution, Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma. Each ability has a score, which is a number you record on your character sheet. To begin, you generate ability scores randomly. Roll four 6--‐sided dice and record the total of the highest three rolls on a piece of scratch paper. Do this five more times, so that you have six numbers. In step 4, you will assign these numbers to your character’s ability scores. If you want to save time or don’t like the idea of randomly determining ability scores, you can assign a standard set of scores to your character’s abilities: 16, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8. The numbers you determine in this step are only the foundation of your character’s abilities, not the full picture. As you make other decisions during character creation, one or more of these numbers will be improved. Your Dungeon Master might instruct you to generate your character’s ability scores by another method.

2. Choose a Race
Every character belongs to a race, a species in the fantasy world. The most common player character races are dwarves, elves, halflings, and humans. See the “Races” document for more information. Other races might be available, at your Dungeon Master’s discretion. Gnomes, half--‐ elves, and half--‐orcs are also included in the “Races” document. The race you choose contributes to your character’s identity in an important way, by establishing general appearance and natural talents gained from culture and ancestry. Your character’s race grants particular racial traits, such as adjustments to ability scores, special senses, talent with certain weapons, or the ability to use minor spells. These traits sometimes dovetail with the capabilities of certain classes (see step 3). For example, the racial traits of lightfoot halflings make them exceptional rogues, while high elves tend to be powerful mages. Your race also indicates the languages your character can speak, plus a number of bonus languages based on your Intelligence modifier. Your DM may let you choose a regional language, or even an exotic language, instead of a standard language, depending on his or her campaign. Record the traits granted by your race on your character sheet.

3. Choose a Class
Every character is a member of a class. Class broadly describes what profession your character pursues, what special talents he or she possesses, and the tactics he or she is most likely to employ when exploring a dungeon, fighting monsters, or engaging in a tense negotiation. The most common classes are cleric, fighter, rogue, and mage. Clerics are champions endowed with magic from the gods, fighters are tough warriors and weapon specialists, rogues are experts in many areas of expertise and skullduggery, and mages are masters of arcane magic. See the documents dealing with those classes for more about them. Any of six other classes might be available, at your Dungeon Master’s discretion: barbarian, bard, druid, monk, paladin, and ranger. Your character receives a number of benefits from your choice of class. Many of these benefits are class features—capabilities that set your character apart from members of other classes. Record all the starting character information and class features granted by your class on your character sheet.

4. Choose a Background
Your character has a background, a story that describes where he or she came from, his or her original occupation, and the character’s place in the D&D world. You can select the background suggested in your character’s class description or choose a different one from among those in the “Backgrounds and Skills” document. Your DM might offer additional backgrounds beyond the ones included there. A background gives your character a background trait (a general benefit), proficiency in three skills, proficiency with certain kinds of equipment, and sometimes one or more additional languages. Record this information on your character sheet.

5. Assign Ability Scores
Now that you have decided on your character’s race and class, you have a good idea where to put your best ability scores. For example, if you created a fighter, you probably want Strength to be your highest score, and if you chose high elf as your race, you get a boost to Intelligence and are well suited to the mage class. Go back to the six numbers you came up with during step 1. Write each number beside one of your character’s six abilities to assign scores to Strength, Dexterity, Constitution, Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma. Afterward, make any changes to your ability scores as a result of your race and class choices. After these adjustments, a score can be no higher than 20. This is a good time to determine your ability modifiers. See the “Ability Modifiers” section of the “How to Play” document. Write down the modifier beside each of your scores, inside the brackets printed on your character sheet.

6. Choose Equipment Your background and class both suggest packages of starting equipment, including weapons, armor, and other adventuring gear. You can choose these packages to get started quickly. Alternatively, you can purchase your starting equipment. You have 175 gold pieces (gp) to spend. See the “Equipment” document for details. Once you have decided on your character’s starting equipment, record these items on your character sheet.
 
7. Fill in Numbers
 It’s a fact of the adventuring life that characters get into trouble. They fight with monsters and other hostile beings, they deal with traps and hazards that threaten to waylay them, and they endure brutal environmental conditions. Several important numbers determine how well your character succeeds in combat and other perilous situations: hit points (hp), Hit Dice (HD), Armor Class (AC), initiative modifier, and attack bonuses. You can find more information about these numbers in the “Combat” section of the “How to Play” document. Hit points. Your character’s hit points define how tough your character is in combat and other dangerous situations. Your character’s class description indicates how to calculate this number, which is also your hit point maximum. As you increase in level, this maximum increases too. Follow the instructions for your class, and record your character’s hit points on your character sheet. Hit Dice. A character who rests can use Hit Dice to recover hit points. A character gets one Hit Die per level. The die’s type is determined by class (and sometimes other features). On your character sheet, record the type of Hit Die your character uses and the number of Hit Dice you have. (For a 1st--‐level character, this number is 1.) Armor Class. Your character’s Dexterity modifier, armor and shield (if any), and other features contribute to your Armor Class, which represents how well your character avoids being hit in battle. If you aren’t wearing armor, your AC equals 10 + your Dexterity modifier. Otherwise, calculate your AC using the numbers given for your armor or shield in the “Equipment” document, and record the total. Initiative modifier. Characters act in combat in a sequence according to their initiative. Your character’s initiative modifier equals your Dexterity modifier plus any modifiers from class, race, or other features. Once you have determined your initiative modifier, note it on your character sheet. Attack modifiers. A character can make two kinds of attacks: melee (hand--‐to--‐hand combat) and ranged (attacks made from a distance). Your melee attack modifier is your Strength modifier plus bonuses or penalties from other sources. Your ranged attack modifier is your Dexterity modifier plus bonuses or penalties from other sources. You add your proficiency bonus (+1 for a 1st--‐level character) to attack rolls with weapons you’re proficient with. Write down your total attack modifiers, using the weapons your character wields, on your character sheet. Some characters can cast spells. If your character can, your class description states which ability (usually Intelligence or Wisdom) your character uses for your spellcasting. This is most commonly used when a spell requires the target to make a saving throw; your class description explains how to calculate the Difficulty Class (DC) for this saving throw against the spells you cast. Record this saving throw DC on your character sheet.
Proficiency Characters can acquire proficiency—from their class, race, background, and feats—in any of a variety of equipment, skills, and saving throws. Proficiency is often reflected in the addition of a character’s proficiency bonus (derived from the character’s level) to an ability check, saving throw, or attack roll. Armor. You need to be proficient with armor to wear it effectively. If you put on armor that you cannot use, you have disadvantage on checks, saving throws, and attack rolls that involve Strength or Dexterity. Weapons. When you attack with a weapon you’re proficient with, you add your proficiency bonus to your attack roll. If you attack with a weapon you’re not proficient with, you have disadvantage on the attack roll (and you don’t add your proficiency bonus). Saving Throws. When you have proficiency in a specific kind of saving throw, you add your proficiency bonus to your saving throws of that type. Skills. When you have proficiency in a skill, you add your proficiency bonus to ability checks you make that involve that skill. Tools. When you have proficiency with a kind of tool, you add your proficiency bonus to any ability check you make using that tool.
8. Describe Your Character
Here’s where you fill in the physical and personality details about your character. Spend a few minutes thinking about what he or she looks like and how he or she behaves in general terms. It’s a good idea to take into account your character’s ability scores and race when making these decisions.
Name You should come up with a suitable name for your character. Your character’s race description includes name suggestions for members of that race.
Physical Traits You can decide on your character’s height and weight, using the information provided in your race description, as well as hair, eye, and skin color, and age if desired. To add a touch of distinctiveness, you might want to give your character an unusual or memorable physical characteristic, such as a scar, a limp, or a tattoo. Note these details on your character sheet.
Goals and Motivations A backstory, even if it’s brief, can help guide you when roleplaying your character. Background and specialty are good starting points for thinking about your character’s goals, taking into account upbringing, homeland, life--‐changing events, training, and the like. You might also want to discuss your character’s goals and motivations with your DM; talking about these details paves the way for the DM to craft adventures that get the players involved.
Alignment A typical creature in the worlds of DUNGEONS & DRAGONS has an alignment, which broadly describes its moral and personal attitudes. Alignment is a combination of two factors: one identifies morality (good, evil, or neutral), and the other describes attitudes toward society and order (lawful, chaotic, or neutral). […]
Personality Some notes about your character’s personality can breathe life into your roleplaying. How does your character respond to stress, danger, or moral crises? Perhaps he or she has an unusual behavioral or personality quirk, such as a nervous tic, a lisp, or a raspy voice.
9. Play!
Once you create your character, you’re ready to start playing. Each character plays a role within a party, a group of adventurers working together for a common purpose. Teamwork and cooperation greatly improve your party’s chances to survive the many dangers you face in the worlds of DUNGEONS & DRAGONS. Talk to your fellow players and your DM to decide whether your characters know one another, how they met, and what sorts of quests the group might undertake.

Races
The worlds of DUNGEONS & DRAGONS feature a rich tapestry of cultures and societies, kingdoms and empires, lands populated by beings both strange and familiar. Although humans are the most common peoples in the game’s worlds, they exist alongside many other humanoid races. The most common are dwarves, elves, and halflings, followed by gnomes, half--‐elves, and half--‐orcs. Your Dungeon Master might allow other races as well; this document also includes dragonborn, drow, kender, tieflings, and warforged. Your character belongs to one of these peoples. Your choice of race affects many different aspects of your character. It establishes fundamental qualities that exist throughout your character’s adventuring career. When making this decision, keep in mind the kind of character you want to play. For example, a halfling could be a good choice for a sneaky rogue, a dwarf makes for a stout warrior, and an elf can be a master of arcane magic. Each race’s description includes information to help you roleplay a character of that race, including personality, physical appearance, and features of society. These details are only suggestions to help you think about your character; adventurers can and do deviate widely from the norm for their race.

Dwarf
 Many ages have passed since the dwarven kingdoms commanded the world. Their mightiest strongholds, delved into misty mountains, have long since fallen into shadow’s hands. The magnificent walls now lie in rubble, shattered by giants’ boulders and invaders’ siege engines. Where once dwarf miners tunneled through rock and toiled at the forges, now orcs and goblins roam. The fabulous riches for which they are famed have been plundered by enemies from below. And yet, the dwarves remain. They remember their ancient glories. And they crave vengeance gainst the enemies who brought them low.
As a dwarf, you have the following racial traits. Ability Score Adjustment: Your Constitution score increases by 1. Size: Medium. Speed: 25 feet. Your speed is not reduced by wearing heavy armor with which you have proficiency or for carrying a heavy load. Darkvision: You can see in darkness within 60 feet of you as if it were dim light. When you do so, your vision is in black and white. Dwarven Resilience: You have advantage on saving throws against poison, and you have resistance against poison damage. Dwarven Weapon Training: You have proficiency with the battleaxe, handaxe, throwing hammer, and warhammer. Stonecunning: You have advantage on any Intelligence (History) check related to the origin of particular stonework. Additionally, when exploring underground environments, you cannot become lost. Languages: You can speak, read, and write Common and Dwarvish.

Elf
Elves are an ancient and powerful people, whose years are long and whose passions run deep. They form tight communities in hidden forests but mingle freely with other humanoids, always welcome yet never at home. Elves favor things of natural and simple beauty and are famed for their poetry, dance, song, lore, and magical arts. When danger threatens their woodland homes, however, they reveal a stern martial side, demonstrating skill with sword, bow, and battle strategy.
As an elf, you have the following racial traits. Ability Score Adjustment: Your Dexterity score increases by 1. Size: Medium. Speed: 30 feet. Low--‐Light Vision: You can see in dim light as well as you do in bright light. Elf Weapon Training: You have proficiency with the long sword, short sword, shortbow, and longbow. Keen Senses: You have advantage on Wisdom (Perception) checks. Fey Ancestry: You have advantage on saving throws against being charmed, and magic cannot put you to sleep. Trance: Elves do not need to sleep. Instead, they meditate deeply for 4 hours a day. (The Common word for such meditation is “trance.”) While meditating, you can dream after a fashion; such dreams are actually mental exercises that have become reflexive through years of practice. After resting in this way, you gain the same benefit that a human does from 8 hours of sleep. Languages: You can speak, read, and write Common and Elvish. Subrace: Choose a subrace.

Human
Short‐lived but influential far beyond their years, humans have rapidly spread across the worlds of D&D. Most are the descendants of pioneers, conquerors, traders, travelers, refugees, and others on the move. As a result, human lands are home to a mix of people—physically, culturally, religiously, and politically diverse. Hardy or fine, light--‐skinned or dark, showy or austere, primitive or civilized, devout or impious, humans run the gamut.
As a human, you have the following racial traits. Ability Score Adjustment: Your ability scores each increase by 1. Size: Medium. Speed: 30 feet. Languages: You can speak, read, and write Common and one extra language of your choice.

Quote from: CitrusMagic;753398Character Generation in basic DnD is roll 3d6 in order. Or roll 3d6 and place them wherever you want. Or roll 4d6 drop the lowest. or do whatever the hell process you do to generate random numbers. You'd still have the above problem if you "generated" your PC.

Actually, no. If you really generated your PC then you would roll stats then parse the results into a character of some sort. That is the difference between actual character generation and just rolling stats.

Besides just numbers the fluff stuff about a character can be important for a first impression.

Imagine a group of young boys getting a starter set and setting up for play:

" Everyone pick a character and lets get started."

" Umm. This elf has tits. I don't wanna play a girl."

" Yeah and this dwarf looks retarded. I wanna play a human fighter."

" Aw man why do I get stuck playing the short guy."

" I'll trade you my elf girl."

Quote from: jeff37923;753350Amusingly, you are the only one making that analogy. Everyone else seems to get it.

Get what?  That if you play with pregens it defeats the whole point of the game like you said?

No Jeff, no one else "gets that".  The only person to remotely defend you is Benoist (defense by calling everyone else names; even he refuses to actually say if he agreed with you or not), and several people have said you're both off the rails on this one.

So I'm not sure what you're trying to say that "everyone else gets".

Given in Jeffs preferred game you can die during character generation, is it any surprise he's focused on charop?

Quote from: Exploderwizard;753405Actually, no. If you really generated your PC then you would roll stats then parse the results into a character of some sort. That is the difference between actual character generation and just rolling stats.

Besides just numbers the fluff stuff about a character can be important for a first impression.

Imagine a group of young boys getting a starter set and setting up for play:

" Everyone pick a character and lets get started."

" Umm. This elf has tits. I don't wanna play a girl."

" Yeah and this dwarf looks retarded. I wanna play a human fighter."

" Aw man why do I get stuck playing the short guy."

" I'll trade you my elf girl."

See that makes sense and I agree to some degree.

That being said the sort of children that this starter set hopes to hook should have enough imagination to figure out how to use the system however they want. ie your elf girl is now a boy.

When my friends started gaming all we had were some of an uncles "weird dice" and a very base understanding how dnd worked via word of mouth, and we played quite a few sessions this way before we got the uncles Moldvay book. And after a few sessions with the book the first thing we did was split race and class because we didnt like it as one. This was all before the internet, we just figured it out in my backyard. Was it how ADnD did it? no. Was it balanced? no Did we have fun and did it spark what is now a 20 year long hobby? hell yes.

I wouldn't underestimate the creativity of children. Especially ones that are interested enough in dwarves, wizards and dragons, that they buy a starter set.

Quote from: Mistwell;753411Given in Jeffs preferred game you can die during character generation, is it any surprise he's focused on charop?

Good lord, shut the fuck up with the "charop" shit already.

Quote from: kythri;753425Good lord, shut the fuck up

Wise words.

Quote from: kythri;753425Good lord, shut the fuck up with the "charop" shit already.

No shit, Mistwell and 5acrosanct are starting to sound like Seanchai and Abyssal Maw from back in the day.

Quote from: Mistwell;753411Given in Jeffs preferred game you can die during character generation, is it any surprise he's focused on charop?

And what a glorious charop it is!!! :D

Quote from: Windjammer;753402Yup. From the first playtest document. It was literally too obtuse and fun-stopping to include.
-------
Creating a Character

TLDR.  Genuinely. Are we getting paid by the word for these posts or something?

Besides, if it's already in a glib-copy-paste-ready form, why waste paper printing it out?

To paraphrase a friends sig...

QuoteJust [pick a] fuckin' guy and roll the dice, you pricks. Focus on what's interesting, not what gives you the biggest randomly generated virtual penis. -- J Arcane

Seems to match the sentiment.

Quote from: Exploderwizard;753405Actually, no. If you really generated your PC then you would roll stats then parse the results into a character of some sort. That is the difference between actual character generation and just rolling stats.

Besides just numbers the fluff stuff about a character can be important for a first impression.

Imagine a group of young boys getting a starter set and setting up for play:

" Everyone pick a character and lets get started."

" Umm. This elf has tits. I don't wanna play a girl."

" Yeah and this dwarf looks retarded. I wanna play a human fighter."

" Aw man why do I get stuck playing the short guy."

" I'll trade you my elf girl."

I am pretty sure. Or at least pretty hopeful that the pregens will be Add name, add gender.

Thats what the pregens were in the first playtest. Name, Alignment, Height, Weight, Hair, Eyes, were left blank for the player to fill in.

As noted previously that set was a human cleric, a dwarven cleric, a dwarven fighter, an elven mage and a halfling rogue.

Quote from: Omega;753449I am pretty sure. Or at least pretty hopeful that the pregens will be Add name, add gender.

Thats what the pregens were in the first playtest. Name, Alignment, Height, Weight, Hair, Eyes, were left blank for the player to fill in.

As noted previously that set was a human cleric, a dwarven cleric, a dwarven fighter, an elven mage and a halfling rogue.

Sounds like a hedge opportunity to drive traffic to your site/blog - make more pregens covering typical use cases...

Quote from: CRKrueger;753434No shit, Mistwell and 5acrosanct are starting to sound like Seanchai and Abyssal Maw from back in the day.

Interesting with the "5" in my name.  Very original.  Or not.

Can you show me a single post in this thread where I've irrationally defended 5e?  

Or maybe you're making shit up to fit a preconeived notion you might have.  

Hate to break it to you sweetheart, but if you actually read my posts, you'll see I haven't been irrationally defending 5e at all, but what I have taken issue with was Benoist's claims that only the 5e defenders were blowing things out of proportion, when clearly he had some serious blinders on because it's been pointed out many times that the 5e haters have been just as bad, if not worse, with their hyperbole.  Jeff's a prime example of that with some of the things he's said.  Changing my name to "5acrosanct" just because I happen to enjoy the game is another example.

So congrats on taking a page from TBP, assuming that if I don't decry something strongly enough (lack of chargen in the starter set), then I must somehow automatically support the opposite extreme.

Ettin would be proud of you.

Unless you can find posts of mine that even remotely allude to calling anyone who wants chargen in the rules a crybaby, or any posts where I've "irrationally" defended 5e, then I'd appreciate it if you wouldn't leap the assumption you're doing, or engaging in the same hyperbole we're talking about.

Quote from: Ladybird;753332Whether your bard is strong, fast, tough, smart, wise or pretty. You know, the six basic attribute scores, that affect your chances of success at a lot of things in the game.

