Quote from: Ruprecht on March 13, 2022, 01:28:38 PM
There are black game designers and their products have not made much of a dent in the black community as far as I can tell. Perhaps the black community has other interests.

Well obviously, but, the black community, being made up off humans, should follow closely enough what other communities are interested in:

Everybody plays basketball with their friends no matter the race.

So, having ruled out race as a factor, we're left with culture, black american culture to be especific. So what in said culture makes it less likely than in any other X american culture to get involved in the hobby?

Besides the reasons the author of the video mentions I would also include money. The hobby IS expensive as fuck.

Yet we don't see ANY of the D.I.E. advocates funding the development of a less expensive/free game that can be played with cheaper dice and making available whatever other parafernalia is needed either for free or at cost for the poor communities.

Assuming the not fantasy thing is real, then they do have options, Cepheus engine for instance, so they need to fund the making of paper miniatures for free for those communities, go and give out free copies of the game to the people they manage to have sit and play a session.

But that would mean REALLY wanting to increase the "Muh Representashun!", hard work/money and probably loosing one lever to exert political power.

Quote from: Ruprecht on March 13, 2022, 01:28:38 PM
There are black game designers and their products have not made much of a dent in the black community as far as I can tell. Perhaps the black community has other interests.

More the problem is because the black community marks these black designer made games as "white". And bully others into not playing.

This has been a problem for a long time now and insinuated by prior iterations of the SJW cult.

Quote from: Ruprecht on March 13, 2022, 01:28:38 PM
There are black game designers and their products have not made much of a dent in the black community as far as I can tell. Perhaps the black community has other interests.

From what I've noticed; black people are passionate about sports, music, movies, eating good food, and chasing tail.  They love their automobiles, too.  RPGs must compete, for their time and interest.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 13, 2022, 01:59:55 PM
...
Besides the reasons the author of the video mentions I would also include money. The hobby IS expensive as fuck.
...

Really only to the GM. And one could make the case that the cost is largely front loaded. As over time the gaming hours provided by 3 core books works out to be far less that if you were into model trains for example.

Players essentially play for free.

But I do agree that for some groups that front-loaded cost is relatively bigger than for others.

Quote from: Jam The MF on March 13, 2022, 03:29:50 PM

Quote from: Ruprecht on March 13, 2022, 01:28:38 PM
There are black game designers and their products have not made much of a dent in the black community as far as I can tell. Perhaps the black community has other interests.

From what I've noticed; black people are passionate about sports, music, movies, eating good food, and chasing tail.  They love their automobiles, too.  RPGs must compete, for their time and interest.

RPG's have always been a niche hobby, even within its predominant demographic, and it still is, D&D's recent success not withstanding. MtG still does twice D&D's numbers for WotC...

I think that RPG's hit at the right time to gain a foothold among the predominant population of the US.

For demographics where it failed to establish that foothold; It now has much more competition for people 's leisure time than it did in the past. In addition to cultural differences that can sway ones choices for leisure activities.

Ultimately "Not that many Black Americans play RPG's." comes down to: So what?

Someone considered a "minority" playing an RPG is just a thing that happens. It is not a virtue in and of itself.

Nor should it be. Because we have seen how it invariably gets pushed within the hobby by people with ulterior motives.

RPG's have always been #Inclusive. I have yet to hear of a single credible instance where someone was turned away from a gaming table due to their race, religion, sex, or orientation.

You just can't force a past-time on people who have largely already made other choices...

I grew up in south Georgia in 50% black schools and there's a big stigma among black people not to seem too white. That's why so many black kids had Sega Genesis instead of Super Nintendo. The Genesis had the best versions of Mortal Kombat and NBA Jam and the SNES had nerdy white kid games in their eyes. Anything nerdy = white including D&D. This persists to this day 25 years later. Look at how many black players are in fighting game tournaments compared with say, real time strategy. Its a completely different demographic.

Quote from: Shawn Driscoll on March 12, 2022, 01:00:20 PMI already said my peace in the video's comment section. But in a nutshell, 95% of blacks don't see a black role-model (TTRPG gamer) that they can then copy/join.

I think you've stumbled upon a problem that I've seen for a long time. RPGs are an entertainment product. No one should need a "role-model" in order to play an RPG, anymore than they need a role-model before they play Monopoly or Poker. All RPGs are written for an audience that already knows how an RPG works. Even so called intro box sets don't really explain the actual process of being a player nor of what a DM needs to do to run a successful and entertaining game.

As it stands now, people learn how to play RPGs by watching others play which is how so many bad ideas propagate.

Quote from: VisionStorm on March 13, 2022, 09:46:56 AM
Part of the problem is the idea that we somehow HAVE to get black people interested in RPGs, or that lack of interest in RPGs in the black American community is somehow reflective of RPGs themselves, as opposed to black American culture or personal preferences.

The video is made by a black guy who wants more black people to participate in his hobby. I can find no fault in that.

