Quote from: Endless Flight;754729If they are, they aren't doing a good job advertising. I haven't seen any ads on any kids channels (I see what my daughter watches on TV) and I haven't seen any ads in any comic books lately (D&D used to have tons of ads back in the day). Even if it is coming out in July, you need to get people excited ahead of time.

Can't say I disagree honestly.

Quote from: kythri;754734So, if we go back to what I said, the single sentence needed to explain what "#d#" is, that's too hard for you?  Really?

Because it's not like that notation is exclusive to chargen.

I don't expect people to know what "#d#" is inherently.  I would expect anyone who isn't a drooling idiot to pretty damned quickly grasp that.

It's not a tough concept, and if people are holding that up as an example of a barrier to entry, then, God help this hobby.

This all needs to be put back in context

bionicjellyfish suggested they could have fit a condensed chargen into a sidebar in the main book.
I outlined an opionion that this would not serve a useful purpose as the people the starter set is aimed at would not be experienced roleplayers and so would really need a full explanation of the process and details. As is going to be provided in the free basic rules. I highlighted this by taking the bionicjellyfish's example text and pointing out it contained a number of terms that we all find entirely clear but which to a non roleplayer might be at best cryptic and at worse unitelligible.

Jeff took umbrage with this for some reason, not sure why as it seems fairly logical to me, and for some reason thought I was saying kids don't know what dice are (well he obviously didn't really think that but he had been caught out by jumping into an argument without reading the actual detail and he needed to grasp at a thing to deflect).

I went on to point out that there are a number of terms of which *d* is a classic example that beginers need to be introduced to and that you probably don't want to use in your introduction to chargen for 10 year olds who have no idea what rpgs are.

All this seems quite logical as is your assertion that terminology like *d* needs to be explained to new players.

This whole argument is really quite strange.

We seem to be arguing that the D&D 5e box set won't be the same as other old starter sets (which contained chargen amongst other things). Which is perfectly true and no one disagrees with, so why argue.

The point is that WotC don't intend it to be that . That itch they have scratched with the decision to make Basic 5e free to download and use.
The new "Starter Set' is trying to do a different thing and introduce new players to the game in a new way.

Will it work? No idea
Will 5e be a good game or a pile of crap? no idea
Did it need to contain Chargen? well apparently not
Can a game without Chargen be a roleplaying game? As I pointed out a marvel superhero game where you had to play an established marvel hero through a pregen would be a real RPG as would numerous other games set in exisiting fictional worlds with a set roster of characters.
Would such a game be any good? no idea

I for one an not supporting 5e. It might be good it might not you can't really tell until its released. I am merely looking logically at the available facts and drawing a reasoned conclusion.

Quote from: jeff37923;754686Amusing, didn't the 4E fans crow like this while that version was being rolled out?

See, I'm not just talking about D&D Next. Wizbros will do whatever they want with the game and the audience has no real input. I've been talking about RPGs in general for awhile now.

Given the playtest was downloaded something like 100,000+ plus times, and was done in conjunction with polling on the same scale, there's been more audience input on D&D 5E than any other iteration of the game. That doesn't mean it will be a great game, or one that you will like. But recognizing a lot of other people may legitimately like something you personally dislike is the first step to letting go of edition-rage.

Quote from: Endless Flight;754729If they are, they aren't doing a good job advertising. I haven't seen any ads on any kids channels (I see what my daughter watches on TV) and I haven't seen any ads in any comic books lately (D&D used to have tons of ads back in the day). Even if it is coming out in July, you need to get people excited ahead of time.

Why is TV advertising some sort of hallmark of a proper advertising campaign? I don't think I've ever seen a D&D commercial. Ever see a commercial for Settlers of Catan? I haven't either. And it has only sold about 20 million copies. TV advertising on anything but a massive $$$$ scale is going the way of the dodo anyway. Frankly, I'd be more worried about the savvy of WotC if they did blow millions on a TV spot and air time.

Quote from: kythri;754723What's your point with this?

I mean, is the single sentence explanation of the "#d#" notation something that's seriously hard for new gamers to grasp?

I guess everyone who managed to play RPGs for the last 40 years is a genius, because I've never heard of anyone who couldn't understand 4d6 is 4 six-sided dice when you tell them, once.

Quote from: Simlasa;754544Hypothetical:
A new RPG comes out... it has no chargen at all. Just pregens. There are no other books planned, ever (though they will release packs of new pregens occasionally).
You can only play it with pregens unless you want to backwards engineer how the writers made the pregens... make up homerules.
All else being good... would this bother you?
Would you argue with people who were bothered by it?
Would you consider it a 'complete' RPG?

Of course... a couple of you have already owned up to not liking chargen anyway... but for the others?

EDIT: No, I am not equating this not-real game to 5e or it's 'Starter'

Additional question paramiter...