You can say that the character is any of the above, you can want them to be any of the above, but if their six stats say otherwise, it ain't going to happen. If you're stuck using pregens and the values don't match what you want for your bard, say it's a smart bard but you want to play an agile one, you're not going to get the type of character you want to play.

Likely it will be using the standard array so if you can't convince your DM to let you random roll (3D6 or 4D6 drop 1) how about asking "Can rearrange these numbers to my concept ma'am?" ;)

Quote from: Marleycat;753476Likely it will be using the standard array so if you can't convince your DM to let you random roll (3D6 or 4D6 drop 1) how about asking "Can rearrange these numbers to my concept ma'am?" ;)

...well... While that would work, you would probably need the chargen rules to apply the changes.  At least a portion of them, anyway.

But yeah, if you can reassign/change attributes then the distinction starts getting harder to define.

Quote from: mcbobbo;753477...well... While that would work, you would probably need the chargen rules to apply the changes.  At least a portion of them, anyway.

But yeah, if you can reassign/change attributes then the distinction starts getting harder to define.

The rules will be available though. Heck get adventurous and ask the DM "Can I use that Rogue pregen but be an elf?" Really mess with their mind I say.

Quote from: Marleycat;753480The rules will be available though.

But not in the box, which is the whole point. It makes the box a worse starting point than other game's "Start here!" product, or the free rules download.

I wouldn't pick this product to give to a new player to demonstrate why roleplaying is awesomefun. I'd pick something (Simple!) that let them create their own characters.

(I'm not averse to pregens - one of my favourite characters is the SR3 corebook combat mage, who became the girlfriend of one of my shadowrunners. I just feel that one of the strengths of roleplaying as a hobby is the freedom it gives you, and starting with a character selection constrained by someone else's imagination doesn't seem like the best entry point to me.)

Meh. You keep thinking the product is aimed at you. It really isn't. If you actually ran a game out of the Starter Set none of your concerns would be an issue. And the segment that it's actually aimed to it's also a non-issue.

Quote from: Marleycat;753493Meh. You keep thinking the product is aimed at you. It really isn't. If you actually ran a game out of the Starter Set none of your concerns would be an issue. And the segment that it's actually aimed to it's also a non-issue.

It's aimed at new players. I get that. There are simply other options for things I could give to new players, before I would pick this one.

Quote from: Ladybird;753486I wouldn't pick this product to give to a new player to demonstrate why roleplaying is awesomefun. I'd pick something (Simple!) that let them create their own characters.

I'd be inclined to give them Swords & Wizardry... or maybe Labyrinth Lord. The kids who asked me to run 'D&D' for them had no clue there were other RPGs... and they don't really care if it's the 'official' version or not.
Oh, and an informal questioning of some kids last night, non-roleplayers... playing 'a game', would they rather play a pre-made character or make your own... %100 percent favored making up their own. (notably one kid then went on to describe the crazy over-powered ninja thing he'd make... so, hmmm)
It's one of the main draws, IMO.

Quote from: Ladybird;753497It's aimed at new players. I get that. There are simply other options for things I could give to new players, before I would pick this one.

Then do so. Nobody said you don't have options.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;753407Get what?  That if you play with pregens it defeats the whole point of the game like you said?

No Jeff, no one else "gets that".  The only person to remotely defend you is Benoist (defense by calling everyone else names; even he refuses to actually say if he agreed with you or not), and several people have said you're both off the rails on this one.

So I'm not sure what you're trying to say that "everyone else gets".

Quote from: Mistwell;753411Given in Jeffs preferred game you can die during character generation, is it any surprise he's focused on charop?

Haters gonna hate. Meh.

If the two of you were being intellectually honest for a moment, you'd get the point. It amuses me that you both think that this strawman arguement is far more worthy.

Quote from: CRKrueger;753434No shit, Mistwell and 5acrosanct are starting to sound like Seanchai and Abyssal Maw from back in the day.

Oh jeez! I wouldn't go that far. Mistwell, along with others have been kind of insulting with the whole charop/'denners' angle... and other folks throwing around 'grogtards'. But I don't think it's reached the Abyssal Maw standards of excellence yet.

I would be more understanding of the big deal about no character generation in the box if...

1. It was 2001
2. The product in question wasn't $12-$13
3. The rules weren't freely available

Quote from: jeff37923;753506Haters gonna hate. Meh.

If the two of you were being intellectually honest for a moment, you'd get the point. It amuses me that you both think that this strawman arguement is far more worthy.

I wouldn't use the term "charop" like Mistwell did because I think there's a huge difference between optimizing new characters, and creating them.  That said, it's not a strawman to say you think the purpose of the game is character generation when you literally said that not being able to generate your own characters defeats the purpose of the game.  The way English words work, your statement literally means the purpose of the game is tied to character generation.

Maybe you should stop swilling so much booze

Quote from: Simlasa;753510Oh jeez! I wouldn't go that far. Mistwell, along with others have been kind of insulting with the whole charop/'denners' angle... and other folks throwing around 'grogtards'. But I don't think it's reached the Abyssal Maw standards of excellence yet.

FWIW, the only time I mentioned the charop/denners angle was in direct response to the statement that without your ability to make your own PC, it defeats the purpose of the game.  I made that analogy because that's exactly the type of phrase the Denners have/do use.  They focus on the purpose of the game to generate and optimize characters, not that actual game playing part.

So if Jeff didn't want to be associated with Denners, then he shouldn't have made a statement that is their de facto mantra.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;753512I wouldn't use the term "charop" like Mistwell did because I think there's a huge difference between optimizing new characters, and creating them.  That said, it's not a strawman to say you think the purpose of the game is character generation when you literally said that not being able to generate your own characters defeats the purpose of the game.  The way English words work, your statement literally means the purpose of the game is tied to character generation.

Maybe you should stop swilling so much booze

Quote from: Sacrosanct;753516FWIW, the only time I mentioned the charop/denners angle was in direct response to the statement that without your ability to make your own PC, it defeats the purpose of the game.  I made that analogy because that's exactly the type of phrase the Denners have/do use.  They focus on the purpose of the game to generate and optimize characters, not that actual game playing part.

So if Jeff didn't want to be associated with Denners, then he shouldn't have made a statement that is their de facto mantra.

I'm living rent free inside your head. Haters gonna hate. Get a life, dood.

At least this gives me a smile to go into work with.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;753516So if Jeff didn't want to be associated with Denners, then he shouldn't have made a statement that is their de facto mantra.

I gave him the benefit of a doubt for not meaning it the way it came off. I can't think of anyone on here who rabidly defends/promotes charop. If they do they must be keeping it to themselves.

Quote from: Marleycat;753500Then do so. Nobody said you don't have options.

Well, yeah. I was going to. That's been my point all along.

Quote from: Ladybird;753542Well, yeah. I was going to. That's been my point all along.

I'm not mad at you. It's just that from the information I have 5e is pretty much what I and my friends want. A medium rules DnD that runs as fast and loose as 2e with some 3e customization and a magic system that ISN'T classic Vancian (it reminds me of Arcana Evolved more then anything). Though there definitely is some 4e in there (not the bad parts though).

And most important of all it will be supported and seems to be going with Pathfinder's publishing model which is a solid one.

Quote from: Marleycat;753547I'm not mad at you. It's just that from the information I have 5e is pretty much what I and my friends want. A medium rules DnD that runs as fast and loose as 2e with some 3e customization and a magic system that ISN'T classic Vancian (it reminds me of Arcana Evolved more then anything). Though there definitely is some 4e in there (not the bad parts though).

And most important of all it will be supported and seems to be going with Pathfinder's publishing model which is a solid one.

I was more confused as to why we were having an argument.

The rest of it sounds like a pretty nice game, I'm considering picking it up and running some at the club next year.

Quote from: Ladybird;753564I was more confused as to why we were having an argument.

The rest of it sounds like a pretty nice game, I'm considering picking it up and running some at the club next year.

No coffee?:o:D

Quote from: Marleycat;753570No coffee?:o:D

Coffee at this time in the evening, I won't get to sleep.

Now, beer? That, I need.

Quote from: kythri;753425Good lord, shut the fuck up with the "charop" shit already.

It was a joke...obviously (or at least, obvious to those not already up in arms and looking to take offense).  I was taking a dig at Jeff concerning Traveller, and the fact that you don't really charop in Traveller.

Quote from: JasperAK;752660That just makes the 'Starter Set' a pay-for-preview, and unless WOTC has some genius marketing plan, newbs may never get to their website to get the ACTUAL beginner set.

You know, one could figure that WoTC/Hasbro would be so utterly boneheaded to actually not include a big box near the end of the rulebook saying "GO HERE FOR MORE STUFF! ITS FREE!", but somehow I figure even they might just figure that one out.  :rolleyes:

Quote from: jeff37923;753139Hmmm, I think that character creation and playing a character are different aspects. Yes, I can grab a pre-gen and play it however I want to, but I still have not created that pre-gen. Likewise, I can create any number of different characters and play them all in the same way regardless of what the character sheet says.

What I prefer is to have a character concept in mind which I want to play, then create a character that supports that character concept.

Now, to keep Sacrosanct and the other haters from having a stroke and screaming, "That's denner thinking!" an example of what I mean by character concept is having my PC be a teenage Bard who is entranced by all of the stories and poems of adventure and derring-do which is why he decided to become an adventurer, through playing in several adventures, the Bard would grow older and wiser by learning that those adventures he thought were romantic are actually bloody and painful in reality. The character would have been my take on the Hero's Journey and response to it.

It would be tough to do that level of depth with a pre-gen.

Jeff you make excellent points about what is roleplaying but was that how you felt the very first time you played an RPG. Of course over time we become more sophisticated in what we get out if an RPG but on the first exposure there is so much else to take on board that I don't see chargen being an issue.  I get that its not the approach everyone would take but I think its a valid starting strategy to say chargen can be introduced down the line.

IMO what makes or breaks the starter set will be a lot more around the execution if what IS in there rather than what isn't. Most especially it comes down to the instructions supporting a potentially new DM and especially the quality of the starter adventure. Another Keep on the Shadowfell work be disastrous.

I also wonder if all this fuss could have been avoided if the Starter Box appeared later in the release schedule. Probably not.

Quote from: Benoist;752952Actually, this is you 5vengers who need to step back for a minute and think about the scope of this issue, along with the disproportionate response you're offering on forums like this one in order to defend what amounts to a fuck up.

Somebody criticized the 5e starter set. Not the end of the world. Really.

Oh the ironing.

Quote from: jeff37923;752820EDIT:

So if WotC didn't think that the Starter Set was crippleware without chargen, then why create the http://wizards.com/dnd/Article.aspx?x=dnd/4ll/20140527 (//%5Burl)]Basic Set?[/URL]

This is kind of like saying "if the public school board didn't think that their schools are fire hazards then why did they install fire exits in all of them??"

Obviously, IF there were no way to make characters, then the starter set would be crippleware. But there IS A WAY TO MAKE CHARACTERS, AND ITS COMPLETELY FREE.  

Ergo, NOT CRIPPLEWARE.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPundit;753984This is kind of like saying "if the public school board didn't think that their schools are fire hazards then why did they install fire exits in all of them??"

Obviously, IF there were no way to make characters, then the starter set would be crippleware. But there IS A WAY TO MAKE CHARACTERS, AND ITS COMPLETELY FREE.  

Ergo, NOT CRIPPLEWARE.

RPGPundit

Isnt that like putting the fire exits in another building?:rolleyes:

Better anology might be that the Starter is a preview for for a movie/TV series. Except the movie is free and has the character backgrounds.

Its not what some think it is. But because it looks like item A it must be item A too.

Doom that came to Atlantic City. Oh noes! The board looks like the devil game Monopoly! It MUST BE Monopoly! The Next Starter looks like a classic Basic. It must be! And ok Yeah. I fell into that mindset too at first.

The Starter is what? A primer? A glorified quick start? A module? Training wheels?

Interesting question. Will they be putting out a player Starter too? Does not look like it. But would be a viable option I think.

So far as I can tell the Starter is basically a substantial module (it's been compared to a campaign rather than a single adventure) designed specifically for beginner DMs, plus a booklet of rules help, plus dice and pregens.

If you think of it as a "Starter Adventure" rather than a "Basic Set" then it makes much more sense. Adventures coming with pregens is old and non-controversial. Adventures not coming with character gen rules is old and non-controversial. Adventures coming with enough handy details that you can play it without even consulting the Basic book? That's novel and helpful. Adventures designed to turn curious kids into novice DMs enthusiastic to learn more? That's golden.

Quote from: Omega;753991The Starter is what? A primer? A glorified quick start? A module? Training wheels?

Interesting question. Will they be putting out a player Starter too? Does not look like it. But would be a viable option I think.

A Starter is an introduction. It gives you enough material to play for a while. It doesn't include all of the functionality of the full game, but it should be compatible with the full game. In this case, 5E (the basic version) is simple enough that only the DM needs a book. The players can use pre-gens and just pretty much play.

Q&A came out (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/Article.aspx?x=dnd/dndqa/20140530) today that should answer these questions

Quote from: RodneyThe Starter Set is a physical product that contains an adventure, the core rules of the game, pregenerated characters, and dice. It’s intended to be something you can open and start playing with very quickly, providing five levels’ worth of adventure content. It’s what gets you started playing the game. This is a great place for people who have never played D&D to start, because it lets them start having adventures right away using the pregenerated characters.

The Basic rules are going to be a downloadable file that contains the core rules of the game, along with character creation rules and, eventually, monsters magic items, and guidelines DMs need to make adventures. That will allow you to build characters, plan adventures, and play all the way up through 20th level. The Basic rules provide a traditional D&D experience that will allow you to play any adventure—including those in the Starter Set—using only this file. The Basic rules are a great place to start if you’re already familiar with D&D from previous editions and want to try out the fifth edition of the game, or if you want to play through the Starter Set (or other adventures) using characters that you’ve made yourself.

Holy Aberrations Fighter-Man are we still arguing about this?

Look - wouldn't it be safe to say at this point that a) those of us impressed with WOTC's approach are not going to be convinced otherwise and b) those of us insisting that WOTC's crippleware RPG-gateway marketing evil Box Set SUXXORS are not going to be convinced otherwise?

I was just being funny for fucks sake - when I called grognards "grogtards" (But as a comedian I reserve the right to lambaste all tribes, affiliations, and self-identities. Especially since I have logged numerous hours self-lambasting. Which is not the same as self-basting, however similar.) I was ranting. The more reasonable you are in a rant, the less comedic impact it has.

All those who debated on either side are RPG Enthusiasts and how they prefer to play, see the companies supporting the hobby, or what game they prefer to play is just myriad awesome details in a sea of strangeness. I may not agree with everyone, but I'm glad they showed up. :-)

Can't we just agree to disagree at this point and stop kicking each other in the "jimmy" (jimmy = the most painful spot on your specific anatomy regardless of gender, sexual identity or preference...). The horse is not just DEAD, it's been ripped into two pieces and dragged off to each prospective camp...

Quote from: Sacrosanct;754046Q&A came out (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/Article.aspx?x=dnd/dndqa/20140530) today that should answer these questions

The amount of hassle they could have saved themselves by having that thing up when everything else was announced is immeasurable.

Quote from: Bobloblah;754081The amount of hassle they could have saved themselves by having that thing up when everything else was announced is immeasurable.

Pundit did say that straightaway.

Quote from: Marleycat;754117Pundit did say that straightaway.

That they should've had a FAQ? 'Cause I don't remember him saying much else other than platitudes due to his NDA...

Quote from: Bobloblah;754119That they should've had a FAQ? 'Cause I don't remember him saying much else other than platitudes due to his NDA...

He really did mention that he was frustrated about the order in which things were being leaked like it was ass backwards or somesuch but couldn't say what they aren't leaking because of the NDA. And now with knowing all that we know now he was completely correct.

Quote from: Fiasco;753855Jeff you make excellent points about what is roleplaying but was that how you felt the very first time you played an RPG. Of course over time we become more sophisticated in what we get out if an RPG but on the first exposure there is so much else to take on board that I don't see chargen being an issue.  I get that its not the approach everyone would take but I think its a valid starting strategy to say chargen can be introduced down the line.

IMO what makes or breaks the starter set will be a lot more around the execution if what IS in there rather than what isn't. Most especially it comes down to the instructions supporting a potentially new DM and especially the quality of the starter adventure. Another Keep on the Shadowfell work be disastrous.

I also wonder if all this fuss could have been avoided if the Starter Box appeared later in the release schedule. Probably not.

I understand the side of the arguement you are presenting, I just don't agree with it.

The first time I played was on a Boy Scout campout. I saw what the older boys were playing, asked if I could join, and was told I could take over a henchman. I was handed some d6's and told to roll three of them and do it six times then put them in order. Another boy helped with my bonuses and told me I was a second level fighter and my hit points were this. He already had equipment on a seperate sheet. We then began besieging hill giants.

Not a pre-gen, but not a solo chargen either.

OK, so the Starter Set ain't crippleware because it has pre-gens. The Basic Set doesn't have monsters, magic items, and adventure guidelines but it eventually will. So you need both to get a complete game when it iniatially comes out or you have to wait until the blanks to get filled in on the Basic Set.

Correct?

Quote from: jeff37923;754135OK, so the Starter Set ain't crippleware because it has pre-gens. The Basic Set doesn't have monsters, magic items, and adventure guidelines but it eventually will. So you need both to get a complete game when it iniatially comes out or you have to wait until the blanks to get filled in on the Basic Set.

Correct?

From what I understand about the online release schedule yes.

July 15- starter box, with character gen online.

Aug 19- PHB, with the rest of the basic game online.

Quote from: Omega;753157Telling people that liking chargen or that chargen itself is wrong thinking and stunts gameplay is just way the hell off in the depths of fruitcake land.

Um, I'm pretty sure NO ONE is arguing that.  What we do have are people on the other side claiming that character creation is the very core blood-essence of RPGs and that if you don't have it in a beginner's product it will no doubt be: a) doomed to failure and b) a monstrosity that violates the spirit of RPGs.

Both of those are wrong.

There's no problem with chargen, except that if you have a group of newbies, in their very FIRST session, the best method can often be to throw them a premade character and just get them playing, instead of demanding that they memorize 48 pages of feats before they actually get to join the Super Special D&D Club of TRUE Gamers.  Because that's all the other side of this argument is doing: its creating a litmus test. If you don't want to learn how to make a character and spend the first hour of your gaming experience dicking around with skills then you aren't a real roleplayer and don't belong in our elite society.

That's the mentality that's lead to 600 page rulebooks, to 21000 feats in certain editions of D&D, and to the hobby shrinking to a minute shadow of its once-mainstream popularity.  We PUSH PEOPLE AWAY by demanding that they have to learn the "Special Secret Handshake"  of what we consider conditions for fandom.

What I want, and what Wizards has in mind, is that a raw beginner will be treated just like I treated the raw beginners at my demo game of Lords of Olympus a few weeks back in a local con: they get the character, and you explain ROLEPLAYING to them.  THAT is the real essence of RPGs.  That's why argument "b" is bullshit: its not about making characters, its about PLAYING a character.

But NO ONE is saying that two hours after that, these kids shouldn't be downloading the Basic PDF and figuring out how to make their own characters, and start playing their own campaigns, just like gamers have done from time immemorial.

