Quote from: Marleycat;754550It's fine I actually understood your post upthread and your correction of my misspelled word. So I was jabbing you for it, because you didn't embarrass me you just were jabbing me with humor about it. That's what friends do right?

Yeah, I know, as I said, 5acrosanct has me questioning the nature of the human mind, sorry.

Quote from: Mistwell;754561No I am talking about a hypothetical game that always uses the same array.  So all healers use the same spread of ability scores (the Healer array), all warriors the same (Warrior array), etc.. So the game includes say 4 races and 4 classes, and comes with all 16 variations of those (name is blank, description is blank, but race and class and ability scores and fixed hit points and fixed saves), and the array is the same based on the class (modified by the race), so you're not choosing ability scores nor rolling for them.

We know that this is NOT going to be the case with 5e, and has not been the case for really any other RPG in existence, so what's the point?  It's not to try and somehow redefine the Starter Set as a complete RPG, because you understand it's whole point is not to be a complete RPG.

In answer to your question though, it's more like Warhammer Quest.

Quote from: jibbajibba;754560Yes it might be a complete RPG.
Take the example I quoted way back where you have a Marvel superhero game and you have to play a marvel hero. Big book of pregens and more released over time.

This is a complete RPG.

It might not be a great RPG and I can see lots of people complaining but its a complete RPG.

I also refer you to what the aim of the "Starter Set" is which is not a complete game as that is the Basic set which is free.

A lot of people accused Marvel Heroic of being this because the game didn't have a "point based" style chargen. It was just "write down what you think the character you imagine in your head would have and get your GM to approve it". Honestly that worked pretty well though.

But honestly, you could totally play the game only ever using pregens and not really lose anything at all, it just depends on what you WANT to do.

Quote from: Mistwell;754561No I am talking about a hypothetical game that always uses the same array.  So all healers use the same spread of ability scores (the Healer array), all warriors the same (Warrior array), etc.. So the game includes say 4 races and 4 classes, and comes with all 16 variations of those (name is blank, description is blank, but race and class and ability scores and fixed hit points and fixed saves), and the array is the same based on the class (modified by the race), so you're not choosing ability scores nor rolling for them.

That's a pregen in my book. You can roleplay it and play in a RPG with it but it's not the full deal. You need to let ME roll for you and then it's the full monty. I'll even do Dark Sun methods and watch you cry when you see what stats are possible without array or point buy. Interesting though I am awesome with lifepath, point buy, array and scheme and such mixes.

Warhammer, Onyx Path, Neliphim, Kult, GURPS, Shadowrun, Rolemaster, any damn game I don't have to roll dice to generate a character wholesale are my bitch.

Quote from: CRKrueger;754563Did anyone ever tell you you're nowhere near as clever as you think you are, especially when you think you're setting a "gotcha" trap a 2 year old could see through?

For your point to be true then the sum total of 5e chargen must be as you describe.  If there is no allocation of attributes, but ONLY a mandatory array, AND there is no variance in hps, all are max AND there is no choice of using anything OTHER THAN your predetermined adventuring kit there being NO choice in the matter, then of course picking a pregen amounts to the same thing.

Is your contention that the 48 page pdf contains only such restrained options?   Please be stupid enough to say yes.

this is no gotcha.  It's a simple question.  I'm only going by what you actually said.  You said that in order to get a complete RPG experience, you have to have chargen, and that an RPG without chargen is not complete.  These are general statements about rpgs.  So I'm asking you, what do you consider chargen?

so far all you've done is accuse others of using fallacies while being extremely liberal in their use yourself.  And you don't have a clue what my "point" is, because your retort here has nothing to do with what I actually said

Quote from: CRKrueger;754565Yeah, I know, as I said, 5acrosanct has me questioning the nature of the human mind, sorry.

5acrosanct just needs to go get laid more often.

Ok, sure I'll bite.  I'll pretend for a minute that no matter what I write you won't attempt to turn a word or sub phrase into an "AHA!"  Why not, I enjoy  roleplaying in fantasy games, so I can pretend the most ludicrous and unlikely situations.

Simply speaking, Character Generation has to have a means of generating characters, not selecting one that has been pre-generated.  What meets the threshold of generation?  Does every single aspect of the character, including history, backstory, complexion and comparative testicle height need to be determined? No.  However, here are some obvious examples of Chargen.

WFRP1 - Choose or roll race, Roll Profile, determine racial abilities, determine age, choose alignment, determine fate, determine career, determine extra skills, determine mandatory skills, determine equipment, choose free advance.

DCC - Roll ability scores, determine 0-level occupation, choose an alignment, purchase equipment, see if you survive to first level.

Here's a game that doesn't have CharGen.

Warhammer Quest - Choose Pregen Card.  Now some character templates in WHQ included random elements such as pick from a deck for spells.  Having a randomizer for equipment, or even only for wounds, is not chargen.

I really can't wait for the "not-springing" of the trap.

Quote from: jeff37923;7545715acrosanct just needs to go get laid more often.

Now that's just MEAN. It might not even be factual sir.
.

I know this is just a personal anecdote but I found that even when I was running 1st or 2nd ed games for new players it was eaiser to just hand them a pregen and let them worry about filling out name and gender. I had plenty of people whom I was teaching the game to lose interest right away at character creation. It just got worse with 3rd ed and while I never dm'd 4th ed I remember practically giving up when I first tried to build a character and I'm one of those people that actually liked making characters just for fun.

