Quote from: Mistwell;752775Yeah, bullshit.  The distinctive aspect of the game IS ROLE PLAYING.  It's right there in the fucking name of the activity.

With the "role" in almost 99%+ of RPGs being created by the player, right? Creating PCs and playing a role aren't mutually exclusive, with only one able to be the distinctive feature. Both are distinctive aspects of RPGs and their combination is a powerful part of their appeal.

Quote from: Endless Flight;752774There's only five in the box.  I hope your players have good imaginations.

Duly conceded then...no chargen sucks, what were they thinking? "Our game is so feeble it's inconceivable 7 people will sit at the same table..."

Quote from: Mistwell;752772I am obviously not talking about NPCs, because those are not PCs, by definition, and we're taking about PCs.  Now if you count NPCs, then guess what - the Starter set DOES have rules to make those I believe.

Do all your players die every session? No? Then I guess any session there isn't a TPK, your players are missing the entire point of the game according to Jeff.



I often come to a session and say "Who is out, I will play that character".  Am I missing the entire point of the game because I didn't chargen that character?

I thought the entire point of the game was to role play, not to make a special snowflake all my own.

You are by the Church of Benoist. He's almost as big of an asshole as GOD himself it seems.

Quote from: Doom;752780Duly conceded then...no chargen sucks, what were they thinking? "Our game is so feeble it's inconceivable 7 people will sit at the same table..."

Hey, if you have internet access at the store and want to download that PDF, all the players can then create their own "special snowflake", as Mistwell likes to call them.

Quote from: Mistwell;752755LOL wow way to not comprehend.

If I misread you, I apologize. No need to be insulting
And my point still stands, just not in reply to yours.

QuoteSo if the process of character creation is THE POINT of the game, then why is it almost zero sessions actually experience that thing?

I never said that it's the point of the game. But I also wasn't referring solely to 'the process of character creation'... I was including the entire experience that follows from it, having a character of your own design to play as.

QuoteNo, it's not.  I don't even remember most chargens.

Again, that's not the point. Do you remember any CHARACTERS? Were they pre-gens or ones you designed yourself? Are you suggesting you have no preference?  

QuoteIt's usually more individual and less social in nature, it usually involves intricate choices being made mostly in a vacuum which turn out to be not so important later, and it's often a lot of math and checking things to make sure things were done right.

You're describing some boring chargen. The fault of your DM or some overly complex game system. There's no reason it has to be that way.  The groups I've played in have just about always done it together... bouncing our character concepts around... kind of building the group as a whole (unless we're going to do the 'you meet a stranger in a bar' setup). Even if it's just me rolling up a replacement PC I've never felt I was like you describe... I don't worry the numbers that way.

QuoteIt's not an important aspect of the game.

So you don't really care what sort of character you play. Any old pre-gen will always suit you just fine?  

QuoteWhen I think role playing game, I do not think calculating my fucking armor class up or character height and weight while everyone else around me is (fairly quietly usually) doing the same.

Neither do I... and none of that is what I think is fun about chargen. Jeez, what sort of fucked up games have you been playing?  

QuoteThat's not a strength of RPGs, it's not what makes RPGs important, it's none of the important elements of the game.

Which? The charop nonsense you're describing OR designing a character of your own that you'll enjoy playing? To me those are two different things. The second one is very much a 'strength of RPGs' and, to me at least, a very important element of the game.

When you have to actually argue with people that the ability to create your own characters however you imagine them in your head is a primary feature of tabletop role playing games, and not an obstacle to their appreciation out of the box, is when you know something is rotten in the state of Denmark.

Quote from: Endless Flight;752776So the DM will have to spend about 15 minutes creating a character for the sixth player while the others twiddle their thumbs? Why not just put the rules in the box and they could all make their own at the same time?

Somehow I like you sir. But yes if I'm playing it's just easier and quicker given my horrible rolling during that phase.

Quote from: Marleycat;752785Somehow I like you sir. But yes if I'm playing it's just easier and quicker given my horrible rolling during that phase.

Maybe they have point buy for you.

It's usually better for me if that's an option honestly. 16/15/14/14/12/10 would rock my world.