Let's face it, for most new gamers, making a first character (if indeed their first character was made) was a confusing mess of people trying to explain choices to you that you really didn't understand, and you rolling dice to generate numbers that at that time meant almost nothing to you. Its not a golden experience akin to a first kiss, its more like being awkwardly groped by someone you just met at a party.   You only start getting any good at the situation after you've tried it two or three times and had a while to figure out what the fuck is going on.

So all the starter set wants to do is simplify that experience: to get people RIGHT into the actual Role Playing, without any special rules, ordeals, or tests to be passed.  Show them the coolest things first, and easily, and then they'll have a context to understand what makes all the other stuff matter too.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPundit;754399There's no problem with chargen, except that if you have a group of newbies, in their very FIRST session, the best method can often be to throw them a premade character and just get them playing, instead of demanding that they memorize 48 pages of feats before they actually get to join the Super Special D&D Club of TRUE Gamers.

The real problem there is the '48 pages of feats'... on top of skills and special class abilities and whatnot. Is 5e still going to have all that crap to wade through?

Quote from: Simlasa;754402The real problem there is the '48 pages of feats'... on top of skills and special class abilities and whatnot. Is 5e still going to have all that crap to wade through?

No. Feats in 5e are very limited.

At various points as you level, starting at level 4, you get a stat point.

BUT.

You can instead opt to take a feat instead of the stat point.

And at least in the playtest the feats were open to about anyone. See my comments on the Barbarian with the at will ray of frost and magic missile and the shield bashing Mage. But you have to sacrifice that stat point to get the feat. On top of actually living long enough to even get so far,

Most of the classes get 5. About every 4 levels. Some got more like the Fighter and Rogue.

I assume he said that for effect in BASIC feats are not in play. It's an advanced option only and Omega explained it I think fighters get a chance for 7 feats if the option is being used.

Quote from: RPGPundit;754399Um, I'm pretty sure NO ONE is arguing that.  What we do have are people on the other side claiming that character creation is the very core blood-essence of RPGs and that if you don't have it in a beginner's product it will no doubt be: a) doomed to failure and b) a monstrosity that violates the spirit of RPGs.

Both of those are wrong.

There's no problem with chargen, except that if you have a group of newbies, in their very FIRST session, the best method can often be to throw them a premade character and just get them playing, instead of demanding that they memorize 48 pages of feats before they actually get to join the Super Special D&D Club of TRUE Gamers.  Because that's all the other side of this argument is doing: its creating a litmus test. If you don't want to learn how to make a character and spend the first hour of your gaming experience dicking around with skills then you aren't a real roleplayer and don't belong in our elite society.

That's the mentality that's lead to 600 page rulebooks, to 21000 feats in certain editions of D&D, and to the hobby shrinking to a minute shadow of its once-mainstream popularity.  We PUSH PEOPLE AWAY by demanding that they have to learn the "Special Secret Handshake"  of what we consider conditions for fandom.

What I want, and what Wizards has in mind, is that a raw beginner will be treated just like I treated the raw beginners at my demo game of Lords of Olympus a few weeks back in a local con: they get the character, and you explain ROLEPLAYING to them.  THAT is the real essence of RPGs.  That's why argument "b" is bullshit: its not about making characters, its about PLAYING a character.

But NO ONE is saying that two hours after that, these kids shouldn't be downloading the Basic PDF and figuring out how to make their own characters, and start playing their own campaigns, just like gamers have done from time immemorial.

Let's face it, for most new gamers, making a first character (if indeed their first character was made) was a confusing mess of people trying to explain choices to you that you really didn't understand, and you rolling dice to generate numbers that at that time meant almost nothing to you. Its not a golden experience akin to a first kiss, its more like being awkwardly groped by someone you just met at a party.   You only start getting any good at the situation after you've tried it two or three times and had a while to figure out what the fuck is going on.

So all the starter set wants to do is simplify that experience: to get people RIGHT into the actual Role Playing, without any special rules, ordeals, or tests to be passed.  Show them the coolest things first, and easily, and then they'll have a context to understand what makes all the other stuff matter too.

RPGPundit

No, you are wrong.

My arguement has been that when playing a role-playing game whose interface is the Player Character, that the optimal playing experience can be had by creating your own Player Character.

Can you use pre-gens? Sure, but they are sub-optimal IMHO.

No claims of dooming the precious 5E fucking Starter Set. No goddamn declarations of gaming heresy. Nobody said that we needed the Super Special Snowflake Feats and Skills edition and newbies had to memorize it.

If you want to pillory me for daring to suggest that character creation is an integral part of role-playing, and should be in a Starter Set, at least be honest about what I said.

Quote..that character creation is an integral part of role-playing

But this literally isn't correct. Character creation is a completely different thing then role-playing and it's not even required let alone integral to create your own character. It may be preferred and it may be the better choice depending on the circumstances but no it's not required or integral to role-playing in a game.

(My preferred method is to create my own but depending on the game or other circumstances I actually prefer a pregenerated character to just skip the whole mess and play).

Half the fun for me is character generation.  I also enjoy world and adventure building too.  In fact I would say that's what I spent most of time on when I was younger.

Quote from: RPGPundit;754399Let's face it, for most new gamers, making a first character (if indeed their first character was made) was a confusing mess of people trying to explain choices to you that you really didn't understand...

Sounds like me trying to make my first 4e D&D PC back in 2008. I gave up until 2009, a year later, by which time the free character builder software made it fairly easy. If someone had given me a pregen in 2008 things would have gone a lot better, I think.

Quote from: RPGPundit;754399There's no problem with chargen, except that if you have a group of newbies, in their very FIRST session, the best method can often be to throw them a premade character and just get them playing, instead of demanding that they memorize 48 pages of feats before they actually get to join the Super

What I want, and what Wizards has in mind, is that a raw beginner will be treated just like I treated the raw beginners at my demo game etc

1. False dilemma. If 5e basic chargen fits into a single post on a forum (as I proved) then its non-inclusion in the Starter can't be that it's too complicated. No one's argued that either one of pregens OR chargen should be compulsory for ALL RPG-first timers, only that both deserve to be included in the Starter so groups can make that choice themselves of how to start. Saying 'but newbs canno be trusted' or 'but newbs - let me tell you - will run screaming from chargen' makes you sound like a royal prick, and sets the presumptious tone that made early 4e PR and its DMG so grating.

2. "what I want, what WotC wants": you made a prediction in 2009 that, if you were in charge of WotC R&D, you'd have them release ONE BASIC game that's complete AND comes in a box. In the past weeks you've bent backwards to make it seem that WotC' high priest Mearls has taken your cue to make that happen when he did something rather different. Whence your self-congratulatiry posts on 'I made Basic D&D happen, you can thank me all'. Unless *WotC* comes out giving you that credit, you have - at least in my eyes - gambled away a significant chunk of your online integrity and credibility. I'll certainly think twice from now on whether you're even interested in arguing in good faith in all matters related to 5e.

Quote from: jeff37923;754424Can you use pre-gens? Sure, but they are sub-optimal IMHO....character creation is an integral part of role-playing

You don't seem to know what integral means.

If you can use pre-gens and still play a role playing game, then character creation is not integral.  Something that is integral is a NECESSARY element.  The thing cannot function if an integral part is missing.  But, the game CAN function without it.  It might not be, as you say, functioning at optimal rates, but functioning at non-optimal rates is not the same as missing an integral part and therefore not functioning at all.

Just some points to try and keep everyone from strawmanning each other to death.  This thread reads like a logical fallacy wiki.

• Roleplaying is roleplaying, whether with a pregen or a created character.
• The experience of a roleplaying game, however, needs to include both to be complete.
• Chargen is not charop.  The idea of creating a character is not the build mentality.
• Without chargen, the Starter Set box is not a complete game, Period.
• The Starter Set box is not meant to be a complete game.
• The Starter Set experience, however, can be complete with the online pdf.

Anybody know the answer to this?

Quote from: dragoner;753098... it seems nice they actually did keep it out of the box and as a pdf, because if it was in the box, wouldn't you have to pay for it?

It can also be the accountants wanting to save money on the product, even if it's $0.02, it can make a difference. What is the print run?

Quote from: CRKrueger;754474This thread reads like a logical fallacy wiki.

You're right, for things like this (bolded):

Quote

• Roleplaying is roleplaying, whether with a pregen or a created character.
• The experience of a roleplaying game, however, needs to include both to be complete.
  
• Chargen is not charop.  The idea of creating a character is not the build mentality.
• Without chargen, the Starter Set box is not a complete game, Period.
  
• The Starter Set box is not meant to be a complete game.
• The Starter Set experience, however, can be complete with the online pdf.

Why?  Because you can in fact experience playing in an RPG without ever having actually generated your own character.  As for the second bolded part, can you play a the game of D&D using only the starter set?  Absolutely you can.  We've been told as much.

If you want to complain about fallacies, how about stop resorting to them?  Being able to create a character expands the benefits of an RPG, and no one is arguing otherwise.  However, you don't need to create a character to play, or experience the game.

It's like arguing that you can't experience or play an RPG unless you gain levels.  Yes you can.  Having level progression sure helps expand the experience, but you don't need them.

Quote from: CRKrueger;754474Just some points to try and keep everyone from strawmanning each other to death.  This thread reads like a logical fallacy wiki.

• Roleplaying is roleplaying, whether with a pregen or a created character.
• The experience of a roleplaying game, however, needs to include both to be complete.
• Chargen is not charop.  The idea of creating a character is not the build mentality.
• Without chargen, the Starter Set box is not a complete game, Period.
• The Starter Set box is not meant to be a complete game.
• The Starter Set experience, however, can be complete with the online pdf.

Sounds about right. At least in general terms without pendantry

Quote from: Sacrosanct;754477Why?  Because you can in fact experience playing in an RPG without ever having actually generated your own character.  As for the second bolded part, can you play a the game of D&D using only the starter set?  Absolutely you can.  We've been told as much.

Since you read the second point, it's weird you missed the first part, where I said roleplaying itself could use either pregen or created.

However, if all a friend did was play pregens and never made up his own character, I assume you wouldn't say "Gee, you're kinda missing out, playing a pregen is fun but making your character is fun, too."  Of course you would, because the without chargen you can have the experience of roleplaying, but not the complete experience of roleplaying.

Here's the that part that apparently your lack of...whatever didn't grant you the comprehesion for:

If you can roleplay with pregens, then obviously you can play a game with pregens.  However, a game that only includes pregens is not a complete game. (Note the word complete.)

As I said before, you can argue that Boxed Set + PDF gives a complete experience, but you cannot argue that the Boxed Set alone is a complete roleplaying game.  But, as I pointed out, it's not meant to be.  I can run modules with it, sure.  I can roleplay with it, sure.  A complete roleplaying game, however, it is not.

Basic will be a complete RPG.  It will not be the complete 5e experience, for that you will need all the 5e books.  However, the plan is that not everyone wants the complete 5e experience, so Basic will be a complete game, something that the Starter Box is not.

My points merely confirm everything that Mearls has said along with WotC release descriptions.  Different products targeting different aspects of the market, attempting to serve all D&D fans no matter the edition, what Mearls has been saying they could do since day 1.

Quote from: Marleycat;754479Sounds about right.

There we go.  Agreement on fact, what a breath of fresh air for this thread.  :hatsoff:

Quote from: Marleycat;754479At least in general terms without pendantry

You mean Pedantry. :D

Quote from: CRKrueger;754518You mean Pedantry. :D

Why yes I do. :D

Quote from: CRKrueger;754517Since you read the second point, it's weird you missed the first part, where I said roleplaying itself could use either pregen or created.

No, I didn't miss it.  But the first was about roleplaying in general, while the second point I bolded is talking about the game.  Let me try to break it down for you.  Lucky for you, there's no basic math involved this time:

"The experience of a roleplaying game, however, needs to include both to be complete."

Since there are roleplaying games out there that do not have character generation, this statement is objectively false.  You may want a game with character generation and no pregens, but you don't need it.  And one certainly isn't required to make their own character in order to experience what a role playing game is.

QuoteHowever, if all a friend did was play pregens and never made up his own character, I assume you wouldn't say "Gee, you're kinda missing out, playing a pregen is fun but making your character is fun, too."  Of course you would, because the without chargen you can have the experience of roleplaying, but not the complete experience of roleplaying.

No I wouldn't, because if that player didn't want to make their own PCs, and were happy playing pregens, who am I to say they're not playing the game the "right way".  That reeks of one-true-wayism.  And quite literally, they are still playing an RPG and getting that experience.  Frankly, telling someone that unless they generate their own character, they aren't experiencing the complete experience of an rpg is elitist bullshit.  Playing the game is what matters and gives that experience, not how many PCs they create.

QuoteIf you can roleplay with pregens, then obviously you can play a game with pregens.  However, a game that only includes pregens is not a complete game. (Note the word complete.)
.

This is a really stupid position to argue for, because it's so blatantly incorrect.  In order to play the game, as a role-playing game is designed to be, you don't need chargen.  There is nothing in the starter box that is preventing people from playing the game.  That's essentially what you're arguing.  People absolutely can take that starter box and play a complete game of D&D.

Now, I suspect that you're going to say it's not a "complete" game without chargen, because you just did.  Let me explain why that's flawed.  As I mentioned, nothing in the definition of an RPG says you can't play it without chargen.  That's game prep, not actual game play.  There is a significant difference.  This is also reinforced by games out there that are RPGs where you don't have customized chargen, and yet strangely, people play them.

Secondly, this statement is only a statement of your personal opinion, and therefore cannot be made as a blanket objective statement like you're making it out to be.  For example, one could also argue that you're not playing a "complete" rpg without mass combat rules.  Or Wilderness exploration rules.  Or castle construction rules.  Or literally any other set of rules that someone may feel is really important to their RPG experience.  It seems your position is one that not having those rules means the game is not "complete" right, because they exist in some other supplement?  That's the logic you're using.  Anything not in the core game means it's not complete.  And that's really a silly argument to try to make.


The really bizarro thing about this whole conversation is that we've had TONS of discussions about how your PC is defined by what you do in the game, and not what you happen to roll or what class you chose (chargen), and it seems that some of the most adamant proponents of that old school argument have flipped the script 100% just so they could bitch about the starter boxed set.

I can only assume that you feel B/X is not a complete game.  Otherwise, tell me the difference between someone saying "I want to play a fighter" and someone saying "here is a fighter to play"?  In Basic, there are no class differences at all between the two.  The only difference is random ability rolls.  I hope you won't argue that not rolling for your own stats means you aren't playing the game, because that infers that people who play with point buy or array aren't playing the game as well.

Now do you see why I qualified my agreement with the creveats of general terms and no PEDENTRY CRKrueger?

Because in truth both you and Sacrosanct are correct but it's completely dependant on what and level of definition you're using and someone like me (target audience for 5e) is using or cares about. You guys following me yet?:)

Sacrosanct he literally agrees with our position you need to chill.

The only bizarro thing is you not comprehending that rolling 3d6 in order, picking fighter, rolling hit points and gold and picking equipment is chargen.  It's bizarro because you didn't disagree with the point that chargen is not charop, but yet here you are now blathering the same fallacy that full-blown 3.5 charop is the definition of chargen, which it clearly isn't.

The even more bizarro thing is that if you actually bothered to read my posts instead of "whargarble", you'd find that I've said it's a pretty bold and interesting plan WotC has decided on.

Bold as it is, no amount of frothing denial on your part is ever going to make calling the Starter Box a complete RPG sound like anything other then raving lunacy from a fanatic.  The Starter Box isn't meant to be a complete RPG, that's Basic's job.  Basic fixes all things, especially if they POD it.  It's unfortunate that you don't even realize that Basic itself vaporized all criticisms against the Starter Set and you think you have to continue making yourself look like an absolute idiot to defend it.

The increasing tedium is only offset by the growing humor that you think you're actually correct (unlikely) or that you're actually putting up any form of logical defense, both of which are absolutely hilarious.

Quote from: Marleycat;754535Now do you see why I qualified my agreement with the creveats of general terms and no PEDENTRY CKrueger?

Are you accusing Sacrosanct of Pedantry also in his response?  I'm not responsible for his logorrhea.

Are you suggesting that by quadrupling down on the fallacies that charop equals chargen or that roleplaying a pregen is the complete roleplaying game experience that he's somehow invalidated my points?  Well, sorry, but he hasn't.

He's foaming against strawmen he's created by attacking two of my points, not realizing in his ignorance or rage that the other four points invalidated his arguments before he began typing.

There are no logic traps in what I wrote, simple facts.  Perhaps this is easier?

• If the Starter Box was a complete RPG, there would be no need for the pregen pdf.
• If the Starter Box plus pregen was meant to be the core of 5e, there would be no need for Basic.
• If Basic was the complete 5e experience, there would be no need for the 3 hardbound books.

From the very beginning, Mearls has wanted to target different types of players, now they're doing do with a very diverse spread of products designed to get as many gamers under the D&D umbrella as possible.  As I said, a bold plan.  However, in addressing specific markets with different products, that does in fact mean different products are different, right?

The Starter Box is a focused experience, meant to be pick up and play, BAM!

As a result, it is by design meant to be incomplete, the conscious decision was to remove chargen to an optional pdf.  Whatever the reason, it was done.

So by spending pages of posts arguing over whether chargen is a necessary component of the RPG experience, the correct answer would have been...

"Yeah genius, the Starter Set doesn't contain chargen, that's the fucking point of the damn thing, to grab PCs and go."  

However, making that argument takes someone who is capable of accepting criticism for something they like or capable of saying they were wrong or maybe went off the deep end a bit.

Hypothetical:
A new RPG comes out... it has no chargen at all. Just pregens. There are no other books planned, ever (though they will release packs of new pregens occasionally).
You can only play it with pregens unless you want to backwards engineer how the writers made the pregens... make up homerules.
All else being good... would this bother you?
Would you argue with people who were bothered by it?
Would you consider it a 'complete' RPG?

Of course... a couple of you have already owned up to not liking chargen anyway... but for the others?

EDIT: No, I am not equating this not-real game to 5e or it's 'Starter'

No I was only accusing Sacrosanct of pedantry. I was capitalizing and bolding the word as a snark to you. A guy I consider a friend and usually agree with.

Quote from: Simlasa;754544A new RPG comes out... it has no chargen at all. Just pregens. There are no other books planned, ever (though they will release packs of new pregens occasionally). You can only play it with pregens unless you want to backwards engineer how the writers made the pregens... make up homerules.
All else being good... would this bother you?
Would you consider it a 'complete' RPG?

Of course... a couple of you have already owned up to not liking chargen anyway... but for the others?

Just so we get the inevitable strawman out of the way, saying that "This isn't the same because the Starter Set has a pdf." isn't an invalidation of his question, it's an evasion through logical fallacy. :D

Quote from: Marleycat;754545No I was only accusing Sacrosanct of pedantry. I was capitalizing and bolding the word as a snark to you. A guy I consider a friend and usually agree with.

Ok then, my apologies, Sacrosanct has me questioning people's sanity.  Unlike him, I'm capable of admitting I went off the deep end a bit in response to you, however, as a response, my points are valid.

