The only bizarro thing is you not comprehending that rolling 3d6 in order, picking fighter, rolling hit points and gold and picking equipment is chargen.  It's bizarro because you didn't disagree with the point that chargen is not charop, but yet here you are now blathering the same fallacy that full-blown 3.5 charop is the definition of chargen, which it clearly isn't.

The even more bizarro thing is that if you actually bothered to read my posts instead of "whargarble", you'd find that I've said it's a pretty bold and interesting plan WotC has decided on.

Bold as it is, no amount of frothing denial on your part is ever going to make calling the Starter Box a complete RPG sound like anything other then raving lunacy from a fanatic.  The Starter Box isn't meant to be a complete RPG, that's Basic's job.  Basic fixes all things, especially if they POD it.  It's unfortunate that you don't even realize that Basic itself vaporized all criticisms against the Starter Set and you think you have to continue making yourself look like an absolute idiot to defend it.

The increasing tedium is only offset by the growing humor that you think you're actually correct (unlikely) or that you're actually putting up any form of logical defense, both of which are absolutely hilarious.

Quote from: Marleycat;754535Now do you see why I qualified my agreement with the creveats of general terms and no PEDENTRY CKrueger?

Are you accusing Sacrosanct of Pedantry also in his response?  I'm not responsible for his logorrhea.

Are you suggesting that by quadrupling down on the fallacies that charop equals chargen or that roleplaying a pregen is the complete roleplaying game experience that he's somehow invalidated my points?  Well, sorry, but he hasn't.

He's foaming against strawmen he's created by attacking two of my points, not realizing in his ignorance or rage that the other four points invalidated his arguments before he began typing.

There are no logic traps in what I wrote, simple facts.  Perhaps this is easier?

• If the Starter Box was a complete RPG, there would be no need for the pregen pdf.
• If the Starter Box plus pregen was meant to be the core of 5e, there would be no need for Basic.
• If Basic was the complete 5e experience, there would be no need for the 3 hardbound books.

From the very beginning, Mearls has wanted to target different types of players, now they're doing do with a very diverse spread of products designed to get as many gamers under the D&D umbrella as possible.  As I said, a bold plan.  However, in addressing specific markets with different products, that does in fact mean different products are different, right?

The Starter Box is a focused experience, meant to be pick up and play, BAM!

As a result, it is by design meant to be incomplete, the conscious decision was to remove chargen to an optional pdf.  Whatever the reason, it was done.

So by spending pages of posts arguing over whether chargen is a necessary component of the RPG experience, the correct answer would have been...

"Yeah genius, the Starter Set doesn't contain chargen, that's the fucking point of the damn thing, to grab PCs and go."  

However, making that argument takes someone who is capable of accepting criticism for something they like or capable of saying they were wrong or maybe went off the deep end a bit.

Hypothetical:
A new RPG comes out... it has no chargen at all. Just pregens. There are no other books planned, ever (though they will release packs of new pregens occasionally).
You can only play it with pregens unless you want to backwards engineer how the writers made the pregens... make up homerules.
All else being good... would this bother you?
Would you argue with people who were bothered by it?
Would you consider it a 'complete' RPG?

Of course... a couple of you have already owned up to not liking chargen anyway... but for the others?

EDIT: No, I am not equating this not-real game to 5e or it's 'Starter'

No I was only accusing Sacrosanct of pedantry. I was capitalizing and bolding the word as a snark to you. A guy I consider a friend and usually agree with.

Quote from: Simlasa;754544A new RPG comes out... it has no chargen at all. Just pregens. There are no other books planned, ever (though they will release packs of new pregens occasionally). You can only play it with pregens unless you want to backwards engineer how the writers made the pregens... make up homerules.
All else being good... would this bother you?
Would you consider it a 'complete' RPG?

Of course... a couple of you have already owned up to not liking chargen anyway... but for the others?

Just so we get the inevitable strawman out of the way, saying that "This isn't the same because the Starter Set has a pdf." isn't an invalidation of his question, it's an evasion through logical fallacy.

Quote from: Marleycat;754545No I was only accusing Sacrosanct of pedantry. I was capitalizing and bolding the word as a snark to you. A guy I consider a friend and usually agree with.

Ok then, my apologies, Sacrosanct has me questioning people's sanity.  Unlike him, I'm capable of admitting I went off the deep end a bit in response to you, however, as a response, my points are valid.

Quote from: Simlasa;754544A new RPG comes out... it has no chargen at all. Just pregens. There are no other books planned, ever (though they will release packs of new pregens occasionally). You can only play it with pregens unless you want to backwards engineer how the writers made the pregens... make up homerules.
All else being good... would this bother you?
Would you consider it a 'complete' RPG?