Quote from: Benoist;752743I am one of those people who believe that one of the chief aspects that differentiate tabletop role playing games from any other type of game, role playing or not, is the ability to explore the worlds of YOUR OWN imagination, and that includes the ability for the starting player to create his or her OWN alter ego in the game-world from scratch. It is not rocket science, and if 5e does indeed live up to its promises, it shouldn't take more than a page spread to explain how to do it in the starter set.

This is an entirely reasonable statement that no one disagrees with.  But it's not an argument against WotC's plan.  Not a good one, at any rate.  IF WotC's plan was to give you a Dragonlance-like railroad adventure path and IF the pre-gens that came with the Starter Set were Dragonlance-like pre-gens or 3e Iconics with set personalities and histories, it would make some sense.  And if that's what the 5e Starter Set ends up having, I will be right there with you saying, "That's fucked up."

However, as far as we can tell, that's not what WotC is doing.  I've spent time on EN World arguing that a pre-gen is distinct from, say, B/X chargen, but that difference is nothing compared to the player creating his or her OWN alter ego in the game world through actual play.  I mean, Jesus, that's what the whole "Special Snowflake" thread was about.  Remember the "Black Box" thread, where everybody was nodding sagely and saying, "Yeah, this is what it's all about."?  Whether you have a pre-gen or a notepad on which you've written 7 random numbers and selected some equipment, what makes that character a character at all is what you do in the game.  Before that point it's just numbers on a sheet of paper.  And all WotC has done is put the mechanical processes for generating those numbers on the internet.  For free.

I mean, for fuck's sake, you guys have read the OD&D rulebooks, haven't you?  That has no player-oriented character generation.  The rulebooks are meant for the referee only.  By the book, players don't even generate characters; the referee rolls ability scores and gives them to the player, who then rolls GP and picks a class and equipment.  But no one talks (except asshole new school-types) about Gygax and Arneson "not getting it" or being "dumb" and "flat out stupid".  Because, up until this little kerfluffle, everyone understood that a character was generated by what you did, not by what you rolled.

WotC understands that chargen is a necessary (though not sufficient) condition for a role-playing game.  That's why they're providing 15% of the PHB, including chargen, for free.  To anyone.  But the argument against their plan has basically boiled down to "I think the mechanical processes should be in the box."  It's not a question of provision.  Chargen and more is being provided.  Shit, some kid interested in role-playing doesn't even need to buy a damn thing.  He'll be able to get chargen and campaign rules for freakin' free.  It's a question of "Should it be in the box of this particular product?"  And hey, that's a question on which reasonable people can reasonably disagree.  But if people say, "If the freely provided rules are not printed out and included in this particular box-set product, then WotC is stupid and is not providing the essence of role-playing to new players," then other people are going to say, "Wow.  That's some crazy bullshit."  And frankly, "You just don't like 5e being criticized!" is not a compelling response.

QuoteIs it still super-dumb to not have character generation in the starter set? It is!

It's super-dumb not to have any character generation in the starter set unless you buy the PHB (cf. 4e).  Whether or not the freely available chargen rules are printed out and put in the box by WotC themselves is so much pointless frippery.

Quote from: Endless Flight;752782Hey, if you have internet access at the store and want to download that PDF, all the players can then create their own "special snowflake", as Mistwell likes to call them.

No, just plain, no. Having dealt with so much misery with 4e's character generator, I'm not about to try to send half a dozen people, assuming they have cell phones or laptops, to a website to figure it all out...assuming the store has internet access, assuming the access is working smoothly.

Guess I'll just print out the PDF on my own time, and make some pregens...but seriously, if chargen is not in the box, why not have enough pregens for more than 1 game?

If a character dies, and it's replaced by an identical clone of the same character, that's a little disimmersive in my book.

Quote from: Mistwell;752775Yeah, bullshit.  The distinctive aspect of the game IS ROLE PLAYING.  It's right there in the fucking name of the activity.  

Just because I didn't role those stats and choose which race to go with which class, but instead grabbed a pregen, I am no longer experiencing the distinctive ever present portion of the game? Even though I am the one naming them, I am the one playing them and choosing the personality for the character, even though I am the one levelling them and adventuring with them, all of that is not distinctive of RPGS but it was instead choosing which ability score to put the 15 in that's distinctive?

So much bullshit.

You know what, you roleplay different than I.

When I sit down to create a character, every ability score works with the others to create this new persona. How do I reconcile a STR 15 with a CON 6? What do these scores tell me about the choices this character made in life?