Quote from: Simlasa;754544A new RPG comes out... it has no chargen at all. Just pregens. There are no other books planned, ever (though they will release packs of new pregens occasionally). You can only play it with pregens unless you want to backwards engineer how the writers made the pregens... make up homerules.
All else being good... would this bother you?
Would you consider it a 'complete' RPG?

Of course... a couple of you have already owned up to not liking chargen anyway... but for the others?

Yes. That isn't a RPG under THOSE parameters when I filter them through MY parameters of what is a RPG. At some realistic point it must have chargen whether that be array, lifepath, dice rolling, point buy, Shadowrun or Onyx Path modified point buy, whatever or some mix of any those it has to have it to be a full RPG.

Quote from: CRKrueger;754548Ok then, my apologies, Sacrosanct has me questioning people's sanity.  Unlike him, I'm capable of admitting I went off the deep end a bit in response to you, however, as a response, my points are valid.

It's fine I actually understood your post upthread and your correction of my misspelled word. So I was jabbing you for it, because you didn't embarrass me you just were jabbing me with humor about it. That's what friends do right?

What if the pregens include all possible variations between race and class, and used standardized ability score arrays?

Quote from: Mistwell;754551What if the pregens include all possible variations between race and class, and used standardized ability score arrays?

If you had access to an array or three then you have character generation and at the least the parameters are totally different and at the most? I really don't know. Except the argument would have to be different.

Quote from: CRKrueger;754536The only bizarro thing is you not comprehending that rolling 3d6 in order, picking fighter, rolling hit points and gold and picking equipment is chargen.  It's bizarro because you didn't disagree with the point that chargen is not charop, but yet here you are now blathering the same fallacy that full-blown 3.5 charop is the definition of chargen, which it clearly isn't..

Where have I even remotely implied that 3.5 charop is the definition of chargen?  Anything even close?  For someone who likes to keep throwing around that other people are using fallacies...

(http://guychurch.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/youkeepusingthatword.jpg)

Because you are literally using a fallacy in teh same sentence you're accusing others of.  Truly strange...

But anyway, clearly you didn't understand what I was getting at in my previous post.  Let's address this:

QuoteThe only bizarro thing is you not comprehending that rolling 3d6 in order, picking fighter, rolling hit points and gold and picking equipment is chargen.

Is just picking a fighter considered chargen?  Based on your earlier responses, I'm guessing 'no' because that is the exact same thing one does with a pregen.  And if that's the case, then by that same logic you're using, anyone who uses an array, starts with max hp, and a predetermined adventurer's kit is not creating their own character because they are literally making the same number of choices as the person next to him is when he chooses the fighter pregen.

So would you be so kind to clarify your position?

Quote from: Simlasa;754544Hypothetical:
A new RPG comes out... it has no chargen at all. Just pregens. There are no other books planned, ever (though they will release packs of new pregens occasionally).
You can only play it with pregens unless you want to backwards engineer how the writers made the pregens... make up homerules.
All else being good... would this bother you?
Would you argue with people who were bothered by it?
Would you consider it a 'complete' RPG?

Of course... a couple of you have already owned up to not liking chargen anyway... but for the others?

EDIT: No, I am not equating this not-real game to 5e or it's 'Starter'

Yes it might be a complete RPG.
Take the example I quoted way back where you have a Marvel superhero game and you have to play a marvel hero. Big book of pregens and more released over time.

This is a complete RPG.

It might not be a great RPG and I can see lots of people complaining but its a complete RPG.

I also refer you to what the aim of the "Starter Set" is which is not a complete game as that is the Basic set which is free.

Quote from: Marleycat;754553If you had access to an array or three then you have character generation and at the least the parameters are totally different and at the most? I really don't know. Except the argument would have to be different.

No I am talking about a hypothetical game that always uses the same array.  So all healers use the same spread of ability scores (the Healer array), all warriors the same (Warrior array), etc.. So the game includes say 4 races and 4 classes, and comes with all 16 variations of those (name is blank, description is blank, but race and class and ability scores and fixed hit points and fixed saves), and the array is the same based on the class (modified by the race), so you're not choosing ability scores nor rolling for them.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;754559So would you be so kind to clarify your position?

Did anyone ever tell you you're nowhere near as clever as you think you are, especially when you think you're setting a "gotcha" trap a 2 year old could see through?

For your point to be true then the sum total of 5e chargen must be as you describe.  If there is no allocation of attributes, but ONLY a mandatory array, AND there is no variance in hps, all are max AND there is no choice of using anything OTHER THAN your predetermined adventuring kit there being NO choice in the matter, then of course picking a pregen amounts to the same thing.

Is your contention that the 48 page pdf contains only such restrained options?   Please be stupid enough to say yes.

Quote from: Marleycat;754549Yes. That isn't a RPG under THOSE parameters when I filter them through MY parameters of what is a RPG. At some realistic point it must have chargen whether that be array, lifepath, dice rolling, point buy, Shadowrun or Onyx Path modified point buy, whatever or some mix of any those it has to have it to be a full RPG.

See what happens when you both like 5e, and are sane, Sacrosanct?

Quote from: Marleycat;754550It's fine I actually understood your post upthread and your correction of my misspelled word. So I was jabbing you for it, because you didn't embarrass me you just were jabbing me with humor about it. That's what friends do right?

Yeah, I know, as I said, 5acrosanct has me questioning the nature of the human mind, sorry.

Quote from: Mistwell;754561No I am talking about a hypothetical game that always uses the same array.  So all healers use the same spread of ability scores (the Healer array), all warriors the same (Warrior array), etc.. So the game includes say 4 races and 4 classes, and comes with all 16 variations of those (name is blank, description is blank, but race and class and ability scores and fixed hit points and fixed saves), and the array is the same based on the class (modified by the race), so you're not choosing ability scores nor rolling for them.

We know that this is NOT going to be the case with 5e, and has not been the case for really any other RPG in existence, so what's the point?  It's not to try and somehow redefine the Starter Set as a complete RPG, because you understand it's whole point is not to be a complete RPG.

In answer to your question though, it's more like Warhammer Quest.

Quote from: jibbajibba;754560Yes it might be a complete RPG.
Take the example I quoted way back where you have a Marvel superhero game and you have to play a marvel hero. Big book of pregens and more released over time.

This is a complete RPG.

It might not be a great RPG and I can see lots of people complaining but its a complete RPG.

I also refer you to what the aim of the "Starter Set" is which is not a complete game as that is the Basic set which is free.

A lot of people accused Marvel Heroic of being this because the game didn't have a "point based" style chargen. It was just "write down what you think the character you imagine in your head would have and get your GM to approve it". Honestly that worked pretty well though.

But honestly, you could totally play the game only ever using pregens and not really lose anything at all, it just depends on what you WANT to do.

Quote from: Mistwell;754561No I am talking about a hypothetical game that always uses the same array.  So all healers use the same spread of ability scores (the Healer array), all warriors the same (Warrior array), etc.. So the game includes say 4 races and 4 classes, and comes with all 16 variations of those (name is blank, description is blank, but race and class and ability scores and fixed hit points and fixed saves), and the array is the same based on the class (modified by the race), so you're not choosing ability scores nor rolling for them.

That's a pregen in my book. You can roleplay it and play in a RPG with it but it's not the full deal. You need to let ME roll for you and then it's the full monty. I'll even do Dark Sun methods and watch you cry when you see what stats are possible without array or point buy. Interesting though I am awesome with lifepath, point buy, array and scheme and such mixes.:)

Warhammer, Onyx Path, Neliphim, Kult, GURPS, Shadowrun, Rolemaster, any damn game I don't have to roll dice to generate a character wholesale are my bitch.:)

Quote from: CRKrueger;754563Did anyone ever tell you you're nowhere near as clever as you think you are, especially when you think you're setting a "gotcha" trap a 2 year old could see through?

For your point to be true then the sum total of 5e chargen must be as you describe.  If there is no allocation of attributes, but ONLY a mandatory array, AND there is no variance in hps, all are max AND there is no choice of using anything OTHER THAN your predetermined adventuring kit there being NO choice in the matter, then of course picking a pregen amounts to the same thing.

Is your contention that the 48 page pdf contains only such restrained options?   Please be stupid enough to say yes.

this is no gotcha.  It's a simple question.  I'm only going by what you actually said.  You said that in order to get a complete RPG experience, you have to have chargen, and that an RPG without chargen is not complete.  These are general statements about rpgs.  So I'm asking you, what do you consider chargen?

so far all you've done is accuse others of using fallacies while being extremely liberal in their use yourself.  And you don't have a clue what my "point" is, because your retort here has nothing to do with what I actually said

Quote from: CRKrueger;754565Yeah, I know, as I said, 5acrosanct has me questioning the nature of the human mind, sorry.

5acrosanct just needs to go get laid more often.

Ok, sure I'll bite.  I'll pretend for a minute that no matter what I write you won't attempt to turn a word or sub phrase into an "AHA!"  Why not, I enjoy  roleplaying in fantasy games, so I can pretend the most ludicrous and unlikely situations.

Simply speaking, Character Generation has to have a means of generating characters, not selecting one that has been pre-generated.  What meets the threshold of generation?  Does every single aspect of the character, including history, backstory, complexion and comparative testicle height need to be determined? No.  However, here are some obvious examples of Chargen.

WFRP1 - Choose or roll race, Roll Profile, determine racial abilities, determine age, choose alignment, determine fate, determine career, determine extra skills, determine mandatory skills, determine equipment, choose free advance.

DCC - Roll ability scores, determine 0-level occupation, choose an alignment, purchase equipment, see if you survive to first level.

Here's a game that doesn't have CharGen.

Warhammer Quest - Choose Pregen Card.  Now some character templates in WHQ included random elements such as pick from a deck for spells.  Having a randomizer for equipment, or even only for wounds, is not chargen.

I really can't wait for the "not-springing" of the trap.

Quote from: jeff37923;7545715acrosanct just needs to go get laid more often.

Now that's just MEAN. It might not even be factual sir.:)
.

I know this is just a personal anecdote but I found that even when I was running 1st or 2nd ed games for new players it was eaiser to just hand them a pregen and let them worry about filling out name and gender. I had plenty of people whom I was teaching the game to lose interest right away at character creation. It just got worse with 3rd ed and while I never dm'd 4th ed I remember practically giving up when I first tried to build a character and I'm one of those people that actually liked making characters just for fun.

That said, had I been making the starter set, I probably would have included simple chargen in a sidebar in the rule book. Probably described it as wanting to customize a pregen character so that some of the basics of chargen are introduced at least. It could even be something like "Pick archetype, roll 4d6 discard lowest, select skills, select gear, go." and be more limited than even basic chargen, so as to ease players who do get discouraged by that part of the game into it easier.

Quote from: Bionicspacejellyfish;754610I know this is just a personal anecdote but I found that even when I was running 1st or 2nd ed games for new players it was eaiser to just hand them a pregen and let them worry about filling out name and gender. I had plenty of people whom I was teaching the game to lose interest right away at character creation. It just got worse with 3rd ed and while I never dm'd 4th ed I remember practically giving up when I first tried to build a character and I'm one of those people that actually liked making characters just for fun.

That said, had I been making the starter set, I probably would have included simple chargen in a sidebar in the rule book. Probably described it as wanting to customize a pregen character so that some of the basics of chargen are introduced at least. It could even be something like "Pick archetype, roll 4d6 discard lowest, select skills, select gear, go." and be more limited than even basic chargen, so as to ease players who do get discouraged by that part of the game into it easier.

I would have included a player book 50 pages with chargen etc and I would have sold it separate to a starter set and included it to encourage all the players to buy it.
Having said that WotC have quite undermined that position by giving said book away for free.

Your reduced character generation I fears falls between two schools. The experienced players don't need rules so light so to them its wasted copy. The new players, the one the start set is aimed to bring in, need a fully fleshed out character generation guide. The won't be able to make head nor tail of "Pick archetype, roll 4d6 discard lowest, select skills, select gear, go." They may not even know what 4d6 is after all.

Quote from: jibbajibba;754614Your reduced character generation I fears falls between two schools. The experienced players don't need rules so light so to them its wasted copy. The new players, the one the start set is aimed to bring in, need a fully fleshed out character generation guide.

You are full of more shit than a Christmas turkey.

Quote from: jibbajibba;754614The won't be able to make head nor tail of "Pick archetype, roll 4d6 discard lowest, select skills, select gear, go." They may not even know what 4d6 is after all.

Over 40 years of history of the game proves you wrong.

People, start using your brains. Looking at the Holmes version of Basic D&D, character generation takes up 13 pages and could be reduced to 12 pages with some judicious editing (Why are the Wandering Monster tables in chargen?). That page count includes classes, stats, equipment, saves, attack rolls, and spells - so it could probably be reduced even further.

Now, jibba, are you saying that between 1974 and 2014, humanity just got incredibly less intelligent? So much so that people cannot read and comprehend instructions? Because if so, role-playing games as a hobby are doomed.

Quote from: jeff37923;754626You are full of more shit than a Christmas turkey.



Over 40 years of history of the game proves you wrong.

People, start using your brains. Looking at the Moldvay version of Basic D&D, character generation takes up 13 pages and could be reduced to 12 pages with some judicious editing (Why are the Wandering Monster tables in chargen?). That page count includes classes, stats, equipment, saves, attack rolls, and spells - so it could probably be reduced even further.

Now, jibba, are you saying that between 1974 and 2014, humanity just got incredibly less intelligent? So much so that people cannot read and comprehend instructions? Because if so, role-playing games as a hobby are doomed.

Um..... no I am saying putting a character generation system in a Side bar and basically summing the whole deal up in a paragraph and a table of backgrounds is too light weight for a bunch of kids that have never played an RPG.
You did read the post I was referencing right the one that stated ...

Quote...had I been making the starter set, I probably would have included simple chargen in a sidebar in the rule book. Probably described it as wanting to customize a pregen character so that some of the basics of chargen are introduced at least. It could even be something like "Pick archetype, roll 4d6 discard lowest, select skills, select gear, go." and be more limited than even basic chargen, so as to ease players who do get discouraged by that part of the game into it easier.

Does that sound like a suggestion that they included a 13 or 14 page character generation system?

As I stated I would have included a 50 page Players book with char gen, spells, etc etc I would have upped the price of the start set to $29:99 and I would have sold the player book along side at $9:99 just for players.
However, WotC have bypassed the need for that by giving a full game away for free.
The point is the Starter Set is not trying to replicate Menzer or Moldvay it's doing something new something different. It's creating an introductory set that sits along side the full basic game (which you can get for free).

Quote from: jibbajibba;754628Um..... no I am saying putting a character generation system in a Side bar and basically summing the whole deal up in a paragraph and a table of backgrounds is too light weight for a bunch of kids that have never played an RPG.
You did read the post I was referencing right the one that stated ...

I did. Your problem was that you assumed a single sidebar.  Why not sidebars on each relevant page? Plenty of space then.

Quote from: CRKrueger;754566We know that this is NOT going to be the case with 5e, and has not been the case for really any other RPG in existence, so what's the point?  It's not to try and somehow redefine the Starter Set as a complete RPG, because you understand it's whole point is not to be a complete RPG.

In answer to your question though, it's more like Warhammer Quest.

I didn't say or imply it's 5e.  We're talking about what the fine lines are between "a full game" and "not a full game".  Each distinction leads to the next set of questions, and eventually that may help explain people's opinions regarding 5e.  This is often how discourse works. If you don't want to talk about it, nobody is twisting your arm to do so.  But stop bitching that people are talking about things you don't want to talk about.

Quote from: Marleycat;754568That's a pregen in my book.

So if I can name an RPG that does that, though obviously I changed what the components are (they may not be named class and race and hit points and saves and ability scores, for example), then you would say it's not an RPG? Is that because you don't roll for things, and it's pre-assigned based on which of 16 things you choose?

Quote from: CRKrueger;754574Ok, sure I'll bite.  I'll pretend for a minute that no matter what I write you won't attempt to turn a word or sub phrase into an "AHA!"  Why not, I enjoy  roleplaying in fantasy games, so I can pretend the most ludicrous and unlikely situations.

Simply speaking, Character Generation has to have a means of generating characters, not selecting one that has been pre-generated.  What meets the threshold of generation?  Does every single aspect of the character, including history, backstory, complexion and comparative testicle height need to be determined? No.  However, here are some obvious examples of Chargen.

WFRP1 - Choose or roll race, Roll Profile, determine racial abilities, determine age, choose alignment, determine fate, determine career, determine extra skills, determine mandatory skills, determine equipment, choose free advance.

DCC - Roll ability scores, determine 0-level occupation, choose an alignment, purchase equipment, see if you survive to first level.

Here's a game that doesn't have CharGen.

Warhammer Quest - Choose Pregen Card.  Now some character templates in WHQ included random elements such as pick from a deck for spells.  Having a randomizer for equipment, or even only for wounds, is not chargen.

I really can't wait for the "not-springing" of the trap.

What I was getting at, was trying to figure out where you draw the line.  You said rolling for hp, ability scores, money, and buying equipment were all part of chargen.  Ok, but are they required parts of chargen?

Is a player who chooses an array, starts with max hp, and chooses a pre-determined equipment load out (all things that players did long before 3e came out by the way) doing chargen in your mind?  In Basic, there is no race&class combo choices.  One dwarf is mechanically identical to another.  If someone who uses an array, max hp, and predetermined equipment load out is still doing chargen when they choose to be a dwarf, I'm trying to figure out why they are getting the "full experience" of the game compared to someone who just chooses a pre-made dwarf, who isn't getting that experience, and according to Jeff, is defeating the entire purpose of the game.  On the character sheet, there's no real difference between the two.  And there certainly isn't anything happening during actual game play that differentiates the two.  

So I'd like to have you explain why in that scenario, one person is not playing the RPG experience and the other is.

Quote from: Marleycat;754577Now that's just MEAN. It might not even be factual sir.:)
.

It's not.  My wife is gorgeous and I have a plenty active sex life.  It just goes to show what sort of maturity we're dealing with here, if they've devolved into those sort of arguments.

Quote from: Mistwell;754632So if I can name an RPG that does that, though obviously I changed what the components are (they may not be named class and race and hit points and saves and ability scores, for example), then you would say it's not an RPG? Is that because you don't roll for things, and it's pre-assigned based on which of 16 things you choose?

Don't while knight me. It's not a binary situation for me. But a pregen that you can switch only the numbers you're given for that pregen is still a pregen. For myself that isn't a factor in can you play the game fully. But it is in fact not the full experience in  that you don't have every option. The key is unlike what some are trying to argue is that you need every option for a full RPG you don't. It's pedantic frippery and not relevant to the discussion.

Quote from: Mistwell;754632So if I can name an RPG that does that, though obviously I changed what the components are (they may not be named class and race and hit points and saves and ability scores, for example), then you would say it's not an RPG? Is that because you don't roll for things, and it's pre-assigned based on which of 16 things you choose?

It's like saying Final Fantasy for the Super NES isn't a video game RPG, but Eye of the Beholder is, based solely on the fact that you can spend time creating a custom party in EotB and you can't in FF.