What if the pregen was left blank for name and gender?
What if the pregen was a fully fleshed out character with their own name, ideas and goals?

For me I view it thusly because I've done stage acting.

If the pregen is its own character and I have zero input in this then I am Role-Acting. I am acting out a character. This could be Spiderman, Drizzt, Johan, etc.

If I can at least define the name and gender then it falls to Role-Playing since Ive at least got a little input in it. Moreso if I can actually choose which pregen to use. Simmilar to how Shadowrun had the Archetypes you could choose.

And THAT is what the Starter pregens should have been called. Archetypes, Templates, whatever.

Quote from: CRKrueger;754760I guess everyone who managed to play RPGs for the last 40 years is a genius, because I've never heard of anyone who couldn't understand 4d6 is 4 six-sided dice when you tell them, once.

Except...
1. That wasn't what he said he said 4d6 drop 1. Or something worse like the Monster Manual with stat blocks.
2. You aren't there to explain.

4d6 drop 1? What? (as I lose interest because I want to play Zena or Gabrielle already) move it along to the action you old person. Just how hard is "let's play" a concept to grasp? Especially given none of you are the target audience. Not one. Unless you decide to DM it?  Or can't be arsed to print out the free rules? Seriously?

For the mentally impaired those pregens are classic archetypes does that help?

Quote from: Sacrosanct;754635It's like saying Final Fantasy for the Super NES isn't a video game RPG, but Eye of the Beholder is, based solely on the fact that you can spend time creating a custom party in EotB and you can't in FF.

Thats because FF is more like an interactive movie, especially in the later editions, than an RPG. So it is a poor example.

Better example might be the like perhaps the Elder Scrolls games where you essentially are handed a pregen that you custom the looks of.

Quote from: Omega;754766Thats because FF is more like an interactive movie, especially in the later editions, than an RPG. So it is a poor example.

Better example might be the like perhaps the Elder Scrolls games where you essentially are handed a pregen that you custom the looks of.

that's why I specifically compared the snes ff vs the snes eotb.

Quote from: Marleycat;754748That would be just the ticket to core brand status end of story.

Apparently Hasbro is still locking horns with Solomon since he is blockading any new D&D movies and claiming that extends to TV, not sure if hes including cartoons. But till that mess is cleared seems we arent getting any new Live action D&D movies/TV series that arent from Solomon. And Book of Vile Darkness was pretty bad overall.

Quote from: Mistwell;754744Name me a product targeted at kids that Hasbro has advertised 2 months in advance of it even coming out.

I wouldn't be surprised if they waited until Christmas to advertise it.  That's when they would get the most bang for their buck.

Hasbro? Various. They have advertisements out fairly regularly. Was planning a movie line but thats falling apart fast.

WOTC? That is a totally different matter. Aside from the Kaijudo cartoon series their advertising side is about nil. WOTCs marketing branch is notoriously awful.

Quote from: Omega;754772Hasbro? Various. They have advertisements out fairly regularly.

For a product 2 months in advance of it's first release?

No, no they do not.  Name one.

Quote from: Omega;754770Apparently Hasbro is still locking horns with Solomon since he is blockading any new D&D movies and claiming that extends to TV, not sure if hes including cartoons. But till that mess is cleared seems we arent getting any new Live action D&D movies/TV series that arent from Solomon. And Book of Vile Darkness was pretty bad overall.

I agree about BoVD. And the rest just blows chunks.

Even the Star Trek cartoon was awesomesauce.

Quote from: Haffrung;754757But recognizing a lot of other people may legitimately like something you personally dislike is the first step to letting go of edition-rage.

Another first step is taking off the blinders that see any possible criticism or negative statement about something that even isn't out yet as edition rage.

Quote from: jeff37923;754779Another first step is taking off the blinders that see any possible criticism or negative statement about something that even isn't out yet as edition rage.

I wanted to make a snide comment about this but the problem is you're right. And LibraryLass is awesome (on completely unrelated note) she nailed it hardcore. See what boredom does to me?

Quote from: Marleycat;754762Except...
1. That wasn't what he said he said 4d6 drop 1. Or something worse like the Monster Manual with stat blocks.
2. You aren't there to explain.

4d6 drop 1? What? (as I lose interest because I want to play Zena or Gabrielle already) move it along to the action you old person. Just how hard is "let's play" a concept to grasp? Especially given none of you are the target audience. Not one. Unless you decide to DM it?  Or can't be arsed to print out the free rules? Seriously?

For the mentally impaired those pregens are classic archetypes does that help?

You need to take a chill pill and read what was posted by the individual instead of wading into the thread swinging at everything like a drunk at a Piñata party.

Oh and btw, "Roll 4 six-sided dice and count the highest 3." 10 years old we're talking about a 4th or 5th grader.  

Focused on pick up and play, is a valid argument.  All children have morphed into special needs math skills candidates simply to justify the Starter Set is not.