Quote from: dragoner;752697Who is talking about doing away with chargen? If keeping it out of the starter box, keeps the needle-dicks at bay, it's a good thing, imo. But there is an easily findable, pdf? That makes me happy, esp if I want to play.

The needle-dicks will always find a way. Hide the chargen from them and they'll just obsess about some other facet.

Quote from: Saplatt;752684People who like the game can then get the character generation rules, and a bunch of other stuff for free - even if they didn't buy the game - even if they just had a friend DM it for them.

And what I'm hearing here is that "Yes, but dammit, they should still have included chargen rules, because that's a big fun part of the game, and people aren't going to be able to experience that without taking the additional step of visiting the website, and so they'll never know what they are missing.

I said it a couple of days ago and it bears repeating. I think it would be a good move for WOTC to take what they are giving away and print a book that could fit in the starter set. Sell it along side the starter set. I don't think too many would complain about paying $40 or so for a complete BASIC game.

QuoteBut it seems to me that if the basic game experience sucks, the best chargen in the world isn't going to save it. On the other hand, if the quick start experience is fun, then its a pretty good bet that one or more people in a gaming group is going to take the next step, especially if the game directs them to it.

I agree though I believe chargen is an important part of the learning process. How many might have a bad experience because they don't understand what is on their sheet. The act of creating a character may help some to understand how some of the rules work.

As for those that play it and love it. What the hell is going to happen when they go from the starter set where everything is done for you to the core rulebook and now have to learn how to do everything themselves with a lot more options to choose from. I am a firm believer in the previous Basic/Advanced design, and I don't see any Basic with the Starter set. I foresee a pay-for-preview and a steep learning curve to get into the game proper.

Granted, We don't know what is actually in the starter set. They may have character generation in all but name. I just know that for the few I introduced to our hobby, that first 1/2 session or so (one lunch period for some) of generating their characters and explaining what the numbers on the sheet meant taught them a lot about the game. Plus most were invested in those characters--the roleplaying seemed to come naturally for most.

Quote from: Benoist;752703I love it how now having two paragraphs explaining how to roll ability scores, choose a race and a class for yourself, along with a couple of lines explaining the basics for each now just means you are a filthy charop denner who can't live without options. So now, it's either (A) play with the pregens WotC gives you already, or (B) you must be a denner.

That is awesome. *golf clap*

Or it is a great example of binary thinking and its limitations.

Quote from: Benoist;752703I love it how now having two paragraphs explaining how to roll ability scores, choose a race and a class for yourself, along with a couple of lines explaining the basics for each now just means you are a filthy charop denner who can't live without options. So now, it's either (A) play with the pregens WotC gives you already, or (B) you must be a denner.

That is awesome. *golf clap*

Get the fuck off your high horse. You have a computer correct? I bet everybody you want to send the set has internet access right? Even I have that!

Quote from: Simlasa;752704The needle-dicks will always find a way. Hide the chargen from them and they'll just obsess about some other facet.

True, and that is a depressing thought.

The PDFs threaten our noble traditional way of of life!

Quote from: Marleycat;752707Get the fuck off your high horse. You have a computer correct? I bet everybody you want to send the set has internet access right? Even I have that!

But then is he a dirty charop denner or someone who completely lacks imagination or drive? According to Sacrosanct, it is one or the other.

Quote from: Marleycat;752701How do you accomplish that?

1. Lighter rules
2. DM control
3. Less emphasis on white room balance
4. Less options in the baseline iteration of the game

The KISS principal (keep it simple stupid).

Sure. I just don't think #4 requires you to completely remove chargen... just give basic core options (basic races, classes, short list of spells and equipment) and make it clear more (classes, races, lots more equipment and spells) will be available in the full game.

Quote from: Simlasa;752711Sure. I just don't #4 requires you to completely remove chargen... just give basic core options (basic races, classes, short list of spells and equipment) and make it clear more (classes, races, lots more equipment and spells) will be available in the full game.

No, this is for those who can't role play their way out of a paper bag, those newbs who don't have the brains to come up with char gen themselves when they don't even yet know what that is, or for us charop denners who can't live without optimizing characters! This is madness, we must have just pregens, otherwise the kids' brains will explode in utter confusion!

Quote from: JasperAK;752705As for those that play it and love it. What the hell is going to happen when they go from the starter set where everything is done for you to the core rulebook and now have to learn how to do everything themselves with a lot more options to choose from.

See, that's what I was getting at earlier... that the DIY aspects of the game not being made apparent from the get go sets up a mindset that will not want chargen at all, it will want more pre-gens... OFFICIAL pregens tailored for OFFICIAL adventures. So yeah, "You can download those chargen rules if you want them and feel up to that level of advanced work... OR just buy this adventure over here that has a whole new set of cool new pre-gens for you, no need put in all that work making your own characters and adventures when we've made them for you!"

Quote from: Benoist;752712No, this is for those who can't role play their way out of a paper bag, those newbs who don't have the brains to come up with char gen themselves when they don't even yet know what that is, or for us charop denners who can't live without optimizing characters! This is madness, we must have just pregens, otherwise the kids' brains will explode in utter confusion!

Can you imagine the rejection that would happen if kids had to create their own characters? Nobody would ever play RPGs at all! They would be considered too hard and then the kids would all go back to their smartphones and their Flappy Birds and Minecraft! It would be the end!

I just asked my 11 year old daughter, the age that is right in the supposed wheelhouse of this boxed set, if she knew what a PDF was. She got a funny look on her face and said "no". She's got a iPod Touch, uses a Kindle Fire regularly, and also knows how to use a laptop. I think the next time I pick her up from her school I'll conduct an unscientific poll and see how many of her 10-12 year old schoolmates know as well. I have a feeling I know what the majority will say.

Quote from: jeff37923;752710But then is he a dirty charop denner or someone who completely lacks imagination or drive? According to Sacrosanct, it is one or the other.

Well Sacrosanct overstated it at worst and Benoist overreacted as usual.

Quote from: jeff37923;752715Can you imagine the rejection that would happen if kids had to create their own characters? Nobody would ever play RPGs at all! They would be considered too hard and then the kids would all go back to their smartphones and their Flappy Birds and Minecraft! It would be the end!

I don't know how we could even start playing with these confusing boxed sets ourselves. It was some kind of miracle despite the brokenness that was the basic D&D set I suppose. All praise WotC, for they fixed the entry to the game at last! No more confusion, no more of that silly "choice" people keep babbling about in role playing games. This is for charop'ers. To the bat mobile, on to the tracks of Tyranny of the Dragons. I can't wait to find out how it ends. The finale must be awesome, with the opportunity to kill Tiamat herself, and see the movie based on that storyline in the theater right after! I hope my dwarf fighter pregen makes it into the video game too.

The old red boxes can do no wrong. If character generation was in those, dammit, it should be in this one.