Quote from: jeff37923;754626Now, jibba, are you saying that between 1974 and 2014, humanity just got incredibly less intelligent? So much so that people cannot read and comprehend instructions? Because if so, role-playing games as a hobby are doomed.

Check this out - http://www.enworld.org/forum/content.php?1590-What-is-Happening-to-Tabletop-Roleplaying-Games

QuoteWhat has changed now is that a game like Car Wars can work very well if I'm not getting a new constant stream of games. Because I have all this time wherer I want to be gaming but I can't play a game, so I'll do all the stuff that exists around the game. But now thanks to, like, this phone... [something] smartphones, tablets, Steam, uh, XBox Live, PSN, I can buy games whenever I want.

QuoteAnd so in a lot of ways with D&D, and you know Ryan has the slide, that's really not how we see it at all because for me that boxing match, it isn't D&D against any tabletop roleplaying game, it's D&D versus the entire changing face of entertainment, of how a tabletop roleplaying game... that's the best thing you can do with your friends.

Not 'intelligent' but 'bothered to commit', and yes, yes that probably has changed since 1974, for the reasons in the article.

And even if you didn't agree that kids in 1974 looked at gaming differently than the digital natives of today do, would you still fault Wizards for believing it and trying something new?

Quote from: jeff37923;754629I did. Your problem was that you assumed a single sidebar.  Why not sidebars on each relevant page? Plenty of space then.

I merely assumed that because that was what was the 6million dollar cnidaria said in his post.
You may have assumed that he meant add a sidebar to every page but those were not the actual words he wrote down which is what I was referring to.

As an aside you do realize that adding a lot of sidebars to a book does take up room don't you. Its not like the sidebars some how occupy an alternate dimension or would be published in microdot format.... If you put 12 pages of chargen into sidebars they will take up about ....12 pages of space and be bloody difficult to read.

Just sayin....

Quote from: Marleycat;754634Don't while knight me

I don't have any idea what you mean by this.  Even if it was a typo, I have no idea how white knighting would apply to this conversation either.  I am just trying to drill down on what people think is the difference between a complete RPG, and not a complete RPG.  I really do not care if you don't think the Starter Set is a complete RPG or not, i am purely curious why people think one way or the other.

QuoteIt's not a binary situation for me. But a pregen that you can switch only the numbers you're given for that pregen is still a pregen. For myself that isn't a factor in can you play the game fully. But it is in fact not the full experience in  that you don't have every option. The key is unlike what some are trying to argue is that you need every option for a full RPG you don't. It's pedantic frippery and not relevant to the discussion.

OK fair nuff.

Quote from: mcbobbo;754637Not 'intelligent' but 'bothered to commit', and yes, yes that probably has changed since 1974, for the reasons in the article.

I certainly see that with some kids I know. No way could I get them to play a TTRPG... not only don't they like to read, they don't even do well with face to face conversations. They live on videogames and sugar.
The kids I know that like to read though... who sit around doing lego animations... who build stuff and draw stuff and model stuff with clay... much better audiences for TTRPGs it seems.
Same as it ever was? Probably not. But even something as simple as a pre-gen isn't fast/explosive enough for the first kid. The second kid really is going to want to make up something out of his head... though he'd probably happily settle for a pre-gen if there was one he liked.
That article suggests the goal is to have the D&D brand compete in the general entertainment market... but I don't see how TTRPGs are ever going to be able to go along on that ride... unless they just become video games.
OK, so the hobby is dead... yay for us!

Quote from: Simlasa;754649I certainly see that with some kids I know. No way could I get them to play a TTRPG... not only don't they like to read, they don't even do well with face to face conversations. They live on videogames and sugar.

I find that people sell kids these days incredibly short. Both literacy and reading for fun have been shown to be WAY up in kids and young adults for a while now. It turns out that if you make young adult fiction that isn't garbage, kids get interested.

http://libraries.pewinternet.org/2013/06/25/younger-americans-library-services/

Yep, my daughter reads more than I ever did when I was her age. The hottest books among boys in my elementary school were Hardy Boys mysteries.

Quote from: Emperor Norton;754654I find that people sell kids these days incredibly short. Both literacy and reading for fun have been shown to be WAY up in kids and young adults for a while now. It turns out that if you make young adult fiction that isn't garbage, kids get interested.

That would be kid number 2 in my anecdote.
People have ALWAYS whined about their younger generations. I'm just saying there are some kids who are might be the audience for TTRPGs... and there are those who won't. The ones who are glued to their video games and tablets and such seem like a much harder draw... so why try for them, by going after the videogame market, when there ARE still plenty of kids interested in reading and creative endeavors?
Push the CREATIVE aspects of RPGs... rather than pushing them to be more instantly gratifying, because there are too many other/better/faster things vying for the instant gratification dollar.

Quote from: mcbobbo;754637Check this out - http://www.enworld.org/forum/content.php?1590-What-is-Happening-to-Tabletop-Roleplaying-Games





Not 'intelligent' but 'bothered to commit', and yes, yes that probably has changed since 1974, for the reasons in the article.

And even if you didn't agree that kids in 1974 looked at gaming differently than the digital natives of today do, would you still fault Wizards for believing it and trying something new?

Except this isn't something new.

This is the same shit Wizards have been doing for a decade now with their intro material. The same thing dozens of other companies have tried too.

Even the free Basic PDF isn't new. Stuart's smug joke in the other thread was right.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;754633It's not.  My wife is gorgeous and I have a plenty active sex life.  It just goes to show what sort of maturity we're dealing with here, if they've devolved into those sort of arguments.

Dude, argueing logically with you is pointless. I saw that when you made the idiot binary statement that you either like pre-gens or you are a denner.

Quote from: mcbobbo;754637Not 'intelligent' but 'bothered to commit', and yes, yes that probably has changed since 1974, for the reasons in the article.

And even if you didn't agree that kids in 1974 looked at gaming differently than the digital natives of today do, would you still fault Wizards for believing it and trying something new?

OK, that arguement I'll buy. It makes a Hell of a lot more sense than jibba's claim that kids today can't follow instructions and wouldn't now what dice were.

Quote from: jeff37923;754678Dude, argueing logically with you is pointless. I saw that when you made the idiot binary statement that you either like pre-gens or you are a denner.

where?  Quote me saying that, or shut the hell up already, you delusional whiner

More and more of the same...

Why does the past matter? Because the old way is the best way? In your opinion, but NOT in mine.

Character creation is not the ONLY thing. It's not the crown on the cake. It's an important part of the game, certainly, but not the MOST important. It doesn't need to be in a Starter Game. People CAN pick it up later, learn it later, and many of us (experienced mind you, not newbie) GMs agree with the sentiment.

You're just making the same tired arguments over and over.

Saying something 1000 fucking times doesn't make it so.

Your 1000 posts haven't changed our minds.

We hear you. We just think your wrong. Get over it.

This new war between the "Creating it Firsts" versus the "Playing it Firsts" has obviously come to an end. And the "Playing it Firsts" have won.

NOTHING you say is going to CHANGE ANYTHING. NOTHING. It's over. The lot has been cast. The dice have been rolled. So has it been decided!

• One Starter Set with pregens and no character creation
• One Basic Game with basic stuff including character creation
• A "pick and choose" what you will hardcover D&D line with as much or as little options as your heart desires.

We have chiseled your whiny nonsense into the halls of Grognardia where it will sit for all time to glare down upon the opposite wall...  and forgotten. For now into eternity the newbies will be learning D&D OUR WAY. The product will be as WE WANTED IT. You will be forgotten. Your lame words falling on nothingness as we stroll through the halls playing OUR game. Hailed as champions of a new era, bringing the joys of D&D to a world hungry for adventure and imagination!

Lay down your old ways. Pack up your old games. Display your dusty boxes and dog-eared tombs before us. And pay homage. And swear fealty to the new order!! If you cannot bear to surrender in your solemn defeat, then we shall cast you out to the RPG Wastelands, where you can practice your heresy outside the innocent hearing of the new ones we bring into the fold.

As the "Creating it Firsts" drudge out of our hallowed halls, heads hanging low, we will not mourn you. As you attempt to eek out your miserable existence in the RPG wastelands we will bid you no sorrow. For you looked up at the righteous glory of the 5th, and did not see the truth. We bid you one last farewell. Goodnight angry old men.

The End.

Trentin - Loyal champion of the Playing it Firsts. Conqueror of Grogtards.

tl:dr - We win. D&D is coming out the way we wanted it. You'll be forgotten. Nannie Nannie Boo Boo.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;754682where?  Quote me saying that, or shut the hell up already, you delusional whiner

Quote from: Sacrosanct;752691*Edit*  Because your post seems to strongly imply that the purpose of the game is to create your own characters.  You know do does think char gen is the purpose of the game?  Denners.  Is that the side you want to align with?

There you go.

Quote from: trechriron;754684More and more of the same...

Why does the past matter? Because the old way is the best way? In your opinion, but NOT in mine.

Character creation is not the ONLY thing. It's not the crown on the cake. It's an important part of the game, certainly, but not the MOST important. It doesn't need to be in a Starter Game. People CAN pick it up later, learn it later, and many of us (experienced mind you, not newbie) GMs agree with the sentiment.

You're just making the same tired arguments over and over.

Saying something 1000 fucking times doesn't make it so.

Your 1000 posts haven't changed our minds.

We hear you. We just think your wrong. Get over it.

This new war between the "Creating it Firsts" versus the "Playing it Firsts" has obviously come to an end. And the "Playing it Firsts" have won.

NOTHING you say is going to CHANGE ANYTHING. NOTHING. It's over. The lot has been cast. The dice have been rolled. So has it been decided!

• One Starter Set with pregens and no character creation
• One Basic Game with basic stuff including character creation
• A "pick and choose" what you will hardcover D&D line with as much or as little options as your heart desires.

We have chiseled your whiny nonsense into the halls of Grognardia where it will sit for all time to glare down upon the opposite wall...  and forgotten. For now into eternity the newbies will be learning D&D OUR WAY. The product will be as WE WANTED IT. You will be forgotten. Your lame words falling on nothingness as we stroll through the halls playing OUR game. Hailed as champions of a new era, bringing the joys of D&D to a world hungry for adventure and imagination!

Lay down your old ways. Pack up your old games. Display your dusty boxes and dog-eared tombs before us. And pay homage. And swear fealty to the new order!! If you cannot bear to surrender in your solemn defeat, then we shall cast you out to the RPG Wastelands, where you can practice your heresy outside the innocent hearing of the new ones we bring into the fold.

As the "Creating it Firsts" drudge out of our hallowed halls, heads hanging low, we will not mourn you. As you attempt to eek out your miserable existence in the RPG wastelands we will bid you no sorrow. For you looked up at the righteous glory of the 5th, and did not see the truth. We bid you one last farewell. Goodnight angry old men.

The End.

Trentin - Loyal champion of the Playing it Firsts. Conqueror of Grogtards.

tl:dr - We win. D&D is coming out the way we wanted it. You'll be forgotten. Nannie Nannie Boo Boo.

Amusing, didn't the 4E fans crow like this while that version was being rolled out?

See, I'm not just talking about D&D Next. Wizbros will do whatever they want with the game and the audience has no real input. I've been talking about RPGs in general for awhile now.

Quote from: trechriron;754684tl:dr - We win. D&D is coming out the way we wanted it. You'll be forgotten. Nannie Nannie Boo Boo.

Yes, but 5e will be forgotten, too.

Quote from: jeff37923;754685There you go.

begs the question: do you speak English?  This should be obvious to anyone with basic reading comprehension skills, but that quote of mine in no way means what you said it means.  Nothing in my quote even implies "You either like pregens or you must be a denner". It means what I said.  That saying that the entire purpose of the game is chargen is what the Denners are known for saying.

I have to assume at this point you either have some serious mental deficiencies, are impaired heavily by something, or are just trolling for the lulz

Quote from: Sacrosanct;754689begs the question: do you speak English?  This should be obvious to anyone with basic reading comprehension skills, but that quote of mine in no way means what you said it means.  Nothing in my quote even implies "You either like pregens or you must be a denner". It means what I said.  That saying that the entire purpose of the game is chargen is what the Denners are known for saying.

I have to assume at this point you either have some serious mental deficiencies, are impaired heavily by something, or are just trolling for the lulz

Thank you for proving my earlier point.

Bye-bye now!

Quote from: jeff37923;754686Amusing, didn't the 4E fans crow like this while that version was being rolled out?

See, I'm not just talking about D&D Next. Wizbros will do whatever they want with the game and the audience has no real input. I've been talking about RPGs in general for awhile now.

I'm not crowing. I'm declaring victory. Your nonsense has failed. We don't care if you're butt hurt about WOTC. The argument was about making characters first or playing first. Playing first won.

Also, remember all the consultants? Pundit was one of many. They are reaching out to Kobold Press as a design shop. They ARE listening. Just not to you. I get it. You want to be loved and you want people to listen to you and look upon your brilliance and be awed. It's cool. You just don't get that this time. Because you and yours have lost. You should read up and practice a bit so maybe next time people will adore you.

But look at the bright side. No one's dead! We can go to war again over something and see where the dice fall! It's the best kind of war ever! You can try again!

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;754687Yes, but 5e will be forgotten, too.

Fine. I'm really only concerned about the TRUTH we have learned from this war. Playing it First is better. In every way. I imagine you will see this wisdom in every edition from here on to the end of time. You see the terrible war we fought over it? It will be worth it.

Quote from: jeff37923;754690Thank you for proving my earlier point.

Bye-bye now!

what point is that?  That your title describes your every waking moment?

your posts remind me of my old high school buddy who is a severe alcoholic and every time he would call he would just spout nonsense and act like he's making perfect sense while everyone else just doesn't get it

Quote from: jeff37923;754681OK, that arguement I'll buy. It makes a Hell of a lot more sense than jibba's claim that kids today can't follow instructions and wouldn't now what dice were.

Actually you would be suprised to learn that most people have no idea what terms like "4d6" mean and throw away phrases like "generate 6 values using 4d6 drop lowest and assign them to the 6 core stats" whilst being entirely clear to game players may as well be written in greek for everyone else.

Which of course was the point I was making when I noted that a quick chargen summary in a sidebar in the starter book would be worthless as the people that would understand it wouldn't need it and the people that would need it wouldn't understand it.

But do carry on

Quote from: trechriron;754691I'm not crowing. I'm declaring victory.

'Nuff said.

Quote from: jibbajibba;754699Actually you would be suprised to learn that most people have no idea what terms like "4d6" mean and throw away phrases like "generate 6 values using 4d6 drop lowest and assign them to the 6 core stats" whilst being entirely clear to game players may as well be written in greek for everyone else.

Which of course was the point I was making when I noted that a quick chargen summary in a sidebar in the starter book would be worthless as the people that would understand it wouldn't need it and the people that would need it wouldn't understand it.

But do carry on

Welcome to the idiot que, line forms behind 5acrosanct.

Quote from: jeff37923;754710Welcome to the idiot que, line forms behind 5acrosanct.

protip: before insulting someone's intelligence, learn to spell.  It's "queue".

but I guess you're good for an irony laugh at any rate...

Wow, this is still going on? Jeff you have to understand you aren't the audience anymore then myself and like any experienced roleplayer have internalized the rules to a degree that you can't even realize let alone admit.

As already explained they are targeting this in multiple channels and platforms and the Starter is explicitly targeted to kids, and newbies and mothers shopping at Target et al.

Quote from: jibbajibba;754699Actually you would be suprised to learn that most people have no idea what terms like "4d6" mean

What's your point with this?

I mean, is the single sentence explanation of the "#d#" notation something that's seriously hard for new gamers to grasp?

Quote from: kythri;754723What's your point with this?

I mean, is the single sentence explanation of the "#d#" notation something that's seriously hard for new gamers to grasp?

Yes. You ever spout that gibberish (game speak) to me or wrote it in a sidebar when I first started or read the game I would have looked at you crosseyed and just said roll whatever the hell you're talking about for me up or just give me an extra character thingy. Let's just play already!!! (You got me interested already so don't bore me stupid).

Quote from: Marleycat;754719Wow, this is still going on? Jeff you have to understand you aren't the audience anymore then myself and like any experienced roleplayer have internalized the rules to a degree that you can't even realize let alone admit.

As already explained they are targeting this in multiple channels and platforms and the Starter is explicitly targeted to kids, and newbies and mothers shopping at Target et al.

If they are, they aren't doing a good job advertising. I haven't seen any ads on any kids channels (I see what my daughter watches on TV) and I haven't seen any ads in any comic books lately (D&D used to have tons of ads back in the day). Even if it is coming out in July, you need to get people excited ahead of time.

Quote from: Marleycat;754728Yes. You ever spout that gibberish (game speak) to me or wrote it in a sidebar when I first started or read the game I would have looked at you crosseyed and just said roll whatever the hell you're talking about for me up or just give me an extra character thingy already. Let's just play already!!

Why is that hard to understand for a newbie? I understood it when I started reading RPGs. It's something that can be explained in a sentence or two.

Quote from: Endless Flight;754729If they are, they aren't doing a good job advertising. I haven't seen any ads on any kids channels (I see what my daughter watches on TV) and I haven't seen any ads in any comic books lately (D&D used to have tons of ads back in the day). Even if it is coming out in July, you need to get people excited ahead of time.

probably because it's not out yet.  Ads targeted at kids are "buy now" because kids will forget after a month has passed.  We'll see in July.  Although I'm hopeing they will have commercials, I remain skeptical.

Quote from: Marleycat;754719Wow, this is still going on? Jeff you have to understand you aren't the audience anymore then myself and like any experienced roleplayer have internalized the rules to a degree that you can't even realize let alone admit.

As already explained they are targeting this in multiple channels and platforms and the Starter is explicitly targeted to kids, and newbies and  mothers shopping at Target et al.

I know many are looking at this only through the lens of D&D Next, except for me. I got that I've stirred up a hornet's nest by offering my opinion that disagrees with how WotC is doing things and because of that I am a pariah to the idiot diehards.

However, my opinion remains unchanged.

I'll take a look at D&D Next when it comes out and judge D&D Next after seeing it. That does not mean I will refrain from my own independant thought on whether or not it is a good game or even if it has good implementation as a game in its release.

You want to know why people abandon D&D? It is bullshit like this where you must swear fealty to the New Hotness or else you are one of THEM. I'd rather not game with binary thinking bullies who don't have an intellectual leg to stand on.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;754731probably because it's not out yet.  Ads targeted at kids are "buy now" because kids will forget after a month has passed.  We'll see in July.  Although I'm Hopping they will have commercials, I remain skeptical.

It's Hasbro. That's all you need to know.

Quote from: Marleycat;754728Yes. You ever spout that gibberish (game speak) to me or wrote it in a sidebar when I first started or read the game I would have looked at you crosseyed and just said roll whatever the hell you're talking about for me up or just give me an extra character thingy already. Let's just play already!!

So, if we go back to what I said, the single sentence needed to explain what "#d#" is, that's too hard for you?  Really?

Because it's not like that notation is exclusive to chargen.

I don't expect people to know what "#d#" is inherently.  I would expect anyone who isn't a drooling idiot to pretty damned quickly grasp that.

It's not a tough concept, and if people are holding that up as an example of a barrier to entry, then, God help this hobby.

