Quote from: JasperAK;752745.... I guess our experiences show how differently people get into the hobby. And it leads me to wonder what WOTC learned about how people started playing D&D: did they learn from others or did they just get the game and learn themselves. In my immediate circle in middle-school, one person introduced me to the game and we then introduced more than a dozen others. When we played we had the benefit of using a system that was much more free form than more modern systems produced by WOTC.

I think you're probably right about how our own experiences reflect the way we entered the game.

I started with what I think was probably the 4th printing of the Holmes set back in 1979. None of us had ever played anything like this before. If I remember correctly, the box included a module: In Search of the Unknown. But before we played the module, there was some sort of introductory section which had a fighter dude entering some twisty tunnels where he'd encounter skeletons, rats and, I think, a ghoul.

None of us had ever played a D&D game before. We had only a vague idea of what it was supposed to do. I honestly can't remember if the fighter was a pregen or rolled up, but I know we didn't spend much time on it. I was the DM and ran my brother through it - total theatre of the mind - and at the end of it he said, "Jeez, that was intense, you are on the other side of this and you have no idea what that was like."

That's when we got hooked and stayed hooked for about 35 years now. And we've hooked more than a few people since then. It initially had virtually nothing to do with character generation, backstory, customization or any of that. That all came much later on.

Fact is that I can't recall much of any back story for any character that I've played or played with in the many years since then. The whole idea of roleplaying a preconceived character is really kind of secondary. For me, it's never been about how someone started (especially since so damned many of them died in the first session); it's how they grew and what they actually did when I played them.

As far as emotional investment goes, I'll admit that I was definitely more detached for 1st level characters than 7th or 8th level characters that I'd been playing for months. But I think that's normal.

When we taught people later on, we rarely spent much time on character creation. The whole idea was to get them into the action ASAP and get them comfortable with the rules.

When we did have someone join the group who came in with the whole elaborate background of being the third son of a minor noble from a southern peninsula with a penchant for bow-legged women and red silk scarves, looking for his long-lost cousin who disappeared in the wilderness a year earlier - we just knew that fucker was going to die in the first room we hit.

Nowadays, we just call characters like that "Oberyns."

Quote from: Saplatt;752798/snip

When we did have someone join the group who came in with the whole elaborate background of being the third son of a minor noble from a southern peninsula with a penchant for bow-legged women and red silk scarves, looking for his long-lost cousin who disappeared in the wilderness a year earlier - we just knew that fucker was going to die in the first room we hit.

Going that deep into background stuff, for me it was only a phase. And a quick one at that (2e kits). Kinda like that one time in college...

And your thoughts on what did it for you, this new thing called D&D. Yep. I just might be more of a method actor. When I make a new character, a lot of it comes down to, 'who do I want to be now'? Sometimes I surprise myself when a character takes off on his own--very much like in writing.

Quote from: Windjammer;752527Shame on WotC for not including any of the above. Shame on them for not dedicating 4 pages on the joys and thrills of generating a character, and for showing you on another 4 on how to do it. Shame on them for promoting the idea that creating a character needs a $50 hardcover or a 48 (!) page PDF.

Yes you are right, but so what? Wizards hasn't DONE anything yet. Come July 20th we will know and have something real to judge. The only thing we have that is concrete is how well Wizards is marketing the introduction of 5e.

Quote from: Saplatt;752800Nowadays, we just call characters like that "Oberyns."

Ok, I'll bite. Explain please.

Quote from: Benoist;752784When you have to actually argue with people that the ability to create your own characters however you imagine them in your head is a primary feature of tabletop role playing games, and not an obstacle to their appreciation out of the box, is when you know something is rotten in the state of Denmark.

Then D&D has been a pretty shit RPG from the beginning, because I couldn't make half the fantasy characters I wanted to play in my head. I had to fit them into the archetypes the game would allow. Especially back in the TSR days when customization was pretty limited to what magic items you managed to find and the stats you rolled at level 1.

But you know what, as the mantra goes here, what is on your character sheet is not your character. I will take a bet that every person who picks up one of those pregens is going to play them differently. They are going to play a different character, because that character sheet is not their character.

I'll take a bet, that the pregens will be pretty archetypical characters. Fighter, Rogue, Wizard, Cleric, Ranger. Maybe the Ranger will be an Elf, the Cleric will be a Dwarf. I have no idea exactly. And it won't be much different than playing Basic. Pick from Magic User, Fighting Man, Elf, Dwarf, etc.

Apparently rolling stats is what makes chargen chargen to some people?

EDIT: I would like to point out, that personally, I think the starter set would be better served to have character generation in it. I just think if there is a readily available free resource that can be accessed for chargen... then its not the end of the world if the Starter set doesn't include it.