That said, had I been making the starter set, I probably would have included simple chargen in a sidebar in the rule book. Probably described it as wanting to customize a pregen character so that some of the basics of chargen are introduced at least. It could even be something like "Pick archetype, roll 4d6 discard lowest, select skills, select gear, go." and be more limited than even basic chargen, so as to ease players who do get discouraged by that part of the game into it easier.

Quote from: Bionicspacejellyfish;754610I know this is just a personal anecdote but I found that even when I was running 1st or 2nd ed games for new players it was eaiser to just hand them a pregen and let them worry about filling out name and gender. I had plenty of people whom I was teaching the game to lose interest right away at character creation. It just got worse with 3rd ed and while I never dm'd 4th ed I remember practically giving up when I first tried to build a character and I'm one of those people that actually liked making characters just for fun.

That said, had I been making the starter set, I probably would have included simple chargen in a sidebar in the rule book. Probably described it as wanting to customize a pregen character so that some of the basics of chargen are introduced at least. It could even be something like "Pick archetype, roll 4d6 discard lowest, select skills, select gear, go." and be more limited than even basic chargen, so as to ease players who do get discouraged by that part of the game into it easier.

I would have included a player book 50 pages with chargen etc and I would have sold it separate to a starter set and included it to encourage all the players to buy it.
Having said that WotC have quite undermined that position by giving said book away for free.

Your reduced character generation I fears falls between two schools. The experienced players don't need rules so light so to them its wasted copy. The new players, the one the start set is aimed to bring in, need a fully fleshed out character generation guide. The won't be able to make head nor tail of "Pick archetype, roll 4d6 discard lowest, select skills, select gear, go." They may not even know what 4d6 is after all.

Quote from: jibbajibba;754614Your reduced character generation I fears falls between two schools. The experienced players don't need rules so light so to them its wasted copy. The new players, the one the start set is aimed to bring in, need a fully fleshed out character generation guide.

You are full of more shit than a Christmas turkey.

Quote from: jibbajibba;754614The won't be able to make head nor tail of "Pick archetype, roll 4d6 discard lowest, select skills, select gear, go." They may not even know what 4d6 is after all.

Over 40 years of history of the game proves you wrong.

People, start using your brains. Looking at the Holmes version of Basic D&D, character generation takes up 13 pages and could be reduced to 12 pages with some judicious editing (Why are the Wandering Monster tables in chargen?). That page count includes classes, stats, equipment, saves, attack rolls, and spells - so it could probably be reduced even further.

Now, jibba, are you saying that between 1974 and 2014, humanity just got incredibly less intelligent? So much so that people cannot read and comprehend instructions? Because if so, role-playing games as a hobby are doomed.

Quote from: jeff37923;754626You are full of more shit than a Christmas turkey.



Over 40 years of history of the game proves you wrong.

People, start using your brains. Looking at the Moldvay version of Basic D&D, character generation takes up 13 pages and could be reduced to 12 pages with some judicious editing (Why are the Wandering Monster tables in chargen?). That page count includes classes, stats, equipment, saves, attack rolls, and spells - so it could probably be reduced even further.

Now, jibba, are you saying that between 1974 and 2014, humanity just got incredibly less intelligent? So much so that people cannot read and comprehend instructions? Because if so, role-playing games as a hobby are doomed.

Um..... no I am saying putting a character generation system in a Side bar and basically summing the whole deal up in a paragraph and a table of backgrounds is too light weight for a bunch of kids that have never played an RPG.
You did read the post I was referencing right the one that stated ...

Quote...had I been making the starter set, I probably would have included simple chargen in a sidebar in the rule book. Probably described it as wanting to customize a pregen character so that some of the basics of chargen are introduced at least. It could even be something like "Pick archetype, roll 4d6 discard lowest, select skills, select gear, go." and be more limited than even basic chargen, so as to ease players who do get discouraged by that part of the game into it easier.

Does that sound like a suggestion that they included a 13 or 14 page character generation system?

As I stated I would have included a 50 page Players book with char gen, spells, etc etc I would have upped the price of the start set to $29:99 and I would have sold the player book along side at $9:99 just for players.
However, WotC have bypassed the need for that by giving a full game away for free.
The point is the Starter Set is not trying to replicate Menzer or Moldvay it's doing something new something different. It's creating an introductory set that sits along side the full basic game (which you can get for free).

Quote from: jibbajibba;754628Um..... no I am saying putting a character generation system in a Side bar and basically summing the whole deal up in a paragraph and a table of backgrounds is too light weight for a bunch of kids that have never played an RPG.
You did read the post I was referencing right the one that stated ...

I did. Your problem was that you assumed a single sidebar.  Why not sidebars on each relevant page? Plenty of space then.

Quote from: CRKrueger;754566We know that this is NOT going to be the case with 5e, and has not been the case for really any other RPG in existence, so what's the point?  It's not to try and somehow redefine the Starter Set as a complete RPG, because you understand it's whole point is not to be a complete RPG.

In answer to your question though, it's more like Warhammer Quest.

I didn't say or imply it's 5e.  We're talking about what the fine lines are between "a full game" and "not a full game".  Each distinction leads to the next set of questions, and eventually that may help explain people's opinions regarding 5e.  This is often how discourse works. If you don't want to talk about it, nobody is twisting your arm to do so.  But stop bitching that people are talking about things you don't want to talk about.

Quote from: Marleycat;754568That's a pregen in my book.

So if I can name an RPG that does that, though obviously I changed what the components are (they may not be named class and race and hit points and saves and ability scores, for example), then you would say it's not an RPG? Is that because you don't roll for things, and it's pre-assigned based on which of 16 things you choose?