Quote from: Endless Flight;754730Why is that hard to understand for a newbie? I understood it when I started reading RPGs. It's something that can be explained in a sentence or two.

To you or myself yes. But when I started my brother was explaining I so I got excited and already had my concept of what fighter or wizard I was going to play regardless and wanted to PLAY immediately not roll dice to create what I was already going to play despite numbers I could give a frig about. My brother was explaining the game to me not character generation. And that was why I got interested.

Quote from: jeff37923;754678Dude, argueing logically with you is pointless.

That's not really a statement you can sincerely make until you make an attempt to do so.  Something you've yet to accomplish.

oh please.  Give it a rest already.  No one here has remotely tried to make you swear fealty to 5e.  You're doing what you always do, making up arguments in your head that no one has made to portray yourself as some sort of bullied person who is just trying to "fight the power"

Quote from: Sacrosanct;754689begs the question: do you speak English?

No no no.  You totally botched that quote.  This is how it goes:

(http://www.quickmeme.com/img/87/87155a305956b1cfc439fc45986d447009ee0851e4327f8b6b267d0fdaea0e8e.jpg)

Quote from: kythri;754734So, if we go back to what I said, the single sentence needed to explain what "#d#" is, that's too hard for you?  Really?

Because it's not like that notation is exclusive to chargen.

I don't expect people to know what "#d#" is inherently.  I would expect anyone who isn't a drooling idiot to pretty damned quickly grasp that.

It's not a tough concept, and if people are holding that up as an example of a barrier to entry, then, God help this hobby.

I agree and you're elitist attitude is the reason as your post shows in full color. Even to us drooling idiots. It's not about that sentence I would have never read it's all about shut up at let's play. I am already convinced get it?

Quote from: Endless Flight;754733It's Hasbro. That's all you need to know.

Name me a product targeted at kids that Hasbro has advertised 2 months in advance of it even coming out.

I wouldn't be surprised if they waited until Christmas to advertise it.  That's when they would get the most bang for their buck.

Quote from: Endless Flight;754729If they are, they aren't doing a good job advertising. I haven't seen any ads on any kids channels (I see what my daughter watches on TV) and I haven't seen any ads in any comic books lately (D&D used to have tons of ads back in the day). Even if it is coming out in July, you need to get people excited ahead of time.

Can't say I disagree honestly. But it's not a big deal given Boardgames aren't core brands to the general public anyway. You get them at Thanksgiving and Christmas usually.

they just need to do a cartoon already.  Animators from Avatar The Last Airbender and writers from the Teen Titans (NOT Teen Titans go)

Quote from: Sacrosanct;754746they just need to do a cartoon already.  Animators from Avatar The Last Airbender and writers from the Teen Titans (NOT Teen Titans go)

That would be just the ticket to core brand status end of story.

Quote from: Mistwell;754744Name me a product targeted at kids that Hasbro has advertised 2 months in advance of it even coming out.

I wouldn't be surprised if they waited until Christmas to advertise it.  That's when they would get the most bang for their buck.

They've advertised toys ahead of time, but we have to go back to when they were actually good at advertising, which was the 80s.

When has Hasbro advertised Dungeons & Dragons correctly? It's comical to say TSR did a better job at it, but it's true!

Quote from: Endless Flight;754729If they are, they aren't doing a good job advertising. I haven't seen any ads on any kids channels (I see what my daughter watches on TV) and I haven't seen any ads in any comic books lately (D&D used to have tons of ads back in the day). Even if it is coming out in July, you need to get people excited ahead of time.

Can't say I disagree honestly.

Quote from: kythri;754734So, if we go back to what I said, the single sentence needed to explain what "#d#" is, that's too hard for you?  Really?

Because it's not like that notation is exclusive to chargen.

I don't expect people to know what "#d#" is inherently.  I would expect anyone who isn't a drooling idiot to pretty damned quickly grasp that.

It's not a tough concept, and if people are holding that up as an example of a barrier to entry, then, God help this hobby.

This all needs to be put back in context :)

bionicjellyfish suggested they could have fit a condensed chargen into a sidebar in the main book.
I outlined an opionion that this would not serve a useful purpose as the people the starter set is aimed at would not be experienced roleplayers and so would really need a full explanation of the process and details. As is going to be provided in the free basic rules. I highlighted this by taking the bionicjellyfish's example text and pointing out it contained a number of terms that we all find entirely clear but which to a non roleplayer might be at best cryptic and at worse unitelligible.

Jeff took umbrage with this for some reason, not sure why as it seems fairly logical to me, and for some reason thought I was saying kids don't know what dice are (well he obviously didn't really think that but he had been caught out by jumping into an argument without reading the actual detail and he needed to grasp at a thing to deflect).

I went on to point out that there are a number of terms of which *d* is a classic example that beginers need to be introduced to and that you probably don't want to use in your introduction to chargen for 10 year olds who have no idea what rpgs are.

All this seems quite logical as is your assertion that terminology like *d* needs to be explained to new players.

This whole argument is really quite strange.

We seem to be arguing that the D&D 5e box set won't be the same as other old starter sets (which contained chargen amongst other things). Which is perfectly true and no one disagrees with, so why argue.

The point is that WotC don't intend it to be that . That itch they have scratched with the decision to make Basic 5e free to download and use.
The new "Starter Set' is trying to do a different thing and introduce new players to the game in a new way.

Will it work? No idea
Will 5e be a good game or a pile of crap? no idea
Did it need to contain Chargen? well apparently not
Can a game without Chargen be a roleplaying game? As I pointed out a marvel superhero game where you had to play an established marvel hero through a pregen would be a real RPG as would numerous other games set in exisiting fictional worlds with a set roster of characters.
Would such a game be any good? no idea

I for one an not supporting 5e. It might be good it might not you can't really tell until its released. I am merely looking logically at the available facts and drawing a reasoned conclusion.

Quote from: jeff37923;754686Amusing, didn't the 4E fans crow like this while that version was being rolled out?

See, I'm not just talking about D&D Next. Wizbros will do whatever they want with the game and the audience has no real input. I've been talking about RPGs in general for awhile now.

Given the playtest was downloaded something like 100,000+ plus times, and was done in conjunction with polling on the same scale, there's been more audience input on D&D 5E than any other iteration of the game. That doesn't mean it will be a great game, or one that you will like. But recognizing a lot of other people may legitimately like something you personally dislike is the first step to letting go of edition-rage.

Quote from: Endless Flight;754729If they are, they aren't doing a good job advertising. I haven't seen any ads on any kids channels (I see what my daughter watches on TV) and I haven't seen any ads in any comic books lately (D&D used to have tons of ads back in the day). Even if it is coming out in July, you need to get people excited ahead of time.

Why is TV advertising some sort of hallmark of a proper advertising campaign? I don't think I've ever seen a D&D commercial. Ever see a commercial for Settlers of Catan? I haven't either. And it has only sold about 20 million copies. TV advertising on anything but a massive $$$$ scale is going the way of the dodo anyway. Frankly, I'd be more worried about the savvy of WotC if they did blow millions on a TV spot and air time.

Quote from: kythri;754723What's your point with this?

I mean, is the single sentence explanation of the "#d#" notation something that's seriously hard for new gamers to grasp?

I guess everyone who managed to play RPGs for the last 40 years is a genius, because I've never heard of anyone who couldn't understand 4d6 is 4 six-sided dice when you tell them, once.

Quote from: Simlasa;754544Hypothetical:
A new RPG comes out... it has no chargen at all. Just pregens. There are no other books planned, ever (though they will release packs of new pregens occasionally).
You can only play it with pregens unless you want to backwards engineer how the writers made the pregens... make up homerules.
All else being good... would this bother you?
Would you argue with people who were bothered by it?
Would you consider it a 'complete' RPG?

Of course... a couple of you have already owned up to not liking chargen anyway... but for the others?

EDIT: No, I am not equating this not-real game to 5e or it's 'Starter'

Additional question paramiter...

What if the pregen was left blank for name and gender?
What if the pregen was a fully fleshed out character with their own name, ideas and goals?

For me I view it thusly because I've done stage acting.

If the pregen is its own character and I have zero input in this then I am Role-Acting. I am acting out a character. This could be Spiderman, Drizzt, Johan, etc.

If I can at least define the name and gender then it falls to Role-Playing since Ive at least got a little input in it. Moreso if I can actually choose which pregen to use. Simmilar to how Shadowrun had the Archetypes you could choose.

And THAT is what the Starter pregens should have been called. Archetypes, Templates, whatever.

Quote from: CRKrueger;754760I guess everyone who managed to play RPGs for the last 40 years is a genius, because I've never heard of anyone who couldn't understand 4d6 is 4 six-sided dice when you tell them, once.

Except...
1. That wasn't what he said he said 4d6 drop 1. Or something worse like the Monster Manual with stat blocks.
2. You aren't there to explain.

4d6 drop 1? What? (as I lose interest because I want to play Zena or Gabrielle already) move it along to the action you old person. Just how hard is "let's play" a concept to grasp? Especially given none of you are the target audience. Not one. Unless you decide to DM it?  Or can't be arsed to print out the free rules? Seriously?

For the mentally impaired those pregens are classic archetypes does that help?

Quote from: Sacrosanct;754635It's like saying Final Fantasy for the Super NES isn't a video game RPG, but Eye of the Beholder is, based solely on the fact that you can spend time creating a custom party in EotB and you can't in FF.

Thats because FF is more like an interactive movie, especially in the later editions, than an RPG. So it is a poor example.

Better example might be the like perhaps the Elder Scrolls games where you essentially are handed a pregen that you custom the looks of.

Quote from: Omega;754766Thats because FF is more like an interactive movie, especially in the later editions, than an RPG. So it is a poor example.

Better example might be the like perhaps the Elder Scrolls games where you essentially are handed a pregen that you custom the looks of.

that's why I specifically compared the snes ff vs the snes eotb.

Quote from: Marleycat;754748That would be just the ticket to core brand status end of story.

Apparently Hasbro is still locking horns with Solomon since he is blockading any new D&D movies and claiming that extends to TV, not sure if hes including cartoons. But till that mess is cleared seems we arent getting any new Live action D&D movies/TV series that arent from Solomon. And Book of Vile Darkness was pretty bad overall.

Quote from: Mistwell;754744Name me a product targeted at kids that Hasbro has advertised 2 months in advance of it even coming out.

I wouldn't be surprised if they waited until Christmas to advertise it.  That's when they would get the most bang for their buck.

Hasbro? Various. They have advertisements out fairly regularly. Was planning a movie line but thats falling apart fast.

WOTC? That is a totally different matter. Aside from the Kaijudo cartoon series their advertising side is about nil. WOTCs marketing branch is notoriously awful.

Quote from: Omega;754772Hasbro? Various. They have advertisements out fairly regularly.

For a product 2 months in advance of it's first release?

No, no they do not.  Name one.

Quote from: Omega;754770Apparently Hasbro is still locking horns with Solomon since he is blockading any new D&D movies and claiming that extends to TV, not sure if hes including cartoons. But till that mess is cleared seems we arent getting any new Live action D&D movies/TV series that arent from Solomon. And Book of Vile Darkness was pretty bad overall.

I agree about BoVD. And the rest just blows chunks.:(

Even the Star Trek cartoon was awesomesauce.

Quote from: Haffrung;754757But recognizing a lot of other people may legitimately like something you personally dislike is the first step to letting go of edition-rage.

Another first step is taking off the blinders that see any possible criticism or negative statement about something that even isn't out yet as edition rage.

Quote from: jeff37923;754779Another first step is taking off the blinders that see any possible criticism or negative statement about something that even isn't out yet as edition rage.

I wanted to make a snide comment about this but the problem is you're right. And LibraryLass is awesome (on completely unrelated note) she nailed it hardcore. See what boredom does to me?

Quote from: Marleycat;754762Except...
1. That wasn't what he said he said 4d6 drop 1. Or something worse like the Monster Manual with stat blocks.
2. You aren't there to explain.

4d6 drop 1? What? (as I lose interest because I want to play Zena or Gabrielle already) move it along to the action you old person. Just how hard is "let's play" a concept to grasp? Especially given none of you are the target audience. Not one. Unless you decide to DM it?  Or can't be arsed to print out the free rules? Seriously?

For the mentally impaired those pregens are classic archetypes does that help?

You need to take a chill pill and read what was posted by the individual instead of wading into the thread swinging at everything like a drunk at a Piñata party. :D

Oh and btw, "Roll 4 six-sided dice and count the highest 3." 10 years old we're talking about a 4th or 5th grader.  

Focused on pick up and play, is a valid argument.  All children have morphed into special needs math skills candidates simply to justify the Starter Set is not.

To be brief...

1)  The digital age isn't just about kids.  Brother and wife both had laptops out this weekend, and I know you can find a zillion GM "what do I do about electronics" threads via Google.

2)  I think I'll video my 12 year old when we level his cavalier from 3 to 4, just to sort of illustrate the brain-shift required to go from Minecraft to Pathfinder.  Maybe you'll see what I mean then.

3) I don't expect television ads for D&D, ever.  Satanic Panic and all that.  Motivated moms will bitch about the slightest thing on TV these days.  There's a lot more leeway online.

Quote from: jeff37923;754779Another first step is taking off the blinders that see any possible criticism or negative statement about something that even isn't out yet as edition rage.

Who's doing that though, with "any possible criticism"?  Haffrung and everyone else on this forum who has said they like 5e has also criticized it as well in the past.  I guess your big issue with that is you somehow feel betrayed that people who previously were very vocal about their love for OSR style games and dislike for 3e and 4e now also say they like this new edition?  Do you feel like a jilted lover or something?  That's it's inconceivable that someone could be a huge fan of AD&D, dislike 3e and 4e, and also be a fan of 5e?

No, what people have been taking issue with are statements like "the game can go die in fire", or "unless you create your own PC, you're missing the whole purpose of the game."  Those statements most certainly aren't just "any sort of criticism" against 5e.  And when people do take issue with those types of statements, your response is to paint them as some sort of 5e fanboi by doing things like "5acrosant", despite the noticeable lack of any one post of mine in this entire thread that remotely is irrationally defending 5e.

No, what it is, is you painting anyone who doesn't agree with your ridiculously hyperbolic criticism as someone who must be a fanboi instead.  Which means you're behavior is exactly the same as the SJWs at TBP.  Needless to say, that's some serious irony going on there.

Quote from: jeff37923;754779Another first step is taking off the blinders that see any possible criticism or negative statement about something that even isn't out yet as edition rage.

I wasn't responding to criticisms of the game - I was responding to your comment that WotC will do what it likes regardless of what the audience wants. Just pointing out that there's no single audience for D&D, and regardless of what they do some people will like it and some won't. But this edition does seem to be based more on broad market input than other versions of the game. So whether you or I ultimately like it doesn't really speak to whether it finds a popular audience.

Quote from: mcbobbo;7548193) I don't expect television ads for D&D, ever.  Satanic Panic and all that.  Motivated moms will bitch about the slightest thing on TV these days.  There's a lot more leeway online.

Did you miss the various World of Warcraft tv ads?  I mean they had the Prince of Darkness himself (Ozzy Osbourne) in one of them.  Those could have easily been D&D ads, if WotC had Blizzard's budget.  Diablo as well.  As far as I can tell, the "satanic panic" as a phenomena is over  (as opposed to just a parent being an idiot).

Quote from: Sacrosanct;754827I guess you're big issue with that is you somehow feel betrayed that people who previously were very vocal about their love for OSR style games and dislike for 3e and 4e now also say they like this new edition?  Do you feel like a jilted lover or something?  That's it's inconceivable that someone could be a huge fan of AD&D, dislike 3e and 4e, and also be a fan of 5e?

I don't know if Jeff has taken that stance, but there are certainly a lot of OSR folks who have. There's nothing a Bolshevik hates more than a socialist. The capitalists they understand - in fact, capitalists are necessary to provoke the revolution. But socialists are compromising traitors.

Quote from: Brander;754836Did you miss the various World of Warcraft tv ads?  I mean they had the Prince of Darkness himself (Ozzy Osbourne) in one of them.  Those could have easily been D&D ads, if WotC had Blizzard's budget.  Diablo as well.  As far as I can tell, the "satanic panic" as a phenomena is over  (as opposed to just a parent being an idiot).

WotC would have Blizzard's budget if D&D had WoW's income.

Quote from: Haffrung;754838WotC would have Blizzard's budget if D&D had WoW's income.

It would be cool if they could do that though, with real celebrity D&D players.

"I'm Tim Duncan, and I am a wizard." (this one is particularly interesting because he's not only a jock and "jocks hate geeks", but he's arguably the best PF to every play in the NBA--lots of credibility there)
"I'm Vin Diesel, and I'm a barbarian."
"We're Ben Afflec and Matt Damon, and we're lovers...er...we are a wizard and a fighter."
"I'm Dame Judy Dench, and I am the dungeon master.  What else did you expect?"
"I'm Kari Byron, and I am a warrior." (from mythbusters)
"I'm the Rock.  What do you think I play?"
"Hi, this is Joss Whedon, Wil Wheaton, and Nathan Fillon.  Want to join our game?"
"I'm Stephen Colbert.  Maybe you've heard of me. Or my rogue assassin."

Quote from: Brander;754836Did you miss the various World of Warcraft tv ads?  I mean they had the Prince of Darkness himself (Ozzy Osbourne) in one of them.  Those could have easily been D&D ads, if WotC had Blizzard's budget.  Diablo as well.  As far as I can tell, the "satanic panic" as a phenomena is over  (as opposed to just a parent being an idiot).

Ads are tax deductible, budgets are what they are to a point ~ 25% of an automobile and 50% of prescription drugs are cost of advertising, be careful of what you wish for.

Quote from: Haffrung;754837I don't know if Jeff has taken that stance,

I haven't.

But facts and rational thought can't stop 5acrosanct. He's on a mission from God.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;754746they just need to do a cartoon already.  Animators from Avatar The Last Airbender and writers from the Teen Titans (NOT Teen Titans go)

My Little Pony is popular due to the writing, apparently. Nab their writers and do a cartoon about the powers of TEAMWORK and FRIENDSHIP and ADVENTURE. Merchandise the hell out of it.

The RPG would probably end up just being this wierd side-thing off to the side of the rest of the brand, but I think people would be a lot happier with that being the case than they'd think; Hasbro evidently know how to deal with an unexpected fanbase.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;754827No, what people have been taking issue with are statements like "the game can go die in fire"

And... no one said that.
I said the STARTER SET can go die in a fire... I acknowledged that it was pure hyperbole... that the Basic will suit all my interests. I've NEVER made any remarks about 5e itself because I know very little about it.

Quote from: Ladybird;754847... do a cartoon about the powers of TEAMWORK and FRIENDSHIP and ADVENTURE.

... and KILL THEM, LOOT the CORPSES, pray the strange EVIL GODS for MAGIC POWERS. lol

D&D has a way to go before it is acceptable for kids.

Quote from: dragoner;754850... and KILL THEM, LOOT the CORPSES, pray the strange EVIL GODS for MAGIC POWERS. lol

D&D has a way to go before it is acceptable for kids.