Quote from: Emperor Norton;752810Apparently rolling stats is what makes chargen chargen to some people?

Nope... part of it though. Sometimes, depending on the system, I come with a picture in my head and hope to make the rules work for me to get that idea onto the character sheet (not that the character sheet is the character either).
Other times I take the random roll and look for an image... a story in the numbers. That's fun too.
A pre-gen, even one that is just the stats/race/class, is just that little bit further from being my own. I can make it work, have fun with it, but it remains a compromise... a lesser thing.

Quote from: Saplatt;752798When we did have someone join the group who came in with the whole elaborate background of being the third son of a minor noble from a southern peninsula with a penchant for bow-legged women and red silk scarves, looking for his long-lost cousin who disappeared in the wilderness a year earlier - we just knew that fucker was going to die in the first room we hit.

It sounds like that player joined the wrong group.

D&D.

So Awesome.

U

Quote from: saplatt;752798i think you're probably right about how our own experiences reflect the way we entered the game.

I started with what i think was probably the 4th printing of the holmes set back in 1979. None of us had ever played anything like this before. If i remember correctly, the box included a module: in search of the unknown. But before we played the module, there was some sort of introductory section which had a fighter dude entering some twisty tunnels where he'd encounter skeletons, rats and, i think, a ghoul.

None of us had ever played a d&d game before. We had only a vague idea of what it was supposed to do. I honestly can't remember if the fighter was a pregen or rolled up, but i know we didn't spend much time on it. I was the dm and ran my brother through it - total theatre of the mind - and at the end of it he said, "jeez, that was intense, you are on the other side of this and you have no idea what that was like."

that's when we got hooked and stayed hooked for about 35 years now. And we've hooked more than a few people since then. It initially had virtually nothing to do with character generation, backstory, customization or any of that. That all came much later on.

Fact is that i can't recall much of any back story for any character that i've played or played with in the many years since then. The whole idea of roleplaying a preconceived character is really kind of secondary. For me, it's never been about how someone started (especially since so damned many of them died in the first session); it's how they grew and what they actually did when i played them.

As far as emotional investment goes, i'll admit that i was definitely more detached for 1st level characters than 7th or 8th level characters that i'd been playing for months. But i think that's normal.

When we taught people later on, we rarely spent much time on character creation. The whole idea was to get them into the action asap and get them comfortable with the rules.

When we did have someone join the group who came in with the whole elaborate background of being the third son of a minor noble from a southern peninsula with a penchant for bow-legged women and red silk scarves, looking for his long-lost cousin who disappeared in the wilderness a year earlier - we just knew that fucker was going to die in the first room we hit.

Exactly. I usually wanted to play a wizard. I died alot hence give me a pregen and shut up already and let me play!

Quote from: Sacrosanct;752728It makes no sense whatsoever when it's people like Jeff who are saying that if you don't roll your own PC, you're missing the entire point of the game.

Quote from: jeff37923;752664You know, these are role-playing games. If you cannot create a character for yourself to role-play, but must use someone else's pre-gen, that kinda defeats the purpose of playing the game.

For clarity, since you've gone off the deep end as usual.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;752734When someone says that unless you create your own PCs, you are missing the entire point of the game, that means that that person thinks the entire point of the game is making your own PCs.  That's how the English language works.  And the only people I have ever heard that views the entire point of the game is char gen are the Denners, that's why I brought up the analogy.  So unless you can show me other groups of people who are known for viewing the entire point of the game as chargen, the analogy is apt.

And like Wiley Coyote, Sac just now sees how high he is up in the air and how far away from the cliff he is.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;752734Personally, I don't think Jeff does think the entire point of the game is chargen, but he's too freaking stubborn to admit he said something really dumb.  And here you are, doubling down on the stubbornness.

This is what is called projection, in psychological circles.

However, I offer this challenge to Sacrosanct. The next game in which you are a Player, I will create your PC as a pre-gen for you to play since the Player Character does not matter to you. You can let me know how that turns out.

Quote from: Mistwell;752772Then I guess any session there isn't a TPK, your players are missing the entire point of the game according to Jeff.

Not surprisingly, you'd guess wrong.

Quote from: Benoist;752784When you have to actually argue with people that the ability to create your own characters however you imagine them in your head is a primary feature of tabletop role playing games, and not an obstacle to their appreciation out of the box, is when you know something is rotten in the state of Denmark.

Ain't that the fuckin' truth!


EDIT:

So if WotC didn't think that the Starter Set was crippleware without chargen, then why create the http://wizards.com/dnd/Article.aspx?x=dnd/4ll/20140527]Basic Set?[/URL]

Except both of you are wrong...we all are on the internet? What? Shut the fuck up both of you. And anytime you want to build me a fair character Jeff you're on.