And as I go through the process I have a well-formed character in my head, such that I could write a short story about him and have an idea about how he will act and react to events. It is the process that works for me. The visceral process. That's what I have taught to others. The joy of creating an alter-ego from six ability scores and a handful of choices. And then we play the game, and I learn more and more about the character as he acts and develops his personality. That's how I roleplay.

I have played pre-gens before. I didn't start off as connected to them until their personality manifested itself through play. In time I connected as if I had made the character myself. But for that interim time, nada, couldn't care less. Same with HeroQuest.

Quote from: Benoist;752743I am one of those people who believe that one of the chief aspects that differentiate tabletop role playing games from any other type of game, role playing or not, is the ability to explore the worlds of YOUR OWN imagination, and that includes the ability for the starting player to create his or her OWN alter ego in the game-world from scratch. It is not rocket science, and if 5e does indeed live up to its promises, it shouldn't take more than a page spread to explain how to do it in the starter set.

Unfortunately others absolutely disagree with that idea.

But.

Keep in mind that the starter is likely going to be like the first playtest. A pregen character that you put your name on and gender on.

As opposed to "Here. you are playing Raistlin, you are playing Strum..."

The player is still playing a personal character rather than a total pregen complete with its own name. And that is the important factor. The player is still playing their own character. The starter just eliminates the front end mechanics and gets you going ASAP. Like a board game or quickstart booklet.

And the chargen part is just moved off to a PDF. It is still there if needed. And WOTCs marketing seems to be revolving around some aspect of that PDF. The starter just happens to follow that ideal oddly.

As for the various arguments that chargen was "too complex"...

For fucks sake! What the hell happened when they got to the actual rules of the game if they couldnt even grasp roll 3d6? What happened when they got to Class explanations? Spells? COMBAT! Each spell is its own little set of rules! What were there? Mass seizures from brain overload? Because chargen is about the simplest step of the game there is.

gah...

In any case its still too soon to be freaking out over the (quick)starter box.

More info please.

Then we can properly freak out. :eek:

Quote from: omega;752794unfortunately others absolutely disagree with that idea.

But.

Keep in mind that the starter is likely going to be like the first playtest. A pregen character that you put your name on and gender on.

As opposed to "here. You are playing raistlin, you are playing strum..."

the player is still playing a personal character rather than a total pregen complete with its own name. And that is the important factor. The player is still playing their own character. The starter just eliminates the front end mechanics and gets you going asap. Like a board game or quickstart booklet.

And the chargen part is just moved off to a pdf. It is still there if needed. And wotcs marketing seems to be revolving around some aspect of that pdf. The starter just happens to follow that ideal oddly.

As for the various arguments that chargen was "too complex"...

For fucks sake! What the hell happened when they got to the actual rules of the game if they couldnt even grasp roll 3d6? What happened when they got to class explanations? Spells? Combat! Each spell is its own little set of rules! What were there? Mass seizures from brain overload? Because chargen is about the simplest step of the game there is.

Gah...

In any case its still too soon to be freaking out over the (quick)starter box.

More info please.

Then we can properly freak out. :eek:

Again logic does not belong on the internet fool.

This is Benoist's Church and you better learn that quick now, QUICK!

Quote from: Omega;752794Unfortunately others absolutely disagree with that idea.

Well, two of them in this thread seem to pretty openly dislike creating characters of their own.

QuoteKeep in mind that the starter is likely going to be like the first playtest. A pregen character that you put your name on and gender on.

As opposed to "Here. you are playing Raistlin, you are playing Strum..."

The player is still playing a personal character rather than a total pregen complete with its own name. And that is the important factor. The player is still playing their own character.

If that's the case they'll bother me a lot less... if it's just the Numberwang bits that are pre-figured but none of the personality/looks/motivations bits... even though those numbers do tell a backstory of their own.
Most pre-gens I've played as came with past history, personality, ambitions, bad habits... a bit of artwork. I'd prefer to come up with all of that myself.

QuoteAnd the chargen part is just moved off to a PDF. It is still there if needed. And WOTCs marketing seems to be revolving around some aspect of that PDF. The starter just happens to follow that ideal oddly.

That's the bit that puts me off... on guard against their corporate schemes.
It seems so easy to put the chargen in the box that the only reasons (that I can believe) not to are all skeezy marketing wank to push some sort of guided experience.