It's no more or less acceptable than World of Warcraft or Skyrim. And does D&D really need to be marketed to 10 and 12 year olds to be successful?

Quote from: dragoner;754850D&D has a way to go before it is acceptable for kids.

I'm right now watching a 7yr old gun down hundreds of enemies in a fairly realistic FPS... AND he is looting their corpses... in a game his mom bought him.
True, there is no worship of strange gods... though some of the noises the boy is making might lead you to think he is possessed.

Quote from: Haffrung;754852It's no more or less acceptable than World of Warcraft or Skyrim. And does D&D really need to be marketed to 10 and 12 year olds to be successful?

Quote from: Simlasa;754853I'm right now watching a 7yr old gun down hundreds of enemies in a fairly realistic FPS... AND he is looting their corpses... in a game his mom bought him.
True, there is no worship of strange gods... though some of the noises the boy is making might lead you to think he is possessed.

Just saying, that there really can't be a mlp type cartoon made from D&D without totally toning it down, and then at that point it loses it's appeal to the older group.

Quote from: Haffrung;754852It's no more or less acceptable than World of Warcraft or Skyrim. And does D&D really need to be marketed to 10 and 12 year olds to be successful?

What's your definition of success?

Man the Character It First crowd sure are sore losers.

Quote from: Endless Flight;754859What's your definition of success?

Closer to 3E level of sales and sustained popularity than 4E.

Quote from: Brander;754836Did you miss the various World of Warcraft tv ads?  I mean they had the Prince of Darkness himself (Ozzy Osbourne) in one of them.  Those could have easily been D&D ads, if WotC had Blizzard's budget.  Diablo as well.  As far as I can tell, the "satanic panic" as a phenomena is over  (as opposed to just a parent being an idiot).

Quote from: Sacrosanct;754840It would be cool if they could do that though, with real celebrity D&D players.

"I'm Tim Duncan, and I am a wizard." (this one is particularly interesting because he's not only a jock and "jocks hate geeks", but he's arguably the best PF to every play in the NBA--lots of credibility there)
"I'm Vin Diesel, and I'm a barbarian."
"We're Ben Afflec and Matt Damon, and we're lovers...er...we are a wizard and a fighter."
"I'm Dame Judy Dench, and I am the dungeon master.  What else did you expect?"
"I'm Kari Byron, and I am a warrior." (from mythbusters)
"I'm the Rock.  What do you think I play?"
"Hi, this is Joss Whedon, Wil Wheaton, and Nathan Fillon.  Want to join our game?"
"I'm Stephen Colbert.  Maybe you've heard of me. Or my rogue assassin."

But on what channel?  I don't see it flying on Nick or Cartoon Network.  I just don't.  Adult Swim, SiFi, (do they have ads during Game of Thrones?) - anywhere where they advertise M rated video games is probably okay.

I'll happy post to a thread admitting I'm wrong when we see an ad though.

Quote from: Haffrung;754852It's no more or less acceptable than World of Warcraft or Skyrim. And does D&D really need to be marketed to 10 and 12 year olds to be successful?

I don't know but why not try it given it's already been done the other way previously.

Quote from: trechriron;754861Man the Character It First crowd sure are sore losers.

the really mind blowing thing is that on this forum at least, it's not the character first crowd.  That's why this whole thing is so odd.  Many of the folks who have come off as character first are the same ones who for years adamantly argued that options in chargen wasn't important, but it was how you played that PC in actual play that defined them, their style, and all that jazz.  Chargen was only important insofar as to be a rough outline of the PC type you wanted.  That you could have two identical fighters in B/X mechanically, but have them be completely different in how you play them.  Now some of these same people are implying that chargen is the entire purpose of the game?  

Truly baffling.

It's also telling that some of these people refuse to actually address some of the questions presented.  Like the whole, "Do you consider someone who uses an array, max HP, and a pre-made adventurer's pack, and chooses a dwarf in B/X to be creating a character?  And if so, how is that so fundamentally different from them choosing a pre-made dwarf in that one is experiencing a "true" rpg experience and the other is not, since really the only choice each is making is playing a dwarf?"

Quote from: Sacrosanct;754840It would be cool if they could do that though, with real celebrity D&D players.

"I'm Tim Duncan, and I am a wizard." (this one is particularly interesting because he's not only a jock and "jocks hate geeks", but he's arguably the best PF to every play in the NBA--lots of credibility there)
"I'm Vin Diesel, and I'm a barbarian."
"We're Ben Afflec and Matt Damon, and we're lovers...er...we are a wizard and a fighter."
"I'm Dame Judy Dench, and I am the dungeon master.  What else did you expect?"
"I'm Kari Byron, and I am a warrior." (from mythbusters)
"I'm the Rock.  What do you think I play?"
"Hi, this is Joss Whedon, Wil Wheaton, and Nathan Fillon.  Want to join our game?"
"I'm Stephen Colbert.  Maybe you've heard of me. Or my rogue assassin."

That would be pretty awesome.

Quote from: Ladybird;754847My Little Pony is popular due to the writing, apparently. Nab their writers and do a cartoon about the powers of TEAMWORK and FRIENDSHIP and ADVENTURE. Merchandise the hell out of it.

The RPG would probably end up just being this wierd side-thing off to the side of the rest of the brand, but I think people would be a lot happier with that being the case than they'd think; Hasbro evidently know how to deal with an unexpected fanbase.

Agreed. But the animators from Avatar would be a nice touch too, that show is frickin' beautiful. Of course they're probably busy with Legend of Korra.

Actually speaking of MLP the only thing I can think of that they've even come close to advertising two months in advance is the new Equestria Girls movie, and even then, the dolls for it are already out.

Quote from: mcbobbo;754865do they have ads during Game of Thrones?)

Nope, it's on HBO.

QuoteBut on what channel?  I don't see it flying on Nick or Cartoon Network.  I just don't.  Adult Swim, SiFi, - anywhere where they advertise M rated video games is probably okay.

I dunno, I think they could run it anywhere that a T-rated video game could run. I mean, I've had plenty of campaigns that were about as dark as, say, Legend of Zelda.

Edit: Might as well advertise on the Hub... I mean, after all, they own it. I could also see them advertising on the CW... Between Arrow, the upcoming Flash, the 100, Vampire Diaries, and the Originals, they have a lot of genre shows on.

Quote from: dragoner;754850... and KILL THEM, LOOT the CORPSES, pray the strange EVIL GODS for MAGIC POWERS. lol

D&D has a way to go before it is acceptable for kids.

Missed the 80s did you?

The D&D cartoon series had most of the points he listed AND they succeeded in not killing anyone. Well... mostly. Its main thrust was friendship and especially teamwork.

Quote from: Omega;754877Missed the 80s did you?

The D&D cartoon series had most of the points he listed AND they succeeded in not killing anyone. Well... mostly. Its main thrust was friendship and especially teamwork.

Sorry, I was actually playing D&D at that point; never saw it (though I knew it existed - later). So there is your point break, why make a cartoon that can't reach it's intended audience?

Quote from: dragoner;754880Sorry, I was actually playing D&D at that point; never saw it (though I knew it existed - later). So there is your point break, why make a cartoon that can't reach it's intended audience?

I thought the intended audience was pretty much anyone over 10.  I was playing D&D back then too, and yes, my sessions were a million more times violent than the cartoons.  But I still enjoyed them.  Also, no one says that have to be like that again.  The Teen Titans cartoon was fairly dark.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;754882I thought the intended audience was pretty much anyone over 10.  I was playing D&D back then too, and yes, my sessions were a million more times violent than the cartoons.  But I still enjoyed them.  Also, no one says that have to be like that again.  The Teen Titans cartoon was fairly dark.

AFAIK, "dark" cartoons are Adult Swim fare, not that of the kids variety; look at the crackdown on "war-toys".

edit: And that being said, if the makers of Metalocalypse made a D&D cartoon for Adult Swim, I would watch that. Probably never happen though.

Quote from: dragoner;754896AFAIK, "dark" cartoons are Adult Swim fare, not that of the kids variety; look at the crackdown on "war-toys".

edit: And that being said, if the makers of Metalocalypse made a D&D cartoon for Adult Swim, I would watch that. Probably never happen though.

I still think that the name alone pushes it into risky territory,  let alone the content.

But as noted, if they elect to do TV spots at all, they're probably going to run them on the Hub.

Quote from: dragoner;754896AFAIK, "dark" cartoons are Adult Swim fare, not that of the kids variety; look at the crackdown on "war-toys".

edit: And that being said, if the makers of Metalocalypse made a D&D cartoon for Adult Swim, I would watch that. Probably never happen though.

Teen Titans is very much a kids cartoon.  I think it could really work.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;754921Teen Titans is very much a kids cartoon.  I think it could really work.

Transformers: Prime also had a good many dark moments, with several plots feeling like they were pulled from a horror movie, and a named character voiced by The Rock being killed in the first 10 minutes of the show. (Also, the whole being turned into a terrorcon, having his legs blown off and aimlessly trying to attack his old friends like a zombie as he dragged himself across the ground)

Not to mention the absolute legions of Decepticon mooks that got destroyed in the show.

And it was a afternoon kids show on The Hub (which, lets be honest, is the channel any D&D cartoon would be on), and was later added to the CW Saturday morning block in reruns.

I agree with mcbobbo that it is pushing risky territory. I can't say I know anything about Teen Titans, the hub or even the Transformer cartoons. I'm 47 though, in my defence.

Quote from: dragoner;754928I agree with mcbobbo that it is pushing risky territory. I can't say I know anything about Teen Titans, the hub or even the Transformer cartoons. I'm 47 though, in my defence.

I wouldn't know either, except I have a 13 year old ;)

Quote from: Sacrosanct;754931I wouldn't know either, except I have a 13 year old ;)

Mine are 24 and 27; I kind of miss them keeping me current.

I'm looking forward to mine being old enough to watch interesting things. I've seen every episode of In The Night Garden like five times.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;754931I wouldn't know either, except I have a 13 year old ;)

I have a 12 and a 7 year old.

But, honestly, I just watched the TF: Prime cartoon because I am a huge TF fan and think its a well done show. Both my kids love it, too.

Quote from: Ladybird;754934I'm looking forward to mine being old enough to watch interesting things. I've seen every episode of In The Night Garden like five times.

I always had to laugh at the remains of the day, like coming into the living room and finding my wife curled up on couch watching My Little Pony for the Nth time. We owned horses back then though.

Quote from: dragoner;754932Mine are 24 and 27; I kind of miss them keeping me current.

My oldest is 23.  So I've had almost a never-ending stream of cartoons for decades :D

The best of both worlds would be to have 1980s ideas with the 2010s animation.

Quote from: Endless Flight;754940The best of both worlds would be to have 1980s ideas with the 2010s animation.

Alot of modern US TV cartoons are sub-par compared to those from the 80s. With the occasional gems. Im personally getting a little tired of the low-grade flash animated cartoons and even the quality ones tend to be lacking slightly. Im getting exponentially tired of bad CG mixed with standard animation.

For what its worth Hasbro would have had a D&D movie and/or TV series out or soon to be out were it not for WB and Solomon blockading still.

Quote from: mcbobbo;754919I still think that the name alone pushes it into risky territory,  let alone the content.

But as noted, if they elect to do TV spots at all, they're probably going to run them on the Hub.

If they could do a kids' cartoon in the eighties, at the height of the Satanic Panic, surely they can in these more enlightened times.

And it'll almost certainly be better written and animated into the bargain.

Quote from: Omega;754977Alot of modern US TV cartoons are sub-par compared to those from the 80s. With the occasional gems. Im personally getting a little tired of the low-grade flash animated cartoons and even the quality ones tend to be lacking slightly. Im getting exponentially tired of bad CG mixed with standard animation.

For what its worth Hasbro would have had a D&D movie and/or TV series out or soon to be out were it not for WB and Solomon blockading still.

Oh, I agree. I can't stand bad CG. Give me a Justice League cartoon anytime over most anything else.

I think the cartoon should start off right in the action! Just POW! Take the blue ray out of the box and just play it. Then later, we can dig in and get to know the characters better, maybe even have a contest where fans can submit their ideas and create their own characters.

Yeah. I think that would make the best cartoon.

Quote from: LibraryLass;754980If they could do a kids' cartoon in the eighties, at the height of the Satanic Panic, surely they can in these more enlightened times.

And it'll almost certainly be better written and animated into the bargain.

Is that the right order?  Panic > Cartoon?  Because I always thought the panic killed the cartoon.  It looks like it ended in 85, the same year as the 60 Minutes episode about suicides and murders.

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=445_1232224067

Anyway, I just think a certain group of vocal parents is reactionary when it comes to 'kids TV'.

Quote from: mcbobbo;755048Is that the right order?  Panic > Cartoon?  Because I always thought the panic killed the cartoon.  It looks like it ended in 85, the same year as the 60 Minutes episode about suicides and murders.

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=445_1232224067

Anyway, I just think a certain group of vocal parents is reactionary when it comes to 'kids TV'.

The Satanic D&D panic was 30 years ago. Parents today were kids back then. We've had Lord of the Rings, Harry Potter, and World of Warcraft, and none of them were suppressed by fretting parents. With the exception of some enclaves of religious conservatives in the U.S., fantasy is about as mainstream pop culture today as you get.

As a general rule, kid's stuff has become less violent, look at the reaction to "war-toys".

Quote from: Haffrung;755054The Satanic D&D panic was 30 years ago. Parents today were kids back then. We've had Lord of the Rings, Harry Potter, and World of Warcraft, and none of them were suppressed by fretting parents. With the exception of some enclaves of religious conservatives in the U.S., fantasy is about as mainstream pop culture today as you get.

Sure.  But reactionary parenting hasn't changed.

Observe the recent dust up over Jennette McCurdy trying to be sexy.  She wasn't even close to nude, but Nick may or may not cancel the show.  This actress is 21 years old and the photo was meant to be private.  It isn't like she starred in a porn flick or something.   And yet the reaction.

There are other examples I am sure.

And again, I'm not talking about every channel.  Just the middle school targeting channels where the Starter Set ads would be the most effective.

Possible test - is there any progress on a Harry Potter cartoon spinoff?  I'll go google it myself, but I bet it crosses the same line into risky territory.

Lego Harry Potter, Lego Star Wars, and Lego Lord of the Rings are huge franchises aimed at 5-9 year olds. There's magic, sword fights, and things blowing up.

Minecraft has endermen monsters and magic swords. It's absolutely massive with 5-9 year olds - every boy in my son's class plays.

Have you watched any of the superhero cartoons on the TV these days? I'm actually a bit taken aback myself at some of the sexual innuendo. But I don't see them boycotted or suppressed by parents (except maybe the religious home-schooler type, but they've obviously never been the target for D&D)

So what is it about D&D that would make the average parent in 2014 more concerned about it than they are about Harry Potter, Lord of the Rings, Star Wars, the Avengers, Yu-Gi-Oh, or Minecraft?

Quote from: dragoner;755061As a general rule, kid's stuff has become less violent, look at the reaction to "war-toys".

You keep saying that but I don't know what you mean and Google isn't helping. Do you have any citations?

Quote from: Haffrung;755071Lego Harry Potter, Lego Star Wars, and Lego Lord of the Rings are huge franchises aimed at 5-9 year olds. There's magic, sword fights, and things blowing up.

Minecraft has endermen monsters and magic swords. It's absolutely massive with 5-9 year olds - every boy in my son's class plays.

Have you watched any of the superhero cartoons on the TV these days? I'm actually a bit taken aback myself at some of the sexual innuendo. But I don't see them boycotted or suppressed by parents (except maybe the religious home-schooler type, but they've obviously never been the target for D&D)

So what is it about D&D that would make the average parent in 2014 more concerned about it than they are about Harry Potter, Lord of the Rings, Star Wars, the Avengers, Yu-Gi-Oh, or Minecraft?

the preponderance of 40 year old bachelors with social issues and poor personal hygiene that are asking kids to come and see what they have in the basement?

Quote from: Haffrung;755071So what is it about D&D that would make the average parent in 2014 more concerned about it than they are about Harry Potter, Lord of the Rings, Star Wars, the Avengers, Yu-Gi-Oh, or Minecraft?

Assuming the question is earnest and not rhetorical...

1) Reputation - how many of these parents were forbidden to play it themselves?  How many had the rule, "any game but D&D"?
2) Role playing - video games don't ask for persona shifts.  And I'd think parents would be alarmed if their kids started speaking in character for their Minecraft account.
3) Religion - 'nuff said...
4) ...

Honestly I think those are probably enough.

Should it be different?   You and I both know it should not.

Is it different?   Probably.

Quote from: mcbobbo;7550802) Role playing - video games don't ask for persona shifts.  And I'd think parents would be alarmed if their kids started speaking in character for their Minecraft account.

Talking to the computer, maybe. But little girls shift voices and character viewpoints all the time when they're playing dolls. Boys do it with action figures (dolls).

Religion isn't worth worrying about... there's no telling what the fundy nutters will freak out about if they're in the mood for a bonfire... if D&D got under their skin again it might be a good thing.

As for reputation, I think it's worse that it's seen as something that homely maladroids do because they can't find girlfriends... vs. anything about demons/violence/murderhobos.

Quote from: Warthur;755075You keep saying that but I don't know what you mean and Google isn't helping. Do you have any citations?

Hasbro has been floundering with G.I.Joe anymore despite being it's most lucrative property back in the 80s. Sad, but true.

Quote from: Endless Flight;755083Hasbro has been floundering with G.I.Joe anymore despite being it's most lucrative property back in the 80s. Sad, but true.

That might have more to do with the movies being really bad than with any kind of parent activism.

Quote from: Endless Flight;755083Hasbro has been floundering with G.I.Joe anymore despite being it's most lucrative property back in the 80s. Sad, but true.

Well, what's to say that's not just due to it being a dated franchise rather than there being a moral backlash?

Quote from: Warthur;755085Well, what's to say that's not just due to it being a dated franchise rather than there being a moral backlash?

And yet the Transformers are still rolling along after 30 years. It has nothing to do with being dated or a "backlash".

I would point out that even though the GI Joe movies weren't that good (I enjoyed watching them for nostalgia and fight scenes), they were still financial successes. They weren't breaking any records, but they made well more than they spent on them.

They have absolutely failed at keeping a cartoon running though.

Quote from: Endless Flight;755087And yet the Transformers are still rolling along after 30 years. It has nothing to do with being dated or a "backlash".

The Transformers cartoons have kept reinventing themselves over all that time, though - they're not still resting on the laurels of the orignals. The Joe cartoon, so far as I can make out, has floundered to be relevant ever since four-colour Reaganism went out of fashion.

Quote from: Warthur;755105The Transformers cartoons have kept reinventing themselves over all that time, though - they're not still resting on the laurels of the orignals. The Joe cartoon, so far as I can make out, has floundered to be relevant ever since four-colour Reaganism went out of fashion.

They've kept reinventing themselves? How so? It's still the same characters, right? Optimus Prime? Megatron? Robots in disguise? What kind of heavy lifting has Hasbro had to do with the Transformers?

Quote from: mcbobbo;755080Assuming the question is earnest and not rhetorical...

