Quote from: Windjammer;753402Yup. From the first playtest document. It was literally too obtuse and fun-stopping to include.
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Creating a Character

TLDR.  Genuinely. Are we getting paid by the word for these posts or something?

Besides, if it's already in a glib-copy-paste-ready form, why waste paper printing it out?

To paraphrase a friends sig...

QuoteJust [pick a] fuckin' guy and roll the dice, you pricks. Focus on what's interesting, not what gives you the biggest randomly generated virtual penis. -- J Arcane

Seems to match the sentiment.

Quote from: Exploderwizard;753405Actually, no. If you really generated your PC then you would roll stats then parse the results into a character of some sort. That is the difference between actual character generation and just rolling stats.

Besides just numbers the fluff stuff about a character can be important for a first impression.

Imagine a group of young boys getting a starter set and setting up for play:

" Everyone pick a character and lets get started."

" Umm. This elf has tits. I don't wanna play a girl."

" Yeah and this dwarf looks retarded. I wanna play a human fighter."

" Aw man why do I get stuck playing the short guy."

" I'll trade you my elf girl."

I am pretty sure. Or at least pretty hopeful that the pregens will be Add name, add gender.

Thats what the pregens were in the first playtest. Name, Alignment, Height, Weight, Hair, Eyes, were left blank for the player to fill in.

As noted previously that set was a human cleric, a dwarven cleric, a dwarven fighter, an elven mage and a halfling rogue.

Quote from: Omega;753449I am pretty sure. Or at least pretty hopeful that the pregens will be Add name, add gender.

Thats what the pregens were in the first playtest. Name, Alignment, Height, Weight, Hair, Eyes, were left blank for the player to fill in.

As noted previously that set was a human cleric, a dwarven cleric, a dwarven fighter, an elven mage and a halfling rogue.

Sounds like a hedge opportunity to drive traffic to your site/blog - make more pregens covering typical use cases...

Quote from: CRKrueger;753434No shit, Mistwell and 5acrosanct are starting to sound like Seanchai and Abyssal Maw from back in the day.

Interesting with the "5" in my name.  Very original.  Or not.

Can you show me a single post in this thread where I've irrationally defended 5e?  

Or maybe you're making shit up to fit a preconeived notion you might have.  

Hate to break it to you sweetheart, but if you actually read my posts, you'll see I haven't been irrationally defending 5e at all, but what I have taken issue with was Benoist's claims that only the 5e defenders were blowing things out of proportion, when clearly he had some serious blinders on because it's been pointed out many times that the 5e haters have been just as bad, if not worse, with their hyperbole.  Jeff's a prime example of that with some of the things he's said.  Changing my name to "5acrosanct" just because I happen to enjoy the game is another example.

So congrats on taking a page from TBP, assuming that if I don't decry something strongly enough (lack of chargen in the starter set), then I must somehow automatically support the opposite extreme.

Ettin would be proud of you.

Unless you can find posts of mine that even remotely allude to calling anyone who wants chargen in the rules a crybaby, or any posts where I've "irrationally" defended 5e, then I'd appreciate it if you wouldn't leap the assumption you're doing, or engaging in the same hyperbole we're talking about.

Quote from: Ladybird;753332Whether your bard is strong, fast, tough, smart, wise or pretty. You know, the six basic attribute scores, that affect your chances of success at a lot of things in the game.

You can say that the character is any of the above, you can want them to be any of the above, but if their six stats say otherwise, it ain't going to happen. If you're stuck using pregens and the values don't match what you want for your bard, say it's a smart bard but you want to play an agile one, you're not going to get the type of character you want to play.

Likely it will be using the standard array so if you can't convince your DM to let you random roll (3D6 or 4D6 drop 1) how about asking "Can rearrange these numbers to my concept ma'am?"

Quote from: Marleycat;753476Likely it will be using the standard array so if you can't convince your DM to let you random roll (3D6 or 4D6 drop 1) how about asking "Can rearrange these numbers to my concept ma'am?"

...well... While that would work, you would probably need the chargen rules to apply the changes.  At least a portion of them, anyway.

But yeah, if you can reassign/change attributes then the distinction starts getting harder to define.

Quote from: mcbobbo;753477...well... While that would work, you would probably need the chargen rules to apply the changes.  At least a portion of them, anyway.

But yeah, if you can reassign/change attributes then the distinction starts getting harder to define.

The rules will be available though. Heck get adventurous and ask the DM "Can I use that Rogue pregen but be an elf?" Really mess with their mind I say.

Quote from: Marleycat;753480The rules will be available though.

But not in the box, which is the whole point. It makes the box a worse starting point than other game's "Start here!" product, or the free rules download.

I wouldn't pick this product to give to a new player to demonstrate why roleplaying is awesomefun. I'd pick something (Simple!) that let them create their own characters.

(I'm not averse to pregens - one of my favourite characters is the SR3 corebook combat mage, who became the girlfriend of one of my shadowrunners. I just feel that one of the strengths of roleplaying as a hobby is the freedom it gives you, and starting with a character selection constrained by someone else's imagination doesn't seem like the best entry point to me.)

Meh. You keep thinking the product is aimed at you. It really isn't. If you actually ran a game out of the Starter Set none of your concerns would be an issue. And the segment that it's actually aimed to it's also a non-issue.

Quote from: Marleycat;753493Meh. You keep thinking the product is aimed at you. It really isn't. If you actually ran a game out of the Starter Set none of your concerns would be an issue. And the segment that it's actually aimed to it's also a non-issue.

It's aimed at new players. I get that. There are simply other options for things I could give to new players, before I would pick this one.

Quote from: Ladybird;753486I wouldn't pick this product to give to a new player to demonstrate why roleplaying is awesomefun. I'd pick something (Simple!) that let them create their own characters.

I'd be inclined to give them Swords & Wizardry... or maybe Labyrinth Lord. The kids who asked me to run 'D&D' for them had no clue there were other RPGs... and they don't really care if it's the 'official' version or not.
Oh, and an informal questioning of some kids last night, non-roleplayers... playing 'a game', would they rather play a pre-made character or make your own... %100 percent favored making up their own. (notably one kid then went on to describe the crazy over-powered ninja thing he'd make... so, hmmm)
It's one of the main draws, IMO.

Quote from: Ladybird;753497It's aimed at new players. I get that. There are simply other options for things I could give to new players, before I would pick this one.

Then do so. Nobody said you don't have options.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;753407Get what?  That if you play with pregens it defeats the whole point of the game like you said?

No Jeff, no one else "gets that".  The only person to remotely defend you is Benoist (defense by calling everyone else names; even he refuses to actually say if he agreed with you or not), and several people have said you're both off the rails on this one.

So I'm not sure what you're trying to say that "everyone else gets".

Quote from: Mistwell;753411Given in Jeffs preferred game you can die during character generation, is it any surprise he's focused on charop?

Haters gonna hate. Meh.

If the two of you were being intellectually honest for a moment, you'd get the point. It amuses me that you both think that this strawman arguement is far more worthy.

Quote from: CRKrueger;753434No shit, Mistwell and 5acrosanct are starting to sound like Seanchai and Abyssal Maw from back in the day.

Oh jeez! I wouldn't go that far. Mistwell, along with others have been kind of insulting with the whole charop/'denners' angle... and other folks throwing around 'grogtards'. But I don't think it's reached the Abyssal Maw standards of excellence yet.

I would be more understanding of the big deal about no character generation in the box if...

1. It was 2001
2. The product in question wasn't $12-$13
3. The rules weren't freely available