Quote from: Accaris on March 13, 2022, 06:57:33 PM
I grew up in south Georgia in 50% black schools and there's a big stigma among black people not to seem too white. That's why so many black kids had Sega Genesis instead of Super Nintendo.

This amuses the hell out of me.

Quote from: Accaris on March 13, 2022, 06:57:33 PM
I grew up in south Georgia in 50% black schools and there's a big stigma among black people not to seem too white. That's why so many black kids had Sega Genesis instead of Super Nintendo. The Genesis had the best versions of Mortal Kombat and NBA Jam and the SNES had nerdy white kid games in their eyes. Anything nerdy = white including D&D. This persists to this day 25 years later. Look at how many black players are in fighting game tournaments compared with say, real time strategy. Its a completely different demographic.

I knew of this issue long before ever seeing the video, (which is why I talked about confirmation biases) and for the life of me I can't wrap my head around the idea that some hobby can be "white" or whatever other race you care to mention.

Here in México the division is more of a class one, with certain hobbies being seen as rich ppl stuff, sometimes rightly so (model trains, WH40K among others come to mind). Which makes it possible to induct someone into a hobby IF a cheaper alternative is available.

Among the projects in my backburner is a cheap wargame, trying to have very little pages and to include paper minis. Just to see if the poorer kids are interested but unable to play, When I finish it my plan is to print a bunch of copies and go to poor neighborhoods/schools and donate them. Maybe around Christmass so they get a little something from Santa.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 13, 2022, 08:56:05 PM

Quote from: Accaris on March 13, 2022, 06:57:33 PM
I grew up in south Georgia in 50% black schools and there's a big stigma among black people not to seem too white. That's why so many black kids had Sega Genesis instead of Super Nintendo. The Genesis had the best versions of Mortal Kombat and NBA Jam and the SNES had nerdy white kid games in their eyes. Anything nerdy = white including D&D. This persists to this day 25 years later. Look at how many black players are in fighting game tournaments compared with say, real time strategy. Its a completely different demographic.

I knew of this issue long before ever seeing the video, (which is why I talked about confirmation biases) and for the life of me I can't wrap my head around the idea that some hobby can be "white" or whatever other race you care to mention.

Here in México the division is more of a class one, with certain hobbies being seen as rich ppl stuff, sometimes rightly so (model trains, WH40K among others come to mind). Which makes it possible to induct someone into a hobby IF a cheaper alternative is available.

Among the projects in my backburner is a cheap wargame, trying to have very little pages and to include paper minis. Just to see if the poorer kids are interested but unable to play, When I finish it my plan is to print a bunch of copies and go to poor neighborhoods/schools and donate them. Maybe around Christmass so they get a little something from Santa.

Well, it could have been that the Genesis was $99 and the SNES was $199. But that excuse seems almost a little racist to me, as realistic as it seems. There were definitely financial considerations. But Sega marketed their console to be as "cool" as possible. And black people only ever wanted to be "cool." If you weren't cool you were almost an outcast to them. Anything "badass" was cool, man, like Mortal Kombat. Or even Sonic the Hedgehog. I mean I liked Mortal Kombat too, but I was into Zelda and Final Fantasy. Nerd stuff. Black kids didn't like that. They almost universally wanted nothing to do with it, because it wasn't "cool." And that's where the racial lines got drawn.

Quote from: Accaris on March 13, 2022, 09:03:37 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 13, 2022, 08:56:05 PM

Quote from: Accaris on March 13, 2022, 06:57:33 PM
I grew up in south Georgia in 50% black schools and there's a big stigma among black people not to seem too white. That's why so many black kids had Sega Genesis instead of Super Nintendo. The Genesis had the best versions of Mortal Kombat and NBA Jam and the SNES had nerdy white kid games in their eyes. Anything nerdy = white including D&D. This persists to this day 25 years later. Look at how many black players are in fighting game tournaments compared with say, real time strategy. Its a completely different demographic.

I knew of this issue long before ever seeing the video, (which is why I talked about confirmation biases) and for the life of me I can't wrap my head around the idea that some hobby can be "white" or whatever other race you care to mention.

Here in México the division is more of a class one, with certain hobbies being seen as rich ppl stuff, sometimes rightly so (model trains, WH40K among others come to mind). Which makes it possible to induct someone into a hobby IF a cheaper alternative is available.

Among the projects in my backburner is a cheap wargame, trying to have very little pages and to include paper minis. Just to see if the poorer kids are interested but unable to play, When I finish it my plan is to print a bunch of copies and go to poor neighborhoods/schools and donate them. Maybe around Christmass so they get a little something from Santa.

Well, it could have been that the Genesis was $99 and the SNES was $199. But that excuse seems almost a little racist to me, as realistic as it seems. There were definitely financial considerations. But Sega marketed their console to be as "cool" as possible. And black people only ever wanted to be "cool." If you weren't cool you were almost an outcast to them. Anything "badass" was cool, man, like Mortal Kombat. Or even Sonic the Hedgehog. I mean I liked Mortal Kombat too, but I was into Zelda and Final Fantasy. Nerd stuff. Black kids didn't like that. They almost universally wanted nothing to do with it, because it wasn't "cool." And that's where the racial lines got drawn.

