Quote from: Rhymer88 on March 14, 2022, 11:08:46 AM
From a cultural perspective, I would actually be more interested in knowing why so few Asians play TTRPGs. By Asians I mean people in Asia, not Asian-Americans or whatnot. This is not just the case in East Asia, but even more so in India and the Middle East, even though there's already a large middle class in those regions. RPG video games are played the world over, but TTRPGs are still very much concentrated in North America and Western Europe. Here in Germany, all of the TTRPG players I have ever come across are white (even at conventions). Moreover, none of them are Muslim, despite the fact that Germany has a large Muslim minority (mostly Turks and Arabs).

It would seem that TTRPGs are even more narrow than just 'white people'. Most white people have no more interest than black people or other minorities. Within that narrow range, mostly white people, it is limited even more to geeks. I guess geeks in other regions have other things to amuse them?

Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 14, 2022, 12:51:58 PM

IMHO it WAS racist off the GM not to tell her from minute one that she was being rude, I imagine that would be the case with any one not a woman and black.

In my table all are treated the same IDGAF what your sex/color/sexuality/religion/etc is. YOU will respect the table, the GM and the other players or you'll get a talking to, if the attitude persist then you're not a good fit and will be kicked out.

In hindsight you are correct. but at the time we were all so afraid of being called an 'ist' or a 'phobe' that we were bending over backwards to be nice when she was making no effort whatsoever to be nice to us. I hope if this happens again we shut down the bad behavior immediately regardless of 'identity'.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 13, 2022, 08:56:05 PM
I knew of this issue long before ever seeing the video, (which is why I talked about confirmation biases) and for the life of me I can't wrap my head around the idea that some hobby can be "white" or whatever other race you care to mention.

Why? Because it then creates a division and antagonism. It also keeps the masses stupid and malleable which is the other big thing with black "culture". "Being smart is White!". And its easier to make up excuses for racism and eventually violence.

This is the same for any group that gets singled out for hatred.

Quote from: Cat the Bounty Smuggler on March 13, 2022, 11:40:56 PM
I agree with Fheredin: D&D and other major brands are expensive, not roleplaying in general. At least, not anymore. Basic Fantasy's not only free to download, you can get physical copies at cost, and there are a bunch of adventures for it, also for free or at cost.

The core game of D&D, long as you hit the bargains, is relatively cheap. I've gotten all my 5e books straight from WOTC for around 35$ eash. Sure thats about 105$ for the core three. But alot of board games are now cranking close to that if not more if you add in expansions. The new Arkham Horror cost me 65$ of dissapointment. retail is 85$. And each expansion would have added 160$ more. Not counting 10$ for any add-on dice sets. Thats at more than twice the cost of the bargain 5e core 3 and still 100$ more than the retail.

Cost is a barrier for anyone though. Some people can toss around cash like that. I splurged on one game I really liked several years ago. And have spent a fair amount total on 5e. But thats spread over years now.

Quote from: jeff37923 on March 14, 2022, 05:27:28 AM

You've lost your sense of perspective.

I have to disagree here. Iften all it takes really is just one complaint. That and a company really too spineless to stand up to them. As I've noted before. Way back they tried this stunt with one of Asimov's magazines and he very un-politely told them to take a hike. TSR and WOTC on the other hand caved in. Sure they sprang back later. But they bent knee to these moral busybodies and the outrage brigade and the impact of that we still feel in small ways decades later.

I believe the why of this problem of one complainer being a big threat is the snowflake and avalance factor. All it takes is one snowflake landing just right to get all the others moving.

On the flip side though I very agree people here and elsewhere do indeed sometimes jump the gun and assume that just because something has some hints of the cult it must be of the cult. Unfortunately thats because every time we do not raise hell they somehow gain another foothold. Remember way back when this current wave was just starting. People here and elsewhere said to just ignore them and they would wither and fail.

That sure worked out just dandy didnt it? Just like it worked the iteration before, and the one before that and probably the ones I've mercifully missed.

But yeah people. Please take the time to stop, look, and listen before jumping in gunz-a-blazin.

Quote from: Fheredin on March 13, 2022, 10:00:37 PM
I don't think you understand why I am sympathetic in this particular situation; sure, we can't force roleplaying on blacks, but I also lament the struggles specifically black players who want to roleplay have. I have enough trouble finding a group. It would be flat out impossible if I were black living in a historically black area. And soft apartheid exists everywhere.

