Quote from: Endless Flight;752716I just asked my 11 year old daughter, the age that is right in the supposed wheelhouse of this boxed set, if she knew what a PDF was. She got a funny look on her face and said "no". She's got a iPod Touch, uses a Kindle Fire regularly, and also knows how to use a laptop. I think the next time I pick her up from her school I'll conduct an unscientific poll and see how many of her 10-12 year old schoolmates know as well. I have a feeling I know what the majority will say.

Not if you explain "see that big red button?" Not saying anything about your child but I question the methodology full stop, no pass go sir.

Basically give her a URL and then tell me about your survey.

Quote from: JasperAK;752705I said it a couple of days ago and it bears repeating. I think it would be a good move for WOTC to take what they are giving away and print a book that could fit in the starter set. Sell it along side the starter set. I don't think too many would complain about paying $40 or so for a complete BASIC game.

That probably wouldn't be a bad idea, and I wouldn't be surprised to see it at some point, but it may not be a priority at launch.

Quote from: JasperAK;752705I agree though I believe chargen is an important part of the learning process. How many might have a bad experience because they don't understand what is on their sheet. The act of creating a character may help some to understand how some of the rules work.

You might be right, but my limited experience is the opposite. Especially at the outset, people get too tied up in trying to generate a character without yet knowing the rules or the feel of the game, and too worried about whether option A is a "better" choice than option "B" and so forth. I almost always have to walk them through it. Some people have ideas about who wizards or thieves are and what should be able to do that doesn't remotely resemble 1st level D&D characters.

I give the same kids a boardgame like Talisman and Bam!  They are up and running Eight O'clock, Monday Morning, Day One.      

Quote from: JasperAK;752705As for those that play it and love it. What the hell is going to happen when they go from the starter set where everything is done for you to the core rulebook and now have to learn how to do everything themselves with a lot more options to choose from.

I assume that having played the game and seeing how things work, the chargen rules and the various other options will make a lot more sense to them than if they just picked it up cold. Why would it be otherwise?

Quote from: JasperAK;752705...I just know that for the few I introduced to our hobby, that first 1/2 session or so (one lunch period for some) of generating their characters and explaining what the numbers on the sheet meant taught them a lot about the game. Plus most were invested in those characters--the roleplaying seemed to come naturally for most.

And, like I said, for me it's been the other way around. There's already a huge amount to digest when picking up even the simplest RPG, and the less they have to learn before they start playing, the better. If it's too intimidating at the start, they'll just set the books aside and go back to the video games.

Quote from: Benoist;752719...to the tracks of Tyranny of the Dragons. I can't wait to find out how it ends. The finale must be awesome, with the opportunity to kill Tiamat herself, and see the movie based on that storyline in the theater right after! I hope my dwarf fighter pregen makes it into the video game too.

I think you're pretty close to the truth of the plan.

Quote from: jeff37923;752699Holy fuck is there an excluded middle to this arguement of yours.

Holy fuck the irony of your post makes my head explode.  You said anyone playing a pregen is missing the whole point of the game, and you have the balls to say I'm excluding the middle?

:jaw-dropping:

Quote from: Benoist;752703I love it how now having two paragraphs explaining how to roll ability scores, choose a race and a class for yourself, along with a couple of lines explaining the basics for each now just means you are a filthy charop denner who can't live without options. So now, it's either (A) play with the pregens WotC gives you already, or (B) you must be a denner.

That is awesome. *golf clap*

Who made that argument?  No one I can see.  What I can see is someone saying that anyone who doesn't make their own character is missing the point of the whole game.  And that reeks of the Denners, since it implies that the whole point of the game is char gen, which is the primary thing they focus on, and not on actual play.

Quote from: Simlasa;752723I don't think you're pretty close to the truth of the plan.

+1000
Try and read a review now and again Ben. Jeez!

Quote from: Sacrosanct;752725Who made that argument?  No one I can see.  What I can see is someone saying that anyone who doesn't make their own character is missing the point of the whole game.  And that reeks of the Denners, since it implies that the whole point of the game is char gen, which is the primary thing they focus on, and not on actual play.

So no, you didn't make that argument at all, but now you're actually totally repeating it intimating that somehow if you think that the ability to play your own invented characters in your own worlds of your imagination, i.e. the point of the game for some people, that it actually might be a "thing" that kinda should make it in the basic introduction of the game for some people, equals being a denner?

*golf clap*

Keep it going. You impress me.