Well, to be fair, up until recently (and how I wish we went back to the old days) NOBODY liked the nerd stuff, nobody but us nerds that is.

Quote from: Jaeger on March 13, 2022, 04:04:39 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 13, 2022, 01:59:55 PM
...
Besides the reasons the author of the video mentions I would also include money. The hobby IS expensive as fuck.
...

Really only to the GM. And one could make the case that the cost is largely front loaded. As over time the gaming hours provided by 3 core books works out to be far less that if you were into model trains for example.

Players essentially play for free.

But I do agree that for some groups that front-loaded cost is relatively bigger than for others.

Quote from: Jam The MF on March 13, 2022, 03:29:50 PM

Quote from: Ruprecht on March 13, 2022, 01:28:38 PM
There are black game designers and their products have not made much of a dent in the black community as far as I can tell. Perhaps the black community has other interests.

From what I've noticed; black people are passionate about sports, music, movies, eating good food, and chasing tail.  They love their automobiles, too.  RPGs must compete, for their time and interest.

RPG's have always been a niche hobby, even within its predominant demographic, and it still is, D&D's recent success not withstanding. MtG still does twice D&D's numbers for WotC...

I think that RPG's hit at the right time to gain a foothold among the predominant population of the US.

For demographics where it failed to establish that foothold; It now has much more competition for people 's leisure time than it did in the past. In addition to cultural differences that can sway ones choices for leisure activities.

Ultimately "Not that many Black Americans play RPG's." comes down to: So what?

Someone considered a "minority" playing an RPG is just a thing that happens. It is not a virtue in and of itself.

Nor should it be. Because we have seen how it invariably gets pushed within the hobby by people with ulterior motives.

RPG's have always been #Inclusive. I have yet to hear of a single credible instance where someone was turned away from a gaming table due to their race, religion, sex, or orientation.

You just can't force a past-time on people who have largely already made other choices...

I don't think you understand why I am sympathetic in this particular situation; sure, we can't force roleplaying on blacks, but I also lament the struggles specifically black players who want to roleplay have. I have enough trouble finding a group. It would be flat out impossible if I were black living in a historically black area. And soft apartheid exists everywhere.

That said, I discard the premise that RPGs are an expensive hobby outright; D&D is expensive because it expects you to buy a dozen books before playing. Miniatures are also expensive because they require special equipment and storage considerations. Beyond that, only a few of the other top-name games in the industry are particularly expensive; there are dozens of good games out there which are something between dirt cheap and free, and some of the best campaigns I've been part of were in the 60% homebrew range, with some literally being 100% with custom core mechanics. The only mandatory cost is dice, and even that can be cheated a bit, as you can split a deck of cards up to emulate most polyhedral dice (with the exception of a D20 unless you mark cards).

The Savage Worlds core rulebook costs $10 as a PDF, and that's really all you need to play. Printing out the most used sections will cost you another $10, and you can get 5 sets of dice for another $10, so your total entry cost for one of the best generics in the industry is $30. That's really not much to ask.

D&D is expensive, and a few other systems are expensive. And of course being a collector with a big game library is expensive. But otherwise...RPGs are really bloody cheap to play.

Oh Bullshit - I call bullshit on this.

When the Game Store was still pen we had plenty of black customers browsing and buying both tabletop RPGs and comic books.
For a while I believe there was one Pathfinder group that ALL African American, wait I think they had one white guy playing.

Heck, I remember one time browsing a video game magazine for illustrations to use in my GURPS Traveller game. Two youngish black guys near me asked what I was talking about. I told them it was sc fi roleplaying game. One of them said "OH like Dungeons and Dragons." I said yes and the other guy wondered why they stopped playing . Reason? -they had trouble getting their group together often enough.

- Ed C.

Quote from: Koltar on March 13, 2022, 10:37:56 PM
Oh Bullshit - I call bullshit on this.

When the Game Store was still pen we had plenty of black customers browsing and buying both tabletop RPGs and comic books.
For a while I believe there was one Pathfinder group that ALL African American, wait I think they had one white guy playing.

Heck, I remember one time browsing a video game magazine for illustrations to use in my GURPS Traveller game. Two youngish black guys near me asked what I was talking about. I told them it was sc fi roleplaying game. One of them said "OH like Dungeons and Dragons." I said yes and the other guy wondered why they stopped playing . Reason? -they had trouble getting their group together often enough.

- Ed C.

"My anecdotal experience trumps the anecdotal experience of everybody else" Koltar 2022

I agree with Fheredin: D&D and other major brands are expensive, not roleplaying in general. At least, not anymore. Basic Fantasy's not only free to download, you can get physical copies at cost, and there are a bunch of adventures for it, also for free or at cost.