The soft apartheid in this instance is culturally self-inflicted. It is not something being imposed on the Black community by an outside culture.

I am sympathetic too. I think it would be great for more people in general to play RPG's.

But we can't change peoples culture for them.

Quote from: Fheredin on March 13, 2022, 10:00:37 PM
D&D is expensive, and a few other systems are expensive. And of course being a collector with a big game library is expensive. But otherwise...RPGs are really bloody cheap to play.

Yet D&D is the RPG most are likely to come across first.

It sets the tone for better or worse for most peoples experiences in the hobby.

It is what it is.

Quote from: Koltar on March 13, 2022, 10:37:56 PM
Oh Bullshit - I call bullshit on this.

When the Game Store was still pen we had plenty of black customers browsing and buying both tabletop RPGs and comic books.
For a while I believe there was one Pathfinder group that ALL African American, wait I think they had one white guy playing.

Heck, I remember one time browsing a video game magazine for illustrations to use in my GURPS Traveller game. Two youngish black guys near me asked what I was talking about. I told them it was sc fi roleplaying game. One of them said "OH like Dungeons and Dragons." I said yes and the other guy wondered why they stopped playing . Reason? -they had trouble getting their group together often enough.
...

Things vary by region, but exceptions do not invalidate the general trend.

Most of us who have been to various Cons throughout the years know via our lying eyes that in general Black Americans are a minority in RPG land.

Just like we know that female gamers are still a minority of the player base. Roughly around 1/3 or so.

In My Sunday group 3 out of 4 players are female. Basically the reverse demo of most RPG groups out there.

Does that make the general trend for female players BS?

No. It just means that my group is an outlier.

Quote from: Jaeger on March 14, 2022, 02:25:14 PM
Just like we know that female gamers are still a minority of the player base. Roughly around 1/3 or so.

In My Sunday group 3 out of 4 players are female. Basically the reverse demo of most RPG groups out there.

Does that make the general trend for female players BS?

No. It just means that my group is an outlier.

Well I for one am beginning to wonder about this. Whence this "knowledge" about the percentage of the female player base? WoTC surveys or something? Because it seems like anyone who brings it up (since about 1990) has a different demographic at their table.

Quote from: Zalman on March 14, 2022, 07:03:04 PM

Quote from: Jaeger on March 14, 2022, 02:25:14 PM
Just like we know that female gamers are still a minority of the player base. Roughly around 1/3 or so.

In My Sunday group 3 out of 4 players are female. Basically the reverse demo of most RPG groups out there.

Does that make the general trend for female players BS?

No. It just means that my group is an outlier.

Well I for one am beginning to wonder about this. Whence this "knowledge" about the percentage of the female player base? WoTC surveys or something? Because it seems like anyone who brings it up (since about 1990) has a different demographic at their table.

Thats because there IS a different demographic at every table.
But the SJWs love to cry that EVERY table needs to collect one of every whatever they are championing this time. Usually LGBT and Women, and their pet minority, and oh one of those cripples.

Every time. Homogenize everything. But then next iteration start screaming again that everyones Wacist and we have to fix this problem and get more XYZ into everything because gotta catch em all.

I saw this video a few weeks back and commented on it. I thought it was a fantastic video

Why does it matter?

Geeky is both right and wrong, in a sense.

He's wrong because D&D's shift didn't occur in a vacuum. It wasn't JUST the argument about chainmail bikinis (as I've noted myself, there are perfectly good and practical reasons to argue against those). Keep in mind all this is happening as the culture overall is being infested with performance virtue, participation trophies, and stupid amounts of bigotry masquerading as antiracism. Remove that burgeoning cultural bullshit and the chainmail bikini argument becomes a minor contention and footnote in history.

But if you don't think D&D has been shitted up by the zeitgeist, I really don't know what to tell you, other than 'did you miss the fucking discussion about how WotC was rewriting monsters to not be evil'?

Quote from: Ghostmaker on March 15, 2022, 11:09:43 AMIt wasn't JUST the argument about chainmail bikinis (as I've noted myself, there are perfectly good and practical reasons to argue against those).

Except these "arguments" are just more moral busybodying. Which is why it gets so much resistance. The more you try to censor, the more resistance builds.

Quote from: Omega on March 15, 2022, 02:21:20 PM

Quote from: Ghostmaker on March 15, 2022, 11:09:43 AMIt wasn't JUST the argument about chainmail bikinis (as I've noted myself, there are perfectly good and practical reasons to argue against those).