Oh, and Benoist?  When you say something like this:

Quote from: Benoist;752668From where I'm standing right now you guys are the ones who are pissing your pants because someone dared to criticize the starter set. Are you guys alright? Will you be okay? This isn't the end of the world, you know? It isn't for me, and neither does it have to be for anyone else, yourselves included.

It makes no sense whatsoever when it's people like Jeff who are saying that if you don't roll your own PC, you're missing the entire point of the game, or when people are saying that without chargen, you might as well just be playing a boardgame like Wrath of Ashardalon.

Either you have some big ass blinders on, or you're being deliberately obtuse.

Quote from: Simlasa;752711Sure. I just don't think #4 requires you to completely remove chargen... just give basic core options (basic races, classes, short list of spells and equipment) and make it clear more (classes, races, lots more equipment and spells) will be available in the full game.

They already have. Remember the target audience has internet access.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;752725... And that reeks of the Denners, since it implies that the whole point of the game is char gen, which is the primary thing they focus on, and not on actual play.

I had no idea who the "denners" were ... until you mentioned that.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;752728Either you have some big ass blinders on, or you're being deliberately obtuse.

YOU are calling me obtuse?

I am LITERALLY LAUGHING OUT LOUD behind my screen right now. The irony, it is KILLING me!

Quote from: Saplatt;752722You might be right, but my limited experience is the opposite. Especially at the outset, people get too tied up in trying to generate a character without yet knowing the rules or the feel of the game, and too worried about whether option A is a "better" choice than option "B" and so forth.

That's why it should be presented as an open-ended 'what sort of character would you like to play'... with NO stress on how that character will manage in the game, how optimal its stats are.
Most fantasy archetypes I'd expect people to come up with can be filtered down into the basic classes. You'll have to talk down the kid with dreams of the robot ninja who can turn into a dragon... but stuff like 'magical princess' and 'armored guy with a huge axe' are simple.

QuoteI give the same kids a boardgame like Talisman and Bam!  They are up and running Eight O'clock, Monday Morning, Day One.

So you're saying that RPGs need to be more like boardgames? A more limited, controllable, marketable experience? I'm thinking WOTC agrees with you.        

QuoteI assume that having played the game and seeing how things work, the chargen rules and the various other options will make a lot more sense to them than if they just picked it up cold. Why would it be otherwise?

Because after the first few games D&D might be rooted in their minds as a game you play with pre-generated characters.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;752728Oh, and Benoist?  When you say something like this:



It makes no sense whatsoever when it's people like Jeff who are saying that if you don't roll your own PC, you're missing the entire point of the game, or when people are saying that without chargen, you might as well just be playing a boardgame like Wrath of Ashardalon.

Either you have some big ass blinders on, or you're being deliberately obtuse.

I pick door #3 Monty....trolling.

Quote from: Benoist;752727So no, you didn't make that argument at all, but now you're actually totally repeating it intimating that somehow if you think that the ability to play your own invented characters in your own worlds of your imagination, i.e. the point of the game for some people, that it actually might be a "thing" that kinda should make it in the basic introduction of the game for some people, equals being a denner?

*golf clap*

Keep it going. You impress me.

I'm going to repeat it yet again, because you seem to be missing the point

And that reeks of the Denners, since it implies that the whole point of the game is char gen, which is the primary thing they focus on, and not on actual play.

When someone says that unless you create your own PCs, you are missing the entire point of the game, that means that that person thinks the entire point of the game is making your own PCs.  That's how the English language works.  And the only people I have ever heard that views the entire point of the game is char gen are the Denners, that's why I brought up the analogy.  So unless you can show me other groups of people who are known for viewing the entire point of the game as chargen, the analogy is apt.

Personally, I don't think Jeff does think the entire point of the game is chargen, but he's too freaking stubborn to admit he said something really dumb.  And here you are, doubling down on the stubbornness.

Quote from: Marleycat;752726+1000
Try and read a review now and again Ben. Jeez!

Nope, that was my fault for bad editing. I've fixed it now.

Quote from: Marleycat;752729They already have. Remember the target audience has internet access.

Maybe. I think you presume too much. The two groups of kids I play with have SOME internet access... one group has to ask for permission. Neither have a decent printer to print stuff out on and neither have a portable device to tote the PDF to games with. None of them have their own phones yet.  
Sure, they can get their parents to do it... but that's one more step added to the mix.
I'm at the public library every Saturday. There are always loads of people, all ages, waiting to use a computer... get on the internet. I'm thinking that WOTC's miracle PDF might be less of a miracle for them too.

Meanwhile I remain entirely UNCONVINCED about any supposed benefits to leaving basic chargen out of the box (except for the benefit to WOTC).