1) Reputation - how many of these parents were forbidden to play it themselves?  How many had the rule, "any game but D&D"?
2) Role playing - video games don't ask for persona shifts.  And I'd think parents would be alarmed if their kids started speaking in character for their Minecraft account.
3) Religion - 'nuff said...
4) ...

Honestly I think those are probably enough.

Should it be different?   You and I both know it should not.

Is it different?   Probably.

I'm a parent, and I can say from my perspective it is different. 2014 is a world away from the 80s in terms of kids, parents, and entertainment. I think you're projecting your own experiences from 30 years ago to today. Besides the religious fundamentalists (who nobody expects to ever be on board with D&D, or Lord of the Rings, or the Avengers, etc.) nobody today cares about that religious stuff anymore. And people have been harping on about the dangers of World of Warcraft since it was released, and it hasn't had any apparent effect on its popularity. Franky, I think most parents today would regard a tabletop D&D game as a healthy and welcome respite from video-games.

Quote from: dragoner;755061As a general rule, kid's stuff has become less violent, look at the reaction to "war-toys".

What, you mean like two Star Wars cartoons, one of which regularly had arcs focusing on the clone troopers' perspective, airing within a couple of years? A year out from the most outright violent and realistic Transformers continuity yet?

And I hate to harp on Avatar again and again, but I wish to emphasize that this is a cartoon that got away with featuring a near-total genocide in its backstory, and that was almost ten years ago, to say nothing of the populist revolution and civil war in Legend of Korra's first two seasons.

Quote from: Exploderwizard;755084That might have more to do with the movies being really bad than with any kind of parent activism.

Bingo, bubbie.

Quote from: LibraryLass;755117What, you mean like two Star Wars cartoons, one of which regularly had arcs focusing on the clone troopers' perspective, airing within a couple of years? A year out from the most outright violent and realistic Transformers continuity yet?

And I hate to harp on Avatar again and again, but I wish to emphasize that this is a cartoon that got away with featuring a near-total genocide in its backstory, and that was almost ten years ago, to say nothing of the populist revolution and civil war in Legend of Korra's first two seasons.

So kids cartoons are getting violent again? Huh, because I noticed in the 90's a definite trend away from violence.

Quote from: Simlasa;755082Religion isn't worth worrying about... there's no telling what the fundy nutters will freak out about if they're in the mood for a bonfire... if D&D got under their skin again it might be a good thing.

Quote from: Haffrung;755112I'm a parent, and I can say from my perspective it is different. 2014 is a world away from the 80s in terms of kids, parents, and entertainment. I think you're projecting your own experiences from 30 years ago to today. Besides the religious fundamentalists (who nobody expects to ever be on board with D&D, or Lord of the Rings, or the Avengers, etc.) nobody today cares about that religious stuff anymore. And people have been harping on about the dangers of World of Warcraft since it was released, and it hasn't had any apparent effect on its popularity. Franky, I think most parents today would regard a tabletop D&D game as a healthy and welcome respite from video-games.

I'm a parent too, and my peers seem to regard me as too hands-off, so maybe their treatment of me and my wife is coloring what I expect others believe.  I'm no pollster.

As for the value TV people place on religion, I'd point you in the direction of Duck Dynasty.

...and my prior example of the Sam and Cat star demonstrates modern moral panic.  Or at least anticipation of it.

It really is a thing, even in the "enlightened modern times" we now enjoy.

Quote from: Warthur;755075You keep saying that but I don't know what you mean and Google isn't helping. Do you have any citations?

Bing? http://www.bing.com/search?q=no+war+toys+for+children&qs=AS&sk=AS1&pq=no+war+toys&sc=2-11&sp=2&FORM=QBRE&cvid=5a74c154997640b7a1a28760ff384048 it is a fairly common thing now when you do charity drives, that they ask for no war toys.

Quote from: mcbobbo;755124...and my prior example of the Sam and Cat star demonstrates modern moral panic.  Or at least anticipation of it.

Well yeah, cause that's SEX... and folks are still freaking out about that. So don't put naked bewbs on the cover (unless you're Mr. Raggi)... two guys in a knife fight is perfectly fine.

The parents I know send mixed messages. The two families I'm closest to are extremes. One set of parents are college professors. The entire family are vocal atheists and, while the parents do keep a pretty close watch on the kids, the sorts of books and movies they'll allow are fairly 'adult'. No overt, grisly horror films... but nightmarish films about the Holocaust? Sure.
The other family are Pentecostals... and they freak out if a woman cuts her hair or exposes her knees/elbows. No TV allowed (but violent videogames seem to squeak by... as long as they're about 'real soldiers' and not zombies/demons).

Quote from: LibraryLass;755117What, you mean like two Star Wars cartoons, one of which regularly had arcs focusing on the clone troopers' perspective, airing within a couple of years? A year out from the most outright violent and realistic Transformers continuity yet?

And I hate to harp on Avatar again and again, but I wish to emphasize that this is a cartoon that got away with featuring a near-total genocide in its backstory, and that was almost ten years ago, to say nothing of the populist revolution and civil war in Legend of Korra's first two seasons.

Yeah... I just get the impression that a lot of criticism of modern cartoons in this thread are from people who haven't seen modern cartoons. Cartoons are not just allowed to be more violent, they are allowed to hit on a lot more complex themes than they were when I was a kid.

There was one story arc in the Clone Wars cartoon, about a Jedi General who takes command of Anakin's unit while Anakin is returning back to Coruscant for reports. And he is consistently ordering the troops into suicide attacks on the enemy with the excuse of expediency and duty. Over the course of 4 episodes, he ignores repeated plans proposed by the increasingly frustrated clone troopers to continue to order them in the most direct, suicidal way.

Eventually, they find out he is a corrupted Jedi, and is intentionally killing them in an attempt lose the planet to the Separatists, at which point they attempt to arrest him for treason. After a prolonged battle, after which he taunts them after he is captured and put in chains, one of the clone troopers pulls his pistol and shoots him dead. And this wasn't played as badass. It was played as the character being desperate and not knowing what else to do. The clones have to arrest their brother for executing the Jedi, and then there is some conversation about what what will happen to them all after the war is over.

My synopsis is kind of crappy compared to the actual story arc... but the thing is... I just, no cartoons outside of anime adaptations/manglings (like Robotech) from when I was a kid come close to the level of storytelling depth. Cartoons are just allowed a lot more leeway than they ever were before, and its making it a legitimate storytelling medium instead of something to entertain the kids.

Again, I doubt most parents watch the cartoons at all.  They just catch a whiff of something they don't think they should like and overreact.

Quote from: mcbobbo;755131Again, I doubt most parents watch the cartoons at all.  They just catch a whiff of something they don't think they should like and overreact.

But I just don't see any proof that this happens to an appreciable level to matter. Do a few goofball parents freak out at things? Probably, but I just don't see any momentum behind it.

I mean, TF: Prime had a slew of episodes that just felt like the premises were ripped from horror movies. If there really was this brigade of parents out to revolt at the slightest provocation, they would have done it the first time they glimpsed one of those episodes.

I mean, one episode was about one of the human characters running through the foggy woods being chased by Airachnid, a Spiderish Decepticon, who was practically a serial killer who was creepily talking about how she would kill him, accompanied by flashbacks from Arcee's past where Airachnid had tortured Arcee's partner to death for the fun of it in front of Arcee. (Weird Trivia: apparently this is all made even more creepy in the Japanese dub, where Airachnid is written as incredibly flirty and wanting to marry him and chasing him in a pepe le pew sort of way. Oh, she was still going to torture and kill him, but only because she wanted him in a sexual way).

If your hypothetical parents existed, I think we would have heard about them by now.

Quote from: Endless Flight;755106They've kept reinventing themselves? How so? It's still the same characters, right? Optimus Prime? Megatron? Robots in disguise? What kind of heavy lifting has Hasbro had to do with the Transformers?

Transformers has gone through about 20 iterations and retained the names of characters and maybee the transforming aspects intact in Japan where the shows kept rolling out long after it ended in the US. A fair portion had no humans in them at all and others sprawled all over the place. Its come a long long long way from its Micro-Man/Micronauts origins.

Actually GI Joe has gone through several iterations as well.

As for what Hasbro has to do with it. Very little. A chunk of the series come from Japan. Some still not released in the US like Beast Wars II and Beast Wars Neo for example. Hasbro just swaps the names out Convoy for Prime, etc.

Quote from: Omega;755141As for what Hasbro has to do with it. Very little. A chunk of the series come from Japan. Some still not released in the US like Beast Wars II and Beast Wars Neo for example. Hasbro just swaps the names out Convoy for Prime, etc.

They are kind of bringing that back though. Prime was US written and produced, as will the next show that is airing next year.

Quote from: dragoner;755120So kids cartoons are getting violent again? Huh, because I noticed in the 90's a definite trend away from violence.

Foxes Spider Man series had several edicts from the execs it had to toil under. Spider Man could not hit anyone, when jumping he could not disturb any birds on rooftops, etc. Reboot is another example of executive meddling.

Fox also did some minor hacking on the D&D cartoon when they aired it.

Quote from: dragoner;755125Bing? http://www.bing.com/search?q=no+war+toys+for+children&qs=AS&sk=AS1&pq=no+war+toys&sc=2-11&sp=2&FORM=QBRE&cvid=5a74c154997640b7a1a28760ff384048 it is a fairly common thing now when you do charity drives, that they ask for no war toys.

Haha, people are getting ridiculous. Everyone I grew up with played with toy guns and GI Joes and not one of us turned out to be a psychopath nor a serial killer. This goes right along with D&D morphing kids into Satanists and sorcerers. Patent absurdity.

I really doubt the no war toys people are actually having much effect, since nerf guns still sell wildly.

Also Nerf Guns are awesome.

Quote from: Emperor Norton;755147I really doubt the no war toys people are actually having much effect, since nerf guns still sell wildly.

Also, parents are nutty with stress, lack of sleep... to much information flying at them all the time. It's not like they're 'professionals'.
I recently had a mom barking at me because her daughter caught a brief glimpse of a Final Destination movie (that her older sister was watching, no concern from the mom about that)... but no thought to the girl watching her brother bloodily slaughter hundreds of characters in videogames. Same mom sat her daughter down and showed her scenes of Auschwitz to convince her she had no reasons for complaining.
There's no discernible consistency there at all... so who's to know what game/cartoon/toy would be OK/NOT OK with them... so play it safe and make it about talking sponge.

I could be wrong about the cartoon's subject matter being too strong for kids. I definitely think that if spongebob is the example, it is, but who knows? As far as the "no war toys" it is a thing; in my household, I taught my sons how to shoot, hunt, fish, camp, etc., so not my thing.

Quote from: Emperor Norton;755147I really doubt the no war toys people are actually having much effect, since nerf guns still sell wildly.

You'd be surprised. Definitely lots of middle-class parents out there who won't let their kids play with toy guns. And nerf guns sell well because they don't look anything like real guns. Try finding a plastic replica M-16 in a store these days. Strangely, a lot of the parents who won't allow toy guns don't seem to mind violent video games, as long as they don't feature realistic gunplay.

Still, I don't see what this has to do with D&D. If anything, elves with swords are a lot more tolerable to the parents concerned about violence than GI Joe or even Clone Troopers with automatic weapons.

Quote from: dragoner;755159As far as the "no war toys" it is a thing

Yeah, the academic/atheist house I mentioned has a general rule against toy guns... but not guns in videogames or other entertainments. There are lots of swords around though.

I'm curious how the recent news about girls trying to sacrifice their friend to Slender Man is going to go down...

Quote from: dragoner;755120So kids cartoons are getting violent again? Huh, because I noticed in the 90's a definite trend away from violence.

To illustrate how long ago the 90s were, the freshmen who just became sophomores in high school this week? Were the last crop of freshmen that will ever have been born in the 1990s.

Quote from: mcbobbo;755124...and my prior example of the Sam and Cat star demonstrates modern moral panic.  Or at least anticipation of it.

Moral panics about sex and nudity, on the other hand, have been the great American pastime longer than any of the members of this board have been alive.

QuoteMoral panics about sex and nudity, on the other hand, have been the great American pastime longer than any of the members of this board have been alive.

Except Old Geezer...maybe.:D

Quote from: Simlasa;755163I'm curious how the recent news about girls trying to sacrifice their friend to Slender Man is going to go down...

Wait, what?

Quote from: dragoner;755173Wait, what?

Here's a link to the story on ABCNews: http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/12-year-wisconsin-girls-stab-friend-19-times-23959855

It's just the sort of thing to start some hysterics about 'The Internet', Creepypasta and maybe even Minecraft.

And that's why there are warnings on urinal cakes to not eat them.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;755179And that's why there are warnings on urinal cakes to not eat them.

Yup.
Of course, this sort of thing NEVER happened before 'The Internet'...

Quote from: Simlasa;755176Here's a link to the story on ABCNews: http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/12-year-wisconsin-girls-stab-friend-19-times-23959855

It's just the sort of thing to start some hysterics about 'The Internet', Creepypasta and maybe even Minecraft.

Yeah, looks like the police are blaming the internet. Bleh

Quote from: dragoner;755125Bing? http://www.bing.com/search?q=no+war+toys+for+children&qs=AS&sk=AS1&pq=no+war+toys&sc=2-11&sp=2&FORM=QBRE&cvid=5a74c154997640b7a1a28760ff384048 it is a fairly common thing now when you do charity drives, that they ask for no war toys.

Reasonably sure part of that is the uncomfortable parallels with current events, and I can imagine both hawks and doves sympathising with the idea that present-day warfare is a serious thing which should be dealt with soberly rather than being trivialised by turning it into a garish source of kids' toys.

I don't see that D&D would be seen as a war toy though.

Quote from: Warthur;755280Reasonably sure part of that is the uncomfortable parallels with current events, and I can imagine both hawks and doves sympathising with the idea that present-day warfare is a serious thing which should be dealt with soberly rather than being trivialised by turning it into a garish source of kids' toys.

I don't see that D&D would be seen as a war toy though.

It is about violence, iirc, it is hippy-dippy stuff from the 60-70's, where it started, and as such, more prevalent in California; though I'm sure the war has given it impetus. Given the current popularity of the Hobbit, I wonder why there isn't a Hobbit cartoon either?

Quote from: dragoner;755285It is about violence, iirc, it is hippy-dippy stuff from the 60-70's, where it started, and as such, more prevalent in California; though I'm sure the war has given it impetus. Given the current popularity of the Hobbit, I wonder why there isn't a Hobbit cartoon either?

Because 1) what the fuck would it even be about, 2) there may very well be rights issues, 3) it's not the 80s where every popular movie needs a cartoon spinoff.

And Warthur's right, it is about modern warfare being a serious thing they don't wish to trivialize. My family's donated foam swords and the like by the armful to those drives and they totally accept them. Even the occasional bucket of green army men.

Back aboard the on-topic express.

Quote from: One Horse Town;755296Back aboard the on-topic express.

What's left to discuss on this topic?  Some people feel like it's a cardinal sin to not have chargen rules in the starter set, some think it's no big deal it isn't there, pretty much everyone hopes there would be.

That's pretty much it.  Might as well close the thread since I think the horse has been beaten most completely.

"Who's thread?"
"Thread's dead."

Quote from: Sacrosanct;755297What's left to discuss on this topic?  Some people feel like you are a filthy dirty denner to have chargen rules in the starter set, some think it's no big deal if it is there, pretty much everyone hopes there would be and I, 5acrosanct, went full retard about it.

That's pretty much it.  Might as well close the thread since I think the horse has been beaten most completely.

Fixed your typo.

RPGSite the gift that keeps on giving. :rolleyes:

Quote from: LibraryLass;755292Because 1) what the fuck would it even be about, 2) there may very well be rights issues, 3) it's not the 80s where every popular movie needs a cartoon spinoff.

There are most definitely rights issues.

The Tolkien estate is very, very unhappy about the terms ol' JRR signed away the movie rights under and are generally seen to be watching like hawks for any opportunity to declare breach of contract and swipe back the rights. Any cartoon would pretty much have to be based on the film licence because the Tolkien estate is hostile in general to derivative works, any work derived from the film licence needs to be pored over by lawyers with a fine toothcomb to avoid anything which could open the way to the Tolkien estate suing.

Quote from: Warthur;755396There are most definitely rights issues.

The Tolkien estate is very, very unhappy about the terms ol' JRR signed away the movie rights under and are generally seen to be watching like hawks for any opportunity to declare breach of contract and swipe back the rights. Any cartoon would pretty much have to be based on the film licence because the Tolkien estate is hostile in general to derivative works, any work derived from the film licence needs to be pored over by lawyers with a fine toothcomb to avoid anything which could open the way to the Tolkien estate suing.

See. Perfect example of why they should have gone with character creation instead of pregens... :rolleyes:

aheh.

Well we know character creation isnt in the starter. Its over in Basic. Fits with the design goal.
We also know the pregens are not open ended for the player to name and flesh out. They come with their own backgrounds and such, probably named too at this rate.

That just leaves the adventure to wonder about.

Quote from: Marleycat;754121He really did mention that he was frustrated about the order in which things were being leaked like it was ass backwards or somesuch but couldn't say what they aren't leaking because of the NDA. And now with knowing all that we know now he was completely correct.

Indeed, I said it several times in several places.  I'll say it again now. And I think that whatever you think about how significant the Basic PDF is (and I continue to say its extremely significant), you can probably agree with me about that statement.

Quote from: Simlasa;754402The real problem there is the '48 pages of feats'... on top of skills and special class abilities and whatnot. Is 5e still going to have all that crap to wade through?

The Basic D&D game won't.

Quote from: RPGPundit;756184The Basic D&D game won't.

Just a thought given with all that we know currently...you could add the 8 other classes without any fuss under BASIC if you wanted. Maybe not certain subclasses of course like the maneuver fighter or the chaos sorcerer...the obvious stuff. No feats no stat adds..heck even I showed how to make the magic system for a wizards pure vancian in 3 seconds on another thread today.

The reason why I'm all in is..

1) Even I can alter/ Retro con huge swaths of the game to my preferences right now
2) It's just screams 2e's pick and choose then play ethos to me
3) The DMG basically sounds like FantasyCraft to me (a tinkerer's dream 3e game)

Quote from: Marleycat;756188The reason why I'm all in is..

1) Even I can alter/ Retro con huge swaths of the game to my preferences right now

That's a huge part of the appeal to me, too.

Quote from: RPGPundit;758434That's a huge part of the appeal to me, too.

It's a 2e/NWoD game thing....yeah I know you think they are story games but they are seriously configurable to your vision as long as you ignore the outside voices.:)

Quote from: Marleycat;758463It's a 2e/NWoD game thing....yeah I know you think they are story games but they are seriously configurable to your vision as long as you ignore the outside voices.:)

Um, well, its certainly nothing invented by either 2e or NWoD.  As dozens and dozens of OSR games have shown, early-edition D&D is incredibly configurable.

Quote from: RPGPundit;758990Um, well, its certainly nothing invented by either 2e or NWoD.  As dozens and dozens of OSR games have shown, early-edition D&D is incredibly configurable.

I can only cite games I actually play on a regular basis but I see no reason to disagree with your view. To me 1/2e are basically interchangeable and I never played anything before 1e. Read them? Yes. I even have a copy of Moldvay.