Except these "arguments" are just more moral busybodying. Which is why it gets so much resistance. The more you try to censor, the more resistance builds.

And even when they're genuine arguments about "realism" and whatnot, they tend to be asenine and fall into the category of "who gives a shit?" Outside of very specific contexts that largely apply only to a specific group's table (like historical accuracy), worrying about Bikini Armor tends to be mostly about wrongbadfun.

But in the larger cultural context, the people who advance this type of argument and actually get heard tend to be religious nuts or feminists (but I repeat myself ). Or rarely "what about the children?!?" But that's just more moralizing and usually motivated by moral sensibilities inspired by religion or feminism, using children as a shield.

Quote from: Ghostmaker on March 15, 2022, 11:09:43 AM
Keep in mind all this is happening as the culture overall is being infested with performance virtue, participation trophies, and stupid amounts of bigotry masquerading as antiracism. Remove that burgeoning cultural bullshit and the chainmail bikini argument becomes a minor contention and footnote in history.

But if you don't think D&D has been shitted up by the zeitgeist, I really don't know what to tell you, other than 'did you miss the fucking discussion about how WotC was rewriting monsters to not be evil'?

D&D has certainly been affected by the zeitgeist, but I think it's often overstated how much. I've played D&D at conventions since I was a teenager in the 1980s, and I still play and run D&D 5e at local conventions now. There has been some gradual shift in style, but it's not that different. It's still going around and killing evil monsters in primarily Tolkienesque settings.

Claims about "now monsters aren't evil" are like the claims that now the combat wheelchair is official and all published dungeons are wheelchair accessible. There is virtually no sign of this in the published gaming material.

As an aside about demographics:

Quote from: Zalman on March 14, 2022, 07:03:04 PM
Well I for one am beginning to wonder about this. Whence this "knowledge" about the percentage of the female player base? WoTC surveys or something? Because it seems like anyone who brings it up (since about 1990) has a different demographic at their table.

Individual tables definitely vary, as does participation at different conventions from year to year - but there is still some reasonable projections. The 1999 WotC survey is the most accurate snapshot of gamers, but its numbers roughly fit with other measures. Dragon magazine has had readership surveys, for example - which was discussed in Gary Alan Fine's 1983 book "Shared Fantasy" that looked at the demographics of players.

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/395345.Shared_Fantasy

I put together some sources here:

https://darkshire.net/jhkim/rpg/whatis/demographics.html

Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 14, 2022, 02:51:17 AM

Quote from: Ratman_tf on March 14, 2022, 01:23:31 AM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 14, 2022, 12:07:11 AM

Quote from: Cat the Bounty Smuggler on March 13, 2022, 11:40:56 PM
I agree with Fheredin: D&D and other major brands are expensive, not roleplaying in general. At least, not anymore. Basic Fantasy's not only free to download, you can get physical copies at cost, and there are a bunch of adventures for it, also for free or at cost.

BUT...

Who knows those games? Mostly those who are already part of the hobby.

Basic D&D PDF is less than 4 bucks on drivethrurpg.

https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/110274/DD-Basic-Set-Rulebook-B-X-ed-Basic?src=hottest_filtered

Going Brick and Mortar, we have the essentials kit for 13 bucks.

https://www.amazon.com/Dungeons-Dragons-Essentials-Kit-Boxed/dp/0786966831/ref=asc_df_0786966831/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=366418875758&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=17548282611176089342&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9033278&hvtargid=pla-813156597836&psc=1&tag=&ref=&adgrpid=78795693080&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvadid=366418875758&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=17548282611176089342&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9033278&hvtargid=pla-813156597836

More importantly, why aren't we talking about diversity in the model train community? [/s] I think most "lack of X" in gaming can be tracked to how it was viewed as a weird, nerdy thing that losers did in their basement because they couldn't get chicks.
That has changed drastically over the years, to where Vin Diesel mentions playing D&D, or Henry Cavil mentions being a 40k fan, and it's seen as quirky and not pathetic.

*Edit*

Ok, I scrolled down on the amazon essentials link and, well...

*big pic snipped*

You jest but the loccust has been working on Train modellers for a while.

https://www.cbs58.com/news/exclusive-racist-train-model-sparks-change-in-policy-at-trainfest

I raised my eyebrow at that diorama myself. Cops drawing guns on a bunch of black people hanging out.... maybe a bit tone deaf at a model train convention thing.