Though if it's a dwarven fighter it could get bloody.

Quote from: Simlasa;752796Well, two of them in this thread seem to pretty openly dislike creating characters of their own.

If that's the case they'll bother me a lot less... if it's just the Numberwang bits that are pre-figured but none of the personality/looks/motivations bits... even though those numbers do tell a backstory of their own.
Most pre-gens I've played as came with past history, personality, ambitions, bad habits... a bit of artwork. I'd prefer to come up with all of that myself.

That's the bit that puts me off... on guard against their corporate schemes.
It seems so easy to put the chargen in the box that the only reasons (that I can believe) not to are all skeezy marketing wank to push some sort of guided experience.

1: That is an understatement.

2: I really hope I am right. It is the best way to go about it without totally removing any sort of player embellishment. The ones in the playtest were two clerics one human one dwarven, a dwarven fighter, halfling thief, and elven wizard. Statted, equipped, etc with the character sheet explaining the class and race right there. even what to do when you leveled to 2 and 3. I am hoping they keep this format as it works.

3: I think Next is being used as an experimental platform. Someone thought this would be a good idea. It may be. I can certainly see what they are aiming at. But 19 years of WOTC wacky has taught me that no matter how good the odds. WOTC can still botch it. The fact that there has apparently been no mainstream or even magazine advertising for Next is an indicator.

If the starter is supposed to bring in these new players unused to the mystery of RPGs. Then wouldnt it be a good idea to... oh... you know... Let them know it exists? Still a minor irk point.

Quote from: Benoist;752784When you have to actually argue with people that the ability to create your own characters however you imagine them in your head is a primary feature of tabletop role playing games, and not an obstacle to their appreciation out of the box, is when you know something is rotten in the state of Denmark.

Quote from: jeff37923;752820Ain't that the fuckin' truth!

Yeah the bullshit is getting pretty thick.  You got Mistwell in white knight mode, you got Marley doing her passive-aggressive poke Ben thing, you got the usual anti-grog suspects representin' and you got the budding 5anatic 5acrosanct jumping in 'cause he gets to argue with Jeff over something again.

We know there's a whole lot of tangential dishonest bullshit behind people's arguing when Windjammer and Ben are in 100% agreement and in this case Skywalker and I are in 100% agreement.

Quote from: Skywalker;752770Though you don't create a PC every session, you do play a character of your own creation for nearly 100% of the time. By removing the ability to create a PC, you remove this almost ever present (and arguably distinctive) aspect of the game.

Anyone who disagrees with that statement has lost their reason due to personality bullshit and needs to step off the internet for a while because they're making themselves look like a raving lunatic.  That statement is an axiom.

Now if you want debate whether or not by having the chargen rules removed from the Starter Set box as an adjunct pdf, they are truly missing from the Starter experience, go ahead, but that's a matter of opinion anyway.

Now that other shoe has dropped, we finally know what Pundit was talking about.  We can move on from the Starter Set.

Basic D&D going from 1-20th and continually updated with new content from releases will be free on WotC site, and that the PHB, DMG, and MM will be optional to Basic D&D.

Quote from: CRKrueger;752832Now that other shoe has dropped, we finally know what Pundit was talking about.  We can move on from the Starter Set.

Yeah... the Basic version looks like the way to go. Screw the 'Starter Set', it can go die in a fire.

Quote from: jeff37923;752820So if WotC didn't think that the Starter Set was crippleware without chargen, then why create the http://wizards.com/dnd/Article.aspx?x=dnd/4ll/20140527]Basic Set?[/URL]

That one's easy.  There's no way Hasbro is going to allow WotC to give away physical product and, as the people with the first SRD, WotC knows "living Documents" are better kept in updated online form anyway.

Remember - They are on a Mission to Repair the Brand
Get Basic D&D to anyone who wants it, for free, and even update the Basic Set with content from time to time and make it 1-20th.  
The Microlite and OD&D people? Done (with the hope they will buy the 3 main books for options, but not counting on it if they don't).

Get the Starter Set into as many stores as possible, let the kids pick up and play, give away free chargen pdfs, push the ground game of Organized Play in physical stores.  
Kids? Done

The 3 main books will come out and give people the classic D&D book experience.  
Rest of the OSR people? Done  
3ers and 4ers?  Getting there, depending on how much of their advanced chargen,tactical minis play and storybased ruleplay is actually going to be in the books.

They're not expecting to pick up every member of every faction again, but they hoping they can at least get some kind of product, even if it's free, to repair the brand with every member of every faction, maybe enough to at least try the New D&D.

This might be a drop in the bucket compared to the buildup of a new Magic release, but for WotC and D&D, this is a full-court press.