Of course... a couple of you have already owned up to not liking chargen anyway... but for the others?

Yes. That isn't a RPG under THOSE parameters when I filter them through MY parameters of what is a RPG. At some realistic point it must have chargen whether that be array, lifepath, dice rolling, point buy, Shadowrun or Onyx Path modified point buy, whatever or some mix of any those it has to have it to be a full RPG.

Quote from: CRKrueger;754548Ok then, my apologies, Sacrosanct has me questioning people's sanity.  Unlike him, I'm capable of admitting I went off the deep end a bit in response to you, however, as a response, my points are valid.

It's fine I actually understood your post upthread and your correction of my misspelled word. So I was jabbing you for it, because you didn't embarrass me you just were jabbing me with humor about it. That's what friends do right?

What if the pregens include all possible variations between race and class, and used standardized ability score arrays?

Quote from: Mistwell;754551What if the pregens include all possible variations between race and class, and used standardized ability score arrays?

If you had access to an array or three then you have character generation and at the least the parameters are totally different and at the most? I really don't know. Except the argument would have to be different.

Quote from: CRKrueger;754536The only bizarro thing is you not comprehending that rolling 3d6 in order, picking fighter, rolling hit points and gold and picking equipment is chargen.  It's bizarro because you didn't disagree with the point that chargen is not charop, but yet here you are now blathering the same fallacy that full-blown 3.5 charop is the definition of chargen, which it clearly isn't..

Where have I even remotely implied that 3.5 charop is the definition of chargen?  Anything even close?  For someone who likes to keep throwing around that other people are using fallacies...



Because you are literally using a fallacy in teh same sentence you're accusing others of.  Truly strange...

But anyway, clearly you didn't understand what I was getting at in my previous post.  Let's address this:

QuoteThe only bizarro thing is you not comprehending that rolling 3d6 in order, picking fighter, rolling hit points and gold and picking equipment is chargen.

Is just picking a fighter considered chargen?  Based on your earlier responses, I'm guessing 'no' because that is the exact same thing one does with a pregen.  And if that's the case, then by that same logic you're using, anyone who uses an array, starts with max hp, and a predetermined adventurer's kit is not creating their own character because they are literally making the same number of choices as the person next to him is when he chooses the fighter pregen.

So would you be so kind to clarify your position?

Quote from: Simlasa;754544Hypothetical:
A new RPG comes out... it has no chargen at all. Just pregens. There are no other books planned, ever (though they will release packs of new pregens occasionally).
You can only play it with pregens unless you want to backwards engineer how the writers made the pregens... make up homerules.
All else being good... would this bother you?
Would you argue with people who were bothered by it?
Would you consider it a 'complete' RPG?

Of course... a couple of you have already owned up to not liking chargen anyway... but for the others?

EDIT: No, I am not equating this not-real game to 5e or it's 'Starter'

Yes it might be a complete RPG.
Take the example I quoted way back where you have a Marvel superhero game and you have to play a marvel hero. Big book of pregens and more released over time.

This is a complete RPG.

It might not be a great RPG and I can see lots of people complaining but its a complete RPG.

I also refer you to what the aim of the "Starter Set" is which is not a complete game as that is the Basic set which is free.

Quote from: Marleycat;754553If you had access to an array or three then you have character generation and at the least the parameters are totally different and at the most? I really don't know. Except the argument would have to be different.

No I am talking about a hypothetical game that always uses the same array.  So all healers use the same spread of ability scores (the Healer array), all warriors the same (Warrior array), etc.. So the game includes say 4 races and 4 classes, and comes with all 16 variations of those (name is blank, description is blank, but race and class and ability scores and fixed hit points and fixed saves), and the array is the same based on the class (modified by the race), so you're not choosing ability scores nor rolling for them.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;754559So would you be so kind to clarify your position?

Did anyone ever tell you you're nowhere near as clever as you think you are, especially when you think you're setting a "gotcha" trap a 2 year old could see through?

For your point to be true then the sum total of 5e chargen must be as you describe.  If there is no allocation of attributes, but ONLY a mandatory array, AND there is no variance in hps, all are max AND there is no choice of using anything OTHER THAN your predetermined adventuring kit there being NO choice in the matter, then of course picking a pregen amounts to the same thing.

Is your contention that the 48 page pdf contains only such restrained options?   Please be stupid enough to say yes.

Quote from: Marleycat;754549Yes. That isn't a RPG under THOSE parameters when I filter them through MY parameters of what is a RPG. At some realistic point it must have chargen whether that be array, lifepath, dice rolling, point buy, Shadowrun or Onyx Path modified point buy, whatever or some mix of any those it has to have it to be a full RPG.

See what happens when you both like 5e, and are sane